Engine seized at 117,000 miles, what now?

[RIPvibe]

Hey all,

First timer here. I bought a used 2005 Vibe back in 2010 with approximately 55,000 miles on it (car now has 117K on it). I drove it pretty much uneventfully since then (I did have a radiator go bad in 2011 which was replaced under an extended warranty). Oil has been changed regularly around 4,000 miles. Oil was changed not even a week ago with approximately 400-500 miles driven since then. This morning I was driving up the interstate to the mountains to go skiing. I lost throttle power suddenly and without warning while traveling in the left lane at approximately 65 mph. I began to hear a knocking sound (I almost thought it was the jake brake or engine retarder on the semi next to me, until I realized we were still traveling up hill). My check engine light flashed on and off 3 or 4 times. I signaled and made my way over to the right shoulder over the next several hundred yards. I turned my car off and waited for the tow. While waiting, I checked all my fluids. Engine temp had never strayed from the middle of the dial the whole event. Clean oil was on the dip stick to the full mark, but when I pulled the dip stick out, smoke came out of the hole. Shop diagnosis is a seized engine with a 6500 estimate for a used engine replacement and 8500 for a new engine. Needless to say I am a teeny bit frustrated by this.
So I have 2 questions:
1) I am not very mechanically inclined or savvy when it comes to cars. My first thought would have been that all the oil somehow drained from the system, but obviously that wasn't the case. So what could cause the engine to seize in this instance? A problem with oil delivery to the engine itself?
2) I wrote an email to Pontiac describing my situation, not really expecting any response. To my shock, I received a call a couple hours later from them asking me for more information. They said they would like me to bring the car to a certified GM dealer for diagnosis and then they would "review" my case. They could not tell me if there was actually any chance of any compensation, but made it sound like perhaps there could be. I am well out of warranty and no longer have extended coverage. Has anyone here ever heard of a case similar to mine in which Pontiac actually provided assistance with the repairs? I just don't want to delve any more deeply into this financial pit than is necessary.

Thanks everyone for reading. I am just trying to get a better understanding of why this happened, as well as figure out if there is a better option than putting the deceased Vibe up on Craigslist for salvage.

Josh

[SeattleJeremy]

First off sorry to hear your engine failed.
Second do you have an AWD? The reason I ask is because the AWD block is different, and harder to get.

If you decide to have the engine replaced, you should shop around first. The money it will cost to tow to another facility might be well spent if the overall bill is lower. Some places have their own tow trucks and will do that for free.

Low mileage (under 50k mile) 1ZZ's can be had on http://www.car-part.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for around $2000.
Did they quote you a time (hours) it would take to replace the engine?

[RIPvibe]

Hey Jeremy,
Thanks for the reply. Yeah it's AWD. And I don't see an hours estimate on the quote, just $3500 for labor. The engine costs are 4900 for a remanufactured and 2640 for a used.
Thanks for your advice.
Josh

[Nasmfell]

At that cost you could get a newer Vibe 2008 and later. Something to consider.

[Chiadog]

In Wisconsin the whole job (used engine) should cost less than $3500.00 if you check with Junk yards that replace engines!
My last used engine job on a 2002 Impala cost $1800.00 total, 4 years ago. The car is still running fine.
Parts finder: http://www.partshotlines.com/component/phl/search/

[RIPvibe]

Still trying to wrap my head around why this would have happened. After doing some internet browsing today I am wondering if possible timing chain failure at highway speed caused the engine to seize. Is this a possibility? I would find that frustrating as my understanding is that the timing chain theoretically needs no servicing or replacement.
Yeah, I'm definitely not even considering repairing it at this point. Just hoping that maybe someone in my area has the aptitude and motivation to give me something for my Vibe and throw a new engine in it.

[binder]

You say you turned the engine off after pulling over to the side of the road. Was the engine actually still running? If so, then you dont have a "seized engine".

[Salsa Guy]

This sounds way to familiar. We bought our 05 AWD Matrix in the January of 08 with 27K miles. In Feb we took it on a trip to go snow skiing from Tulsa. We got about 10 miles outside Denver and our engine blew, as in, oil and coolant blowing out the back end, covering our friend's windshield that was following us. It's was almost the same thing as yours, lost power, CEL, then about 1 miles later dead. Anyway Toyota covered it under warranty but the dealership was a PITA. They also gave us $500 to cover rental car and flight from Tulsa to Denver to pick it up after it was repaired. It took them 2 months mostly to get the block.

They replaced the short block, re-worked the heads and basically rebuilt the motor.

Options: Blocks/Engines for these cars are hard to find. Not Impossible but hard. But a used one should go not for more than $2.5K, labor should be less than $1.5K.
GM/Toyota Won't do Sh*t on a 9 y/o car with 120K miles. They want your money to tell you it will cost $8K to fix it.

Questions: Have you been to the mountains before in this car? (I have not before it blew)
Did you do any thing special before heading to the mountains i.e. gas, injector cleaner....? (I filled up with a high Octane Gas)
As it sits would you sell it? (Where is it located) I have a 3gte swap in mind

[RIPvibe]

Well following the initial loss of power, the throttle became less and less responsive as I struggled to merge over 3 lanes to the shoulder. The RPM's dropped and I think the engine more or less shut itself off just as I limped onto the shoulder and killed the ignition. About 2 minutes after I attempted to start the car, it actually cranked and made a couple knocking sounds, but did not start (I don't think, was hard to hear with semi's buzzing by at 70). I turned the ignition off, and about 10-15 minutes later tried once more, that time it only made a couple electronic clicks accompanied by dash lights flickering on. Hard to remember exactly how everything went down, but I think that is pretty close.

Thanks again for everyone's 2 cents.

[jake75]

I have a 2009 Vibe 1.8L AT and I am not that much in love with it to spend even $6,000 on a rebuilt engine install let alone $8,000. Unfortunately catastrophic automobile engine failure is a bell curve and you seem to have been caught on the early to mid end of that curve.

[triz]

Sounds more like rod knock to me then seized. Possible spun bearing. Oil starvation will kill these engines instantly. The minute that light goes off its pretty much dead. Usually its lack of oil that will kill it and hopefully whoever did your oil change put the right amount. Oil pump failure is my guess if the latter had adequate oil in it.

Is this a 1zz. Auto or manual?

You can find a 1zz used for around 1000k sometimes less if your lucky. Short blocks are around 1800 if its just bottom end damage. Generally though your better off getting a used one.

[Caretaker]

Josh, just a thought to put in your back pocket: should repair of your Vibe become too costly and you need a replacement vehicle, consider getting a Honda Fit; similar in form and functionality but different in that it is truly one of the bullet proof cars out there for sale. I have the first generation Fit (GD) and have noticed that prices have been falling over the past few months, with people putting their Fits up for sale way too early in the vehicle's lifespan. Mileage is not a factor with the Fit's engine, and the car simply stands up to the test of time. With the third generation set to come out later this year there are plenty of used ones out on the market. I bought mine sight unseen over the phone from a guy 3 hours away all because I know the cars are as close to indestructible as they come. I know a catastrophic failure of a family vehicle can really rattle one's confidence, so I thought I'd share my experience on a car that can restore that confidence. Sorry for your troubles.

[Salsa Guy]

I believe it's an AWD so it's a special block that goes in it. You would think if the Oil Pump failed there would have been at least the oil pressure light come on and a CEL.

[Raven]

AWD or not, there are hundreds of used engines available for these cars. Between Matrix and Vibe there are plenty of low cost/low mileage examples out there. Labor should be not bad either, easily doable in a day.

[binder]

Josh, just a thought to put in your back pocket: should repair of your Vibe become too costly and you need a replacement vehicle, consider getting a Honda Fit; similar in form and functionality but different in that it is truly one of the bullet proof cars out there for sale. I have the first generation Fit (GD) and have noticed that prices have been falling over the past few months, with people putting their Fits up for sale way too early in the vehicle's lifespan. Mileage is not a factor with the Fit's engine, and the car simply stands up to the test of time. With the third generation set to come out later this year there are plenty of used ones out on the market. I bought mine sight unseen over the phone from a guy 3 hours away all because I know the cars are as close to indestructible as they come. I know a catastrophic failure of a family vehicle can really rattle one's confidence, so I thought I'd share my experience on a car that can restore that confidence. Sorry for your troubles.

I think the Honda Fit is a much smaller car? The Vibe/ Matrix can handle more stuff and has a much higher towing capacity as far as I know? As for reliability, sounds like an issue with whatever was done to the AWD version, maybe was engineered poorly? But the Corolla 1.8l engine has been around for years and is one of the most reliable, simple to repair engines out there. It is the biggest selling car in the world, you ask any mechanic and they will tell you it is "bullet proof" as well.

[Salsa Guy]

AWD or not, there are hundreds of used engines available for these cars. Between Matrix and Vibe there are plenty of low cost/low mileage examples out there. Labor should be not bad either, easily doable in a day.

Yes there are several AWD engines out there. They range from $1.2K to $1.8 and Labor at the high end would be $1.2K.

[Nasmfell]

Josh, just a thought to put in your back pocket: should repair of your Vibe become too costly and you need a replacement vehicle, consider getting a Honda Fit; similar in form and functionality but different in that it is truly one of the bullet proof cars out there for sale. I have the first generation Fit (GD) and have noticed that prices have been falling over the past few months, with people putting their Fits up for sale way too early in the vehicle's lifespan. Mileage is not a factor with the Fit's engine, and the car simply stands up to the test of time. With the third generation set to come out later this year there are plenty of used ones out on the market. I bought mine sight unseen over the phone from a guy 3 hours away all because I know the cars are as close to indestructible as they come. I know a catastrophic failure of a family vehicle can really rattle one's confidence, so I thought I'd share my experience on a car that can restore that confidence. Sorry for your troubles.

Fit is not a bad choice, but as binder mentioned the 1.8 is a pretty good engine. I don't think it is too far removed from another really good engine, the 1NZ-FE, the 1.5 installed in the Echo, XA an Xb (There is an echo with over 400K on the clock. there may be a Youtube Video). It was a freak incident the engine failed the way it did.

[Caretaker]

Thanks, but after owning three "corollas" (two of which were Vibes), I would hardly characterize my cars as bullet proof. Also, an engine, while important, is only one component of a car. The corolla engine is certainly worldly and stands the test of time. However, they are oil burners and are poorly mated to the Toyota four speed automatic. There are many other parts which are inferior on the Vibe (steering column/rack), radio, suspension, electrical..... none of these are awful, just not bullet proof. True Delta's website also illustrates this. Troll the Vibe and Fit boards and you'll read for yourself which has more "stories" and complaints. I have for years, and would take the Fit/Jazz's reliability over the Vibe's any day.

[Nasmfell]

Thanks, but after owning three "corollas" (two of which were Vibes), I would hardly characterize my cars as bullet proof. Also, an engine, while important, is only one component of a car. The corolla engine is certainly worldly and stands the test of time. However, they are oil burners and are poorly mated to the Toyota four speed automatic. There are many other parts which are inferior on the Vibe (steering column/rack), radio, suspension, electrical..... none of these are awful, just not bullet proof. True Delta's website also illustrates this. Troll the Vibe and Fit boards and you'll read for yourself which has more "stories" and complaints. I have for years, and would take the Fit/Jazz's reliability over the Vibe's any day.

I see. In your opinion the Vibe may not be a good buy?

[lannvouivre]

Sounds more like rod knock to me then seized. Possible spun bearing.

I agree with triz in that it doesn't sound seized. I'm just a learning shophand, but what we did to test for a seized engine was to put a breaker bar on the crank pulley and try to rotate the engine. If it wouldn't budge, then my boss'd say it's seized. I don't know what a rod knock or spun bearing would be like in detail as I have only actually heard maybe the knock in person.

I also agree the cost to replace it sounds steep to me, even if the block is a rare one.

As for talking to Pontiac, I don't know if they'd compensate, but am surprised they're interested in seeing it. Make sure you shop around before you get it fixed.

Sorry to hear about your car suddenly giving up on you. Accidents like that take a long time to get over. Glad everyone is physically ok.

[jake75]

Thanks, but after owning three "corollas" (two of which were Vibes), I would hardly characterize my cars as bullet proof. Also, an engine, while important, is only one component of a car. The corolla engine is certainly worldly and stands the test of time. However, they are oil burners and are poorly mated to the Toyota four speed automatic. There are many other parts which are inferior on the Vibe (steering column/rack), radio, suspension, electrical..... none of these are awful, just not bullet proof. True Delta's website also illustrates this. Troll the Vibe and Fit boards and you'll read for yourself which has more "stories" and complaints. I have for years, and would take the Fit/Jazz's reliability over the Vibe's any day.

I see. In your opinion the Vibe may not be a good buy?

I wouldn't say a used Vibe is not a good buy - it all depends. Certainly it is not the "Holy Grail" some here think. You could do worse. I have not had the best of experience in buying used cars in my now 71 years on this earth. Especially in current times I think the advantages of buying new are persuasive. Most used =cars also lose a lot the moment your drive them the off the lot. A dealer will make maybe $500 on a new car - but probably $2,000 or more on a late model used one.

[tpollauf]

Sorry to hear about this unexpected engine issue. I'd definitely be a little suspicious as to the recent oil change and if something was "forgotten" or "left out". In any case I'd be real curious as to the internal damage done to the engine. You won't know this unless you tear it apart and inspect it. Assuming you find a good used engine out there and go that route, you'll probably just scrap your current engine. Having rebuilt a handful on engines in my younger years I'm always interested in the failures which take an engine to it's grave prematurely. Definitely keep all of us posted as to your plans & progress!

[msu90]

Sorry to hear about your engine. Mine went at about 79,000 in my 2003 base Vibe. I ended up getting a used Corolla engine. It's been great and I'm at 195,000. The cost was about $3500 and that was about 6 years ago.

As far as my old engine goes, there was hardly any oil in it for some reason and the oil light didn't come on until right before it seized. About 2 months after I got the replacement engine, I found out I was leaking coolant. I'm not sure if the coolant was going into where the oil was.

Keep us up to date on how it goes. Good luck!

[Nasmfell]

Thanks, but after owning three "corollas" (two of which were Vibes), I would hardly characterize my cars as bullet proof. Also, an engine, while important, is only one component of a car. The corolla engine is certainly worldly and stands the test of time. However, they are oil burners and are poorly mated to the Toyota four speed automatic. There are many other parts which are inferior on the Vibe (steering column/rack), radio, suspension, electrical..... none of these are awful, just not bullet proof. True Delta's website also illustrates this. Troll the Vibe and Fit boards and you'll read for yourself which has more "stories" and complaints. I have for years, and would take the Fit/Jazz's reliability over the Vibe's any day.

I see. In your opinion the Vibe may not be a good buy?

I wouldn't say a used Vibe is not a good buy - it all depends. Certainly it is not the "Holy Grail" some here think. You could do worse. I have not had the best of experience in buying used cars in my now 71 years on this earth. Especially in current times I think the advantages of buying new are persuasive. Most used =cars also lose a lot the moment your drive them the off the lot. A dealer will make maybe $500 on a new car - but probably $2,000 or more on a late model used one.

That's understandable. Any used car can be a gamble, no matter the manufacturer.

[Salsa Guy]

Thanks, but after owning three "corollas" (two of which were Vibes), I would hardly characterize my cars as bullet proof. Also, an engine, while important, is only one component of a car. The corolla engine is certainly worldly and stands the test of time. However, they are oil burners and are poorly mated to the Toyota four speed automatic. There are many other parts which are inferior on the Vibe (steering column/rack), radio, suspension, electrical..... none of these are awful, just not bullet proof. True Delta's website also illustrates this. Troll the Vibe and Fit boards and you'll read for yourself which has more "stories" and complaints. I have for years, and would take the Fit/Jazz's reliability over the Vibe's any day.

I see. In your opinion the Vibe may not be a good buy?

I wouldn't say a used Vibe is not a good buy - it all depends. Certainly it is not the "Holy Grail" some here think. You could do worse. I have not had the best of experience in buying used cars in my now 71 years on this earth. Especially in current times I think the advantages of buying new are persuasive. Most used =cars also lose a lot the moment your drive them the off the lot. A dealer will make maybe $500 on a new car - but probably $2,000 or more on a late model used one.

I disagree. You buy any New car and as soon as you drive it off the lot kiss at least 10% of it's valve goodbye. Buy a used car at a good price and it's still worth the same a few weeks later. Vibe because it has a GM badge is essentially a Toyota Matrix. It takes a bigger depreciation than the Matrix but the quality is the same.

I'll never buy a new car because they are a waste of money. Sure I could afford a nice new car but why? I let some else lose 25-40% on a 2-3 year old car. Cars are NOT an investment, they are an EXPENSE. A good used Vibe is an excellent buy.

[jake75]

I agree that the key is "buy a used car at a good price." Easier said than done. I am particularly amazed at the CarMax "no haggle" prices. I am an attorney and last year had an estate with a 2002 Buick Century Limited with about 22,000 miles. I told the executor/heir to take it to CarMax for a free "appraisal" that we could use for Probate. They offered $4,500. The executor/heir lived 2,500 miles away and had no need for a car. She was ready to hand it to CarMax or sell it to me for that $4,500. As attorney for the estate I could not buy it - conflict of interest according to court rules. She was in a hurry to get back home and didn't even want to take the time to drive it back to CarMax. I told her CarMax was stealing it from her and I would sell it for the estate. I got $7,500 within a week just putting a sign on the window. CarMax would have detailed it and put it on their lot for over $10,000. The heir added the $3,000 to my legal bill. Sometimes there is an exception to the saying that a good deed never goes unpunished. Of course I had to pay income tax on that $3,000.

[jake75]

Two more CarMax stories. In 2007 I had a 2004 T&C with 33,000 miles. Dealer offered me $7,000 in trade. I took it to CarMax, they offered $8,000. I sold it without much trouble for $11,500 after showing potential buyers that CarMax was asking $13,000-$14,000 for similar minivans on their lot. In another estate the heir had a full size Buick with a few issues - annoying stuff like power window not working etc. - nothing major. She was getting the decedent's 2007 Toyota Camry. She sold her Buick to CarMax for $4,000 and was very happy with that price. I later saw it on their lot priced at $9,995.

[Salsa Guy]

I don't normally buy used cars from dealers either.

[lannvouivre]

I don't normally buy used cars from dealers either.

Mine was from a Mitsubishi dealership. I think my parents only saved $2000 (vs new). They paid $14,400 or so on 4 Oct. of 2007; the car was manufactured at 12:01 am of 22 Feb 2006, loaded with everything except sound and alarm. The car hadn't even been detailed.

[Salsa Guy]

It's interest according to CR, the 04-10 Vibe is a good used car buy. However the Matrix 09 is left out. Strange.

[jake75]

It's interest according to CR, the 04-10 Vibe is a good used car buy. However the Matrix 09 is left out. Strange.

Perhaps the Matrix pricing makes it not a good buy.

[tpollauf]

It's interest according to CR, the 04-10 Vibe is a good used car buy. However the Matrix 09 is left out. Strange.

Actually, the 2009 Matrix was scored as "neutral" for that year. Neither good or bad. Definitely a typo error

[Salsa Guy]

That was the start for gen2. Really 03-04 was gen1 (DBC), 05-08 was gen1.5 (DBW), 09+ total remake