This Just Disgusts Me..

[MJN2]

If you want to bash the gov't for the military acting in Iraq in Afghanistan, fine. But dammit, taking cheaps shots at a dead man, no matter who he is, makes me sick. Maybe it's the fact I'm ex-military and grew up a military brat, and having a slightly over-developed sense of patriotism, but this just makes me want to deck the person that wrote this. http://www.dailycollegian.com/...ve=1. Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to himBy Rene Gonzalez April 28, 2004When the death of Pat Tillman occurred, I turned to my friend who was watching the news with me and said, "How much you want to bet they start talking about him as a 'hero' in about two hours?" Of course, my friend did not want to make that bet. He'd lose. In this self-critical incapable nation, nothing but a knee-jerk "He's a hero" response is to be expected.I've been mystified at the absolute nonsense of being in "awe" of Tillman's "sacrifice" that has been the American response. Mystified, but not surprised. True, it's not everyday that you forgo a $3.6 million contract for joining the military. And, not just the regular army, but the elite Army Rangers. You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the "real" thick of things. I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish. Even Rambo got shot in the third movie, but in real life, you die as a result of being shot. They should call Pat Tillman's army life "Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed."But, does that make him a hero? I guess it's a matter of perspective. For people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than take from it. It's the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it's understandable why Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship.However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a "pendejo," an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic idiocy.Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert himself into a conflict he didn't need to insert himself into. It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his "service" was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.Perhaps it's the old, dreamy American thought process that forces them to put sports greats and "larger than life" sacrificial lambs on the pedestal of heroism, no matter what they've done. After all, the American nation has no other role to play but to be the cheerleaders of the home team; a sad role to have to play during conflicts that suffer from severe legitimacy and credibility problems.Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he shouldn't be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda bull. It might just make a regular man irrationally drop $3.6 million to go fight in a conflict that was anything but "self-defense." The same could be said of the unusual belief of 50 percent of the American nation that thinks Saddam Hussein was behind Sept. 11. One must indeed stand in awe of the amazing success of the American propaganda machine. It works wonders.Al-Qaeda won't be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be defeated. Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the Palestinian resistance. For that reason, Tillman's service, along with that of thousands of American soldiers, has been wrongly utilized. He did die in vain, because in the years to come, we will realize the irrationality of the War on Terror and the American reaction to Sept. 11. The sad part is that we won't realize it before we send more people like Pat Tillman over to their deaths.

[Fformula88]

Although I do not agree with all he says in that article, he does make a couple points. Unfortunately, they get drowned out by what is otherwise one big rant.He says what Tillman did isn't heroic, and he isn't a hero, partly based on the fact we shouldn't be in Afghanistan. Well, thats hogwash. It took a lot of guts for the man to join the Army Rangers after a war had been started to go fight in it. Sure it may have been motivated by Rambo-like asperations, but he thought it was his patriotic duty to fight those who attacked us and gave his life for that cause. Sounds herioc to me. Lumping Afghanistan and Iraq together is unfair too. Very different circumstances surround the two, and I think even most anti-Iraq war people would agree going into Afghanistan was necessary. His good point? Maybe I am extrapolating this a little from what he said, but he seems upset that this attention was given to Tillman, meanwhile the everyday GI over there is not given hours worth of praise as heros for dying over there. I too do not like response to Tillman's death in that it seems to make him sound like more of a hero, and more worthy of praise for his deeds than the other soldiers over there. Sure he walked away from huge money and didn't have to go. But that doesn't mean someone walking away from an ordinary life is really giving up anything less, or isn't being as Patriotic doing so. I do not think it was the intent of that attention to underscore everyone elses sacrafices, but they do not get this kind of praise as a hero, so it does tend to downplay their sacrafice. Everyone who dies over there gives up their life, their future, and their family for what they believe to be a greater good. It shouldn't matter what their occupation or income was before going to war. OUr country asked them to and they went. They are all heros.His article wreaks of Vietnam where blame for the war was placed on the soldiers. If he doesn't like these "occupations" or whatever he wants to call them, that is one thing. It doesn't mean it is the soldiers fault. He can hate Bush for it if he wants, but the soldiers are just doing what they have been asked to do for their country. That makes them patriots and heros, not idiots. This writer could have done a more thoughtful peace, but instead he made himself look like the idiot.

[SGT]

The writer of that article is the pendejo if you ask me. You may or may not agree with why our government has our military fighting in these places around the world but anyone who doesn't have any respect for the service people and the sacrifices that they are making for the USA is pretty pathetic. Everyone in the armed services are heros in my opinion.

[rasermon]

I hate to say this, but that's how most of the liberals think. I'm happy to say there is no "L" painted on my chest.God bless our soldiers and respect them.

[dsegundo]

The thing that makes this the worst is this schmuck is here in our country enjoying our freedoms. His country is also under our protection. Maybe he should go back home then....This guy has me all worked up....

[joatmon]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/...92673

[MJN2]

Here is the full text of his "apology"I wrote an article entitled "Patrick Tillman is not a hero", in which I triedto contradict the American society viewpoint that Pat Tillman was a hero for hisservice in Afghanistan. I disagree with the conflicts that he took place in,but that's not why I did not think he was a hero. I thought (and still think)that there is an unhealthy tendency in the American public to knee-jerk intohero worship, but instead of persuading people to look at this issue, I justinflamed the hero worship and the situation. Re-reading my words, I did come tothe conclusion that my words were inflammatory and tainted the meaning of myarticle. I do admit I was partly sarcastic on an issue that seems to be dear toa lot of people. I did not write my words with sufficient "politicalcorrectness" to make them palatable. For the insensitivity, I apologize.I mean no disrespect to the family of Patrick Tillman, and I would be verydistraught to learn they were hurt by my comments. That was not my intent. Myintent was to open up a debate on whether or not serving in the U.S. military isa de facto reason for considering someone a hero. I've been quite bothered bythe continued calling of U.S. soldiers as "heroes", especially in conflicts thatI find nothing to be proud of.Regardless of that, I stated clearly that if Pat Tillman had been defending theEast coast of the United States from invasion, I would have thought his serviceto be heroic and laudable. I think the same of soldiers who fought in conflictslike World War II. However, I'm not proud of dishonorable Americaninterventions throughout history (Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Puerto Rico, Nicaragua,Haiti, Grenada, Panama, The Phillippines, Iraq 2004), and I adamantly refuse toconsider soldiers in those wars, heroes. Every American intervention and everyAmerican soldier's action is not automatically heroic, and that was my point. Each case must be examined critically, and I don't feel the American public isundertaking any critical examination of the legitimacy of the conflicts inAfghanistan and Iraq, nor the legitimacy of the actions of the troops there.I did learn one lesson, though: there is freedom of speech in this country, butnot much toleration for its expression. Freedom of speech exists only for thosethat parrot the "party line". For those that even peep a dissent, only scorn isawaiting them.I hope this letter clears up the misconceptions that have arisen. My criticismwas not for Patrick Tillman (who may have been the most honorable man alive) orhis family, or even soldiers serving the United States today. It is to thesociety back home, which seems to be unable to distinguish between honorableAmerican interventions and honorable American soldiers, and soldiers who servedin dishonorable interventions and, therefore, dishonored themselves. And, forthe reasons outlined above, I cannot support troops that have dishonoredthemselves by serving in a dishonorable war, and much less consider them heroes.Rene L. Gonzalez Berrios, M.A.Political Science / University of Massachusettsrene@student.umass.edu --

[Stang2Vibe]

HAHAHA! This kid is a total jacka$$ who has his head so far up his own "tailpipe" that he may never see the light of day again! Typical liberal blowhard who is also the unfortunate result of what happens when you let MTV raise your children instead of real, thinking, human parents. I've seen Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity both rip into this kid on TV and heard it on the radio. Good. You wanna open up your mouth and reveal your empty head to the whole world, go right ahead you little puke, but don't go crying to the liberal media pundits and make a pathetic attempt at backtracking when you get your own bullets fired back at you. Man I would LOVE to debate this punk. I'd have his arguements going in circles so fast that he'd have motion sickness.Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »I disagree with the conflicts that he took place in,but that's not why I did not think he was a hero.LIAR LIAR pants on fire!!! My BS detector went into an overload on this comment. Well, idiot, I suppose that if you approved of the conflict that you would have still wrote the article anyway? Ha ha, that was good, please tell me another one!Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »I've been quite bothered bythe continued calling of U.S. soldiers as "heroes", especially in conflicts that I find nothing to be proud of.Ha, you fool, and there is the proof, in your own writing that what I last said was true and that you are a self-righteous liar. Man, those liberal media pundits have their work cut out for them. It's going to be tough to train you how to spin your statements so that you don't contradict yourself after every ten lines. Appearantly, you can't pay attention to yourself long enough to put together a solid and coherent arguement. Doesn't seem to matter much though, many Americans (and others from around the world for that matter) will suck up all this fallacious drivel and bask in the stupidity that they create. I believe that it was Josef Goebbels (Hitler's infamous Nazi propaganda administrator) who said "if you tell a big lie over and over again, it will eventually become the truth". Seems to be the preferred method for education and news broadcasting in this country.Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »I do admit I was partly sarcastic on an issue that seems to be dear toa lot of people. I did not write my words with sufficient "politicalcorrectness" to make them palatable. For the insensitivity, I apologize.Words that you will never ever EVER hear coming from me. He can't take the heat that he put on himself and now he's trying to relieve some of the pressure. I say pin him to the ropes and don't let up. Let's bust these lies wide open.Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »I mean no disrespect to the family of Patrick Tillman, and I would be verydistraught to learn they were hurt by my comments.Lies, lies, and more lies again. You knew darn well what your words would do to the Tillman family and you chose to print them anyway. Why is he not being lambasted from every direction for being insensitive? Oh, wait, I forgot. If you're a liberal you get a free pass on all insensitve statements as long as the insensitivity is directed at those who oppose your views. Ok now that its all cleared up, we can continue.Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »I've been quite bothered bythe continued calling of U.S. soldiers as "heroes", especially in conflicts thatI find nothing to be proud of.Regardless of that, I stated clearly that if Pat Tillman had been defending theEast coast of the United States from invasion, I would have thought his serviceto be heroic and laudable.Oh boy. Do you have even 2 brain cells up there so they can kick each other in the a$$ and wake up? So I get it now. We can only defend ourselves once the enemy is so close that he will inevitably cause harm to this country. Lets not stop the bad guys from getting on the planes, lets just shoot them down with the innocent people on board once we realize that something has gone wrong with the flight. There's some award winning reasoning. I think this is the lack of attention span problem again. He can't remember long enough to connect historical events that occurred more than 1 year apart. There may be medication for this.Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »I think the same of soldiers who fought in conflictslike World War II. However, I'm not proud of dishonorable Americaninterventions throughout history (Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Puerto Rico, Nicaragua,Haiti, Grenada, Panama, The Phillippines, Iraq 2004), and I adamantly refuse toconsider soldiers in those wars, heroes.Oh I think the picture is getting clearer now. You can only support conflict that does not interfere with the spread of communism or oppressive regiemes. Well then aren't you the "outstanding American citizen of the year"? How very considerate of you to make sure that communist dictators and leaders of oppressive regiemes get a fair shake in the world theater. > You are the recipient of the Teresa Heinz Kerry scholarship award, are you not?Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »Every American intervention and everyAmerican soldier's action is not automatically heroic, and that was my point. You know what? You're right. But I guess the soldiers who get your approval are the ones like the crazy Muslim US soldier who turned his M16 on his fellow soldiers and shot them in the back as they fought a war along side him. Very noble and worthy of heroic icon status, I'm sure.Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »Each case must be examined critically, and I don't feel the American public isundertaking any critical examination of the legitimacy of the conflicts inAfghanistan and Iraq, nor the legitimacy of the actions of the troops there.Oh so you were elected as the spokesperson for the "American public"? And if others see things differently then you do, their reasoning is automatically not thought out and illegitimate? Man, keep this up and they'll be offering you an anchor job on "Nightline".Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »I did learn one lesson, though: there is freedom of speech in this country, butnot much toleration for its expression. Freedom of speech exists only for thosethat parrot the "party line". For those that even peep a dissent, only scorn isawaiting them.So now all of a sudden you're going to cry "partisanship"? Funny, you sound exactly like some of the leaders of a certain party that I know of. And yes, you are free to speak your mind, but others are likewise free to disagree with you. Obviously this concept hasn't sunk in yet. May I give you some advice? Transfer to another school, as I don't think that the instruction that you will receive from UMass will clear up these fundamental concepts for you. I'd be willing to bet that they have only contributed to yo
ur misdirection.Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »I hope this letter clears up the misconceptions that have arisen.Oh has it ever. Anyone who could have possibly mistook you for an American now knows you are a communist hypocrite exploiting his 15 minutes of fame. You've now gone into OT so would the man with the hook please pull this nut down off his soapbox?Quote, originally posted by MJN2 » My criticismwas not for Patrick Tillman (who may have been the most honorable man alive) orhis family, or even soldiers serving the United States today.Yes it was. Plain and simple. Quit lying and contradicting yourself because you are making yourself look more and more like the fool that you are.Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »It is to thesociety back home, which seems to be unable to distinguish between honorableAmerican interventions and honorable American soldiers, and soldiers who servedin dishonorable interventions and, therefore, dishonored themselves.Oh, so it is me then. I'm not capable of recognizing that defending my homeland from crazed extremists, socialism, and the other derelicts in the world as well as freeing the people of a long oppressed nation is dishonorable and illigitimate. Thanks for making it even more clear what your true agenda is.Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »And, forthe reasons outlined above, I cannot support troops that have dishonoredthemselves by serving in a dishonorable war, and much less consider them heroes.Oh, so they are just supposed to refuse to follow orders then? Run to Canada where they will be coddled by the media and possibly the government? Seems that you have no concept of what the rules and regulations of the US military are. Well then why don't you put your money where your mouth is and sign up for the military and then refuse to follow your orders. Maybe then things will be a little more clear for you.Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »Rene L. Gonzalez Berrios, M.A.Political Science / University of Massachusetts/Blowhard Anti-American Idiot on a Soapboxrene@student.umass.edu There. Thats better.

[goodvibe]

This guy is a jerk for defaming someone that decided to fight for his country after 9/11 for no other reason than his desire to do what he believed to be the right thing. By not taking the money, Tillman and his family made a huge sacrifice by choice. It doesn't compare to losing a loved one but it was extremely noble to put defending our country whether on our shores or not above all else. I am moderate but take it easy on liberals. Obviously this anti-hero sentiment will come from the left. but painting all liberals with this same brush is just silly. Over half of the soldiers fighting on foot in Iraq would be considered liberal. 'A' is a liberal. 'A' is a jerk. All liberals are jerks. Thats the wrong answer in an IQ test.

[Vibe Rater]

Quote, originally posted by MJN2 »Here is the full text of his "apology"Apology not accepted.

[Vibe Rater]

Sadly, Rene Gonzalez would be welcomed in Canada as a hero, by the bleeding heart Liberal dirtbag government and media. He'll surely end up in a grossly over paid government position, spewing his nonsense. Like the most recent fiasco of many, a Heritage Department employee from Quebec (her name escapes me at the moment), who, it was discovered, is the President of an organization in Quebec dedicated to the separation of Quebec from Canada. Heritage Canada is dedicated to keeping Canada together. She saw no conflict in her positions, remains puzzled as to why she was dismissed and will no doubt file a lawsuit and win millions for wrongful dismissal. Hypocracy runs amuck. Rene Gonzalez is also a hypocrite in the 1st degree. No doubt, even Americans have heard of the recent inexcusable scandals, involving the Liberal governement up to their eyeballs. Greed, corruption, outright theft, incompetence, arrogance, stupidity, mismanagement, blatant lies, more arrogance and hypocracy like never seen before. Yet, the most recent polls show the stinking Liberals would win another majority, if an election was held today. Rene Gonzalez's kind of place for sure. C'mon up.

[Stang2Vibe]

Quote, originally posted by goodvibe »'A' is a liberal. 'A' is a jerk. All liberals are jerks. Thats the wrong answer in an IQ test.Unless it is me who is grading the test . But seriously, I fully understand your statement here and I agree with your statement of logic. I also believe that Sean Hannity summed up my feelings on this on his radio show when he said "I love liberals, I really do, but I just don't want them in positions of power".The thoughts of this student that he wrote and had printed regarding Pat Tillman are those that are commonly voiced by liberals in this country. There is no use in defending this rationale and this guy is now surely a new huge darling to the leftists in America today. These people are dead-set on undermining everything that America stands for and all that is good in this country. They will stop at nothing to accomplish this goal no matter how shameful the tactic may be. This is also why Dr. Michael Savage has correctly labeled them as "The Enemy Within".

[Stang2Vibe]

Quote, originally posted by Vibe Rater »Sadly, Rene Gonzalez would be welcomed in Canada as a hero, by the bleeding heart Liberal dirtbag government and media. ...Yet, the most recent polls show the stinking Liberals would win another majority, if an election was held today. Rene Gonzalez's kind of place for sure. C'mon up.Oh, you didn't know that Canada is a secret US government operation? Looks like everything is going according to plan. We need to get as many left-wing nutballs packed into as small an area as possible at the same time so we can nuke 'em. BTW--Fox News is reporting this afternoon that the President of UMass has issued a statement calling this student's writing "disgusting, arrogant, and immature" among other things. I guess this means that he will automatically be graduating with high honors now.

[joatmon]

the writer of that article was in the wrong, but what really pisses me off is the torture of Iraqi prisoners by the US. That's not what we are supposed to be like. We were supposed to be the good guys. Stuff like that destroys our credibility when we claim the moral high ground. Only time will tell what damage they have done, but I fear that Americans are less safe as a result of the actions of a few idiots.

[rasermon]

Quote from http://www.MichNews.comUltimately, it is a question of our responsibility. If someone violates your freedom, you will fight to defend it. But if someone takes away your responsibility, you will be indifferent to the coming seizure of freedom. I worry more about the loss of responsibility in my generation than I do about the loss of freedom itself. Rene Gonzalez stand for an America without duty, honor, and heroism. But as long as there are Pat Tillmans in America, we can survive.