tranny Fluid change

[cool vibes]

I'm considering changing my manual tranny fluid to Royal Purple or something else on the market to see if there would be a difference in shifting?

[cybotron]

I switched to #12346190 fluid .. Which is a GM branded CASTROL SYNTORQ and it makes all the diff in the world. My vibe shifts smooth and 90% of the notchy scrapes are gone. It's like flicking a switch. I use mobile one in the 2zz and GM #12346190 in the trans....here is a thread research on syntorq...I believe that Castrol Syntorq LT is a 85W-90 gear lube, and it's GL-4 rated, something you want for a manual tranny. Not GL-5. GL-4 lubes usually contain 1/2 the additives sulfur and phosphorus, making them more friendly to synchros and bushings. Castrol Syntorq is difficult to find, and expensive. GM and Chrysler dealerships may sell it, but be prepared to pay upwards of $20 a quart for it. It's also available online from standardtransmission.com for $54 a gallon, plus shipping. Red Line makes a synthetic GL-4 manual transmission lube called MT90 for about $8 a quart....sorry for the mixup.

[joatmon]

Doesn't ATF mean AUtomatic Transmission Fluid? I thought automatic transmission fluid was a lot thinner than the gear oil in a manual transmission.

[Vibe Rater]

Yes, use synthetic oil in the tranny if you're going to change it. You'll probably never have to change it again.

[ragingfish]

Anyone wanna do a quick writeup on HOW to change the ATF?

[joatmon]

cool vibes was asking about a manual tranny , and cybotron said 2ZZ vibe which is a manual tranny. The manual tranny is supposd to get some pretty thick stuiff, 75W gear oil. Automatic transmission fluid is about as thin or thinner than the 5W engine oil. I would recommend staying with the proper weight of oil for the transmission. OK if you go synthetic, but I wouldn't put ATF in my manual transmission.

[Vibe Rater]

Good eye joatman. I didn't even notice that it was a manual. Definitely ATF would be a terrible mistake. I would still use the sythetic gear oil though.

[cybotron]

right it was manual synthetic. The invoice reads:Fluid Man 8.800 -qty 3 -unit price $20.19 ... total cost... $143.57

[cybotron]

I take the whole thing back It was not mobile one synthetic that was used. It was GM part # 12346190....here is some datahttp://www.ncrs.org/forum/tech.cgi/noframes/read/99587It appears to be a Castrol synthetic!!! Sold as a GM part 80w just as was said.a thread reads"...Todd----- I did a little more research on this one since responding to your e-mail. GM #12346190 is, indeed, the GM-branded Castrol Syntorq. It is a GL-4-rated and SAE 80 wt gear lube. It's possible that it's been uprated to GL-5 specs by now, too. I don't know that, for sure. The GM #12346190 is specified for use by GM on a wide range of later model vehicles with manual transmissions. 1988-91 Pontiac LeMans, Geo Prism, Geo Metro and trucks with MT8 manual transmission are some of the GM-specified applications. In any event, I'm sure that the fluid is also compatible with any of the applications which Castrol recommends for it.

[joatmon]

I'm glad it was gear oil and not ATF.

[Stang2Vibe]

So what oil comes stock in the manual tranny then? (For a 2ZZ) I thought it came with a synthetic from the factory. Not supposed to change for 100,000 miles or something?

[cybotron]

Who knows what comes stock? I noticed that i had knotchy shifts in the morning with a cold transaxle.... And that was in summer! So I swapped it out for a synthetic. I asked the dealer for the best synthetic, I thought I was getting mobile one. I had gone to murry's discount auto parts and the guy told me to use mobile one ATF... I 'm glad I went to the dealer as that was not the thing to do.GM #12346190 was put in, which turns out to be some of the best stuff in the world! Be careful. putting in the wrong thing can really hurt.

[cybotron]

Yeah..... section 7 part D calls for GM#12346190 which is Castrol Syntorq LT.... Is the other whats in there from the factory? Because there certainly was not a synthetic in there at the start.

[dmitri]

ok...i think im gonna go with red line synthetic manual trans lubricant.whats the difference between the MTL, and the MT-90? which should i get?

[cybotron]

Before you screw up check out tese threads...http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=6838

[cybotron]

do yourself a favor and use GM#12346190 which is Castrol Syntorq LT.LT is for Low Temp. See the thread...http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=6838

[dmitri]

can someone answer my question without babbling on about something else? and no, im not getting ripped off for that syntorq stuff. 20 dollars a quart? no.

[Vibe Rater]

quote:im not getting ripped off for that syntorq stuff. 20 dollars a quart? no.I would think all synthetics would cost about that much, give or take a buck or two. It's worth it in the long run. You'll never have to change it again probably.As for the original question (whats the difference between the MTL, and the MT-90? which should i get?), I don't know. Maybe Silverawd can help you with that.

[joatmon]

quote:ok...i think im gonna go with red line synthetic manual trans lubricant.whats the difference between the MTL, and the MT-90? which should i get?Looking at the redline web page at the link that silver provided, following into the "Our Products" page , select MTL from the drop down list, and the page says:quote:MTL® Manual Transmission Lubricant a 70W80 GL-4 gear oil (SAE 5W30/10W30 engine oil viscosity) designed for use in manual transmissions and transaxles. Provides excellent protection of gears and synchronizers and its balanced slipperiness provides a perfect coefficient of friction, allowing easier shifting.MT-90 Manual Transmission Lubricant a 75W90 GL-4 gear oil designed for use in manual transmissions and transaxles. Provides excellent protection of gears and synchronizers and its balanced slipperiness provides a perfect coefficient of friction, allowing easier shifting. The redline web page provides a link for a PDF of their manual tranny lubricants at http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/mtpds.pdf, but I didn't download it .Without digging any deeper, I would say that since the Vibe Owner's Manual says to use 75W90 gear oil, then that would man that if you chooose redline, the MT-90 matches the GM fluid spec. If it were my car and I wanted to put redline in there, I'd go with the 75W90 as spec'd by the manufacturer

[cybotron]

You know the problem here is that you CANNOT just go by weight or viscosity in regard to Lube for these GT trannys and that's what's being said, that viscosity is the primary issue and it's not.... Sulphur and parafin content is also an issue.... You put the wrong thing in, and you could end up like this guy in the thread.here is a thread with warnings about redline....Again the Vibe manual calls for GM#12346190 a GM branded Castrol Syntorq LT.... This is some of the best stuff in the world.http://www.audifans.com/archives/1995/0 ... 477.htmlbe careful.You get what you pay for.... If you put in the wrong thing Gm may void your warranty if your tranny breaks... The Syntorq is from europe and GM ans Chrysler have it all.

[joatmon]

I looked at the link you provided from the audi forum, and one guy had a problem, apparently his seals leaked which he claims was from using the MTL oil in his audi. Other folks posted replies that they have had no problems with redline Also that thread is eight years old. These trannies are tough, you could probably run butter in them for the short 36K miles that the warranty covers. (Note: Do not run replace your gear oil with butter) I wouldn't worry about voiding the warranty, but I would like mine to last as long as possible. For what it's worth, my 2003 Vibe Owner's Manual says in the Recommended Fluids section on page 7-44:quote:Manual Transaxle: GM Goodwrench Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid (GM Part No. U.S. 12346190, in Canada 10953477 - 1 quart) or SAE 75W-90 GL-5 gear oil.I haven't changed the oil in mine yet, but when I do I will go with a 75W90, probably a synthetic since that's all I hear here on genvibe. Maybe that 12346190 is already in there from the factory and if it's the best stuff in the world, then I won't bother changing it. It would be nice to know what's in there on a new Vibe, but if it was the 12346190, that wouldn't explain the improvements you felt when you had 12346190 put back in.I wonder what the recommended fluid is for the same transmission when it's installed in a MAtrix? Toyota transmission, I'd trust them to know better than GM what oil to use in it.Interesting comment on one of the posts in that thread you referenced, shows up at http://www.audifans.com/archives/1995/08/msg00493.html, where "tom" saysquote:I've been using Amsoil Gear Lube (75-90W) in various transaxles for years and have never had any problems, in street,race, or rally cars. Try it, you'll like. (but you'll probably hate the dealer.)I wonder what Derek (Admin II) would have to say about that last comment?

[dmitri]

today i got valvoline 75w90 full synthetic gear lube. it was a dollar more per quart then the Amsoil, but they had 2 quarts of amsoil left, and i need 3 . ill put it in later and tell everyone how it turns out.

[dmitri]

today when i was changing my oil i thought id change the tranny fluid too. I couldnt find the plugs though. can someone tell me/show me with a picture where they are? someone else said on the side of the radiator but i looked and didnt see anything. What size would the plug be etc. Thanks.

[joatmon]

can't make sense of the drawings in the service manual without going out and looking at the car, but it's dark, raining and a 5 speed.The drain and filler plugs are on the transmission itself. The drain plug will be at about the lowest point on the transmission, the filler plug will be roughly about approximately? 1/3 of the way up on the front (radiator) side of the transmission.Supposed to add fluid to bring the leve up to 0 to 5mm from the bottom of the filler plug hole. Drain the old, put the drain plug back in, then add the new. I used to just squirt it in until it started running back out.Just to add to the ambiguity, the service manual says to fill it with "Type gear oil GL-4 or GL-5 75W90 or the equivalent"

[dmitri]

yea i did that...i figured it out, its jsut theres alot of holes there and its not clear which is for what.So much easier working on small block chevies...

[joatmon]

I changed the oil in my 5-speed this past weekend, it was pretty easy to do. I just passed 60K miles, and the maintenance interval said to check the level, not much more trouble to just change it.On the 5 speed, there are two bolts, a filler and a drain plug. The drain plug is at the lowest point of the tranny, and faces the front driver's wheel. The filler plug is about a third of the way up on the front of the tranny. Both are bigger than any onther bolt on the tranny, took a 15/16th's socket. (Probably actually a metric size, but the biggest metric I had wasn't big enough, and 15/16ths fit pretty well) The plugs also had a rasied lip around the bolt head, and a small bump in the center of the bolt head top.I used Mobil1 synthetic, which seemed to be about all the nearby auto parts stores had that wasn't some no-name buck a quart stuff. Took two quarts. The mobil1 synthetic was 75W-90 GL5. It had a really strong sulfur odor Has anybody ese used that mobil1 synthetic gear oil, and is it supposed to stink?Anyway, I'd like to think that it made a big improvement in something, but I honestly don't think I can tell the difference. The old oil was a lot browner than the stuff that I put in, and very small amount of iron dust came out in the old oil. Having missed a shift here and there, I thought there would be more than there was, so I guess I'm not as hard on the gears as I thought I was

[felixthecat]

I took my car to be serviced and the lube guy said the tranny fluid looked worn for 24,000 miles so I took it in to the dealer to have the tranny checked out and he said Pontiac uses 100,000 mile tranny oil in the Vibe's. I'm not convinced. So let me know what oil you try and how it does so I can change mine.

[21Rouge]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »For what it's worth, my 2003 Vibe Owner's Manual says in the Recommended Fluids section on page 7-44:quote:Manual Transaxle: GM Goodwrench Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid (GM Part No. U.S. 12346190, in Canada 10953477 - 1 quart) or SAE 75W-90 GL-5 gear oil.Maybe that 12346190 is already in there from the factory and if it's the best stuff in the world, then I won't bother changing it. It would be nice to know what's in there on a new Vibe, but if it was the 12346190, that wouldn't explain the improvements you felt when you had 12346190 put back in.The 2005 manual says the same. Any definitive info regarding the factory MT fluid?

[cybotron]

Well it already was not in mine.... I'm sure glad I spent the extra bucks....

[21Rouge]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »For what it's worth, my 2003 Vibe Owner's Manual says in the Recommended Fluids section on page 7-44:Manual Transaxle: GM Goodwrench Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid (GM Part No. U.S. 12346190, in Canada 10953477 - 1 quart) or SAE 75W-90 GL-5 gear oil.I recently returned from a Pontiac dealer. I took a quick look at the litre bottle of synthetic (our Vibes take 1.9 litres/2 qrts). Nowhere on the lable did it say GL-5 but I did see GL-4 ??

[21Rouge]

Quote, originally posted by cybotron »Well it already was not in mine.... I'm sure glad I spent the extra bucks.... Today I replaced the OEM MT fluid with the very expensive GM synthetic (part no 12346190). Although there is only 5000 km on the vehicle I feel better knowing that any contaminants, break-in debris, and 'stuff' which would be in the factory fluid up till now, is gone. As well I am expecting easier shifting when cold weather comes to town.

[Psychobroker]

12346190 *is* the OEM MT fluid...how much per quart?

[21Rouge]

Quote, originally posted by Psychobroker »12346190 *is* the OEM MT fluidHow can you tell that it is the OEM? I find it a bit hard to believe that NUMMI puts in a very expensive synthetic for such a car. And as I recall a synthetic isnt mentioned in the Matrix manual for its MT fluid.

[goodvibe]

Quote, originally posted by Psychobroker »12346190 *is* the OEM MT fluid...how much per quart? It's certainly the OEM replacement fluid but it shifts much better than what what the Vibe comess with. What's in there from the factory is a 75w90 and common to both matrix and Vibe. The GM fluid is a 75w 85 GL4 and on hand at GM. Works great, but if you beat on it, you may want something that offers a bit more protection like a 75w90 GL4 or dual rated GL4/5 if you can find one that shifts well.

[Vibey]

A quick question. Do you flush the tranny when you change the tranny fluid?TIA

[21Rouge]

Quote, originally posted by Vibey »A quick question. Do you flush the tranny when you change the tranny fluid?TIANo flush. Just drain it when the engine is warm and allow the drain to occur for as long as you can...to get as much as possible out. The drain 'plug' isnt magnetic and the fill and drain plug are identical.

[21Rouge]

Quote, originally posted by goodvibe » It's certainly the OEM replacement fluid but it shifts much better than what what the Vibe comess with. That's what I meant in my earlier post. The GM synthetic is listed in the manual (a rebadged Castrol Syntorq) but it most certainly is not the factory MT fluid...much too expensive as the factory fluid.Quote, originally posted by goodvibe » The GM fluid is a 75w 85 GL4 and on hand at GM. I just cant believe it is so pricey ($28 cdn a qrt). I looked at several other synthetic fluids and no other came close to the cost of the readily available GM fluid.Quote, originally posted by goodvibe » Works great, but if you beat on it, you may want something that offers a bit more protection like a 75w90 GL4 or dual rated GL4/5 if you can find one that shifts well. I changed out the factory fluid after only 5000 km to get rid of any contaminants from break in and from the factory. I put in this 'good stuff' in part to help maintain the health of the MT and to aid with cold weather shifting. Considering the quality of this fluid (as indicated by the cost ) when would you change it again?