Replacing T-IV with Toyota WS compatible synthetic

[jmkirsch]

I decided to do some PM on my 2005 Vibe with about 92,000 miles. The car has been pretty much flawless, and I appreciate everyone's posts here for helping me maintain it! My favorite repair was the the max A/C servo by flipping the gear I've had a bad run with mechanics and have done all of the work myself. I wanted to get the coolant flushed, transmission fluid changed, serpentine belt replaced and idler/tension pulley replaced, so I decided to go with a highly recommended local shop.

They did a good job though I asked them to ensure they got the parts 2 weeks before my appointment and they failed to get the idler pulley I kind of figured that was going to happen. After reading several posts about just doing a drain/fill on the transmission, I specifically asked them to do just that, and to use T-IV fluid. When I picked it up I asked them if they used T-IV fluid and they said they used "synthetic ATF." They showed me the bottle and I forget the brand. All I remember is it said it was a multi-vehicle synthetic compatible with several Japanese standards including Toyota WS, Dexron ATF and bunch more. I specifically looked for T-IV on the bottle and it was NOT listed. I think it may have also said it was for import vehicles.

After some more research I came across this TSB which clearly states that Toyota WS is NOT compatible with T-IV: http://www.toyotapart.com/WORLD_STANDAR ... 010-07.pdf

I plan on calling the shop in the morning and demanding they replace the fluid with T-IV like I asked. Does anyone have any experience with "synthetic ATF" vs. T-IV? I don't want to chance anything with the transmission which is why I explicitly asked then to use T-IV like the manual and dipstick show. Had I known they would do this, I would've done it myself.

[CharlesinGA]

I have always said, "if you want it done right, do it yourself".

If you finally determine that the fluid is not T-IV compatible, then, Yes, the shop should replace the fluid. Problem is, its 3 qts (thats all you get out when you drain it) and it holds 8 or 9 qts total.) You really need to dump the fluid, run it a day or so, dump it again, run it another day, dump it again, at least three or four times to get all of the fluid out of it. I did this to my '04 base model FWD when I bought it last September. It had 50K mi on it and from everything I have been able to read, Toyota automatics like fresh fluid and will last forever if you keep fresh fluid in them. I did three dump and refills, it takes 3 qts almost exactly to refill it. When I hit 60K and I changed the oil again (10,000 mi intervals) I did the trans fluid also. I intend to do it every 10K miles from now on, in conjunction with the oil change. I change the filter at 5K and again at the oil change.

I use Amsoil 5w-30 fully synthetic motor oil and Amsoil Multi-vehicle ATF (fully synthetic) that specifically says it is T-IV compatible.

Amsoil also makes a "fuel efficient ATF" that is Toyota WS compatible. It is a LIGHTER VISCOSITY than the T-IV fluid and the fuel efficient ATF is also compatible with Dextron VI/Mercon LV, which is the GM and Ford fuel efficient AFT fluid.

The Amsoil Multi-vehicle ATF is T-III/ T-IV and Dextron III/Mercon V (along with lots of other manufacturers specs) compatible.

I think the fluid is actually mixable, but the viscosity is wrong. In any case, the shop owes you a trans flush or repeated fluid changes to get it out. If they won't do that, its easy to change the fluid yourself using a shallow drain pan. Get an extra drain plug seal from GM or Toyota in case your old one is too bad to reuse. Be careful tightening the plug, the book torque specs is only 13 lb/ft, about half of the oil drain plug torque.

Charles

[jmkirsch]

Thanks. I found out that the mechanic is on vacation so I won't find anything out for a week or so. I bought enough Castrol Import Multi-vehicle, which lists T-IV, to do 2 more changes while they are gone. I'll find out when they return what they used and deal with it then. If it was import multi-vehicle fluid, it seems like it has to be compatible, though it bugs me that it didn't specifically say T-IV on the bottle. Though, they can say anything they want at this point, so maybe I'll just do 3 changes with Castrol and let it go. It just stinks that I can't find a trustworthy mechanic who does what tell them to do.

[Caretaker]

2009 Vibe 1.8 liter engine: why does the dipstick have WS on it and a sticker stating that the fluid never needs to be changed under normal operating conditions unless it is WS fluid? The owner's manual says T-IV fluid. Toyota technicians guarantee me that there is WS fluid in the 2009 Vibe given that all Toyota vehicles went to WS fluid in 2008 and that the plug underneath is clearly for WS fluid transmissions. Moreover, I just called a GM dealership, and they had me read them my VIN which tells them on their computer that I have WS in my tranny. Can anyone clarify, and let me know whether Toyota WS fluid will harm my transmission? I'm suprised that the owner's manual would be wrong. While I had the parts guy on the phone from GM, I had him read off what the computer said (regarding my VIN) on the radiator fluid. He said it stated DEXCOOL. I thought our cars had Toyota pink in them? I'm sooooooooooo confused.

[CharlesinGA]

The real difference between T-IV and WS, from what I can glean from a few websites, including Amsoil, is that the WS is a lighter (thinner, or more watery) viscosity, to improve fuel economy. I doubt using one or the other will make any significant difference, but you want the right one. I bet the owners manual is wrong, and I bet the dipstick is right. Toyota (NUMMI) made the dipstick and they assembled the car, Pontiac just created the manual, probably someone in a cubicle who never even saw a Vibe.

Whatever you do, NEVER use Dexcool. Personally, I would not want it in ANY cooling system in any vehicle. Bad stuff. If you look, you will see pink antifreeze in your cooling system.

Charles

[Caretaker]

Charles, you are correct about the radiator overflow fluid being pink. That is why I thought it was Toyota Pink, not Dexcool. However, the research on my VIN says Dexcool. Also, my primary mechanic, who is outstanding, told me that everybody is giong to the Dexcool 50/50 mixture. While there have been numerous issues with Dexcool causing head gasket problems and cracked blocks, I have to assume that the VIN research is correct and that I have Dexcool fluid in my radiator.
Anyway, I choose to replace the fluids at least once. In regards to my tranny, I don't mind paying the $199 for the flush today knowing that I got WS fluid (which is much more expensive than T-IV) and that it was confirmed by GM as WS via my VIN. The Toyota Service Manager told me today that since 2008, many if not all Toyotas have gone to the sealed transmission with WS fluid (no dipstick). Despite Toyota stating that the tranny fluid does not need to be replaced under normal driving (as it states on my 2009 Vibe dipstick), the Manager said that he has seen a LOT of Toyota problems as a result of customers not changing out the WS fluid at about the 75,000 mile mark. He also said that once they flushed out and replaced the fluid, many of the tranny issues people came in with disappeared.
While I was hesitant to let Toyota put WS in my tranny today, it would seem that it was the right thing to do. My car ran VERY well tonight and shifted superbly. I was just curious as to why so many people on this board recommend the T-IV when it would seem WS is the proper fluid for the second gen Vibe? Since I did not know that the VIN had such detailed information associated with it, I thought I'd post my experience today and see what others thought knowing that if I did happen to make a mistake with the WS, I would not ruin my transmission after only a day or two.

[10vibe]

oil viscosity, transmission fluid, per different owners manuals revisions. Look for my post
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antifreeze/coolant research
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=36762" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Caretaker]

Thanks 10Vibe. It has been a while since I had read that post. I see that you have "wrong" in the category of 2009 vibe for the manual which states T-IV for the tranny fluid, so more good news for me that I used the WS fluid yesterday. However, you also have "wrong" for Dexcool for the 2009 despite me being told by GM that it states Dexcool for my VIN number. I see that you posted 50/50 mix as being acceptable, but in my mind, that is a Dexcool mix or is it just a diluted HOAT? I see from your extensive radiator fluid post (fascinating) that my car has: The 2009-2010 Vibe's comes from Nummi with Toyota Super Long Life 50/50 prediluted pink coolant. If Toyota long life is silicate free, I still wonder why my VIN is showing Dexcool as my fluid?

[10vibe]

Thanks 10Vibe. It has been a while since I had read that post. I see that you have "wrong" in the category of 2009 vibe for the manual which states T-IV for the tranny fluid, so more good news for me that I used the WS fluid yesterday. However, you also have "wrong" for Dexcool for the 2009 despite me being told by GM that it states Dexcool for my VIN number. I see that you posted 50/50 mix as being acceptable, but in my mind, that is a Dexcool mix or is it just a diluted HOAT? I see from your extensive radiator fluid post (fascinating) that my car has: The 2009-2010 Vibe's comes from Nummi with Toyota Super Long Life 50/50 prediluted pink coolant. If Toyota long life is silicate free, I still wonder why my VIN is showing Dexcool as my fluid?

Dexcool is an OAT and is silicate free. Toyota Super Long Life is a P-HOAT (POAT), silicate free, but with the addition of Phosphate. It also uses different OAT chemistry. Toyota Super Long Life only comes in the 50/50 premix, already diluted with de-mineralized or distilled water, to the best of my knowledge. I think in Canada it may be offered in a 60/40 version.

From what others posted, including I think a post from a former NUMMI worker, the fact that Toyota Corolla's came down the same line mixed in with the Vibe's, that they also produced Tacoma's there, the coolant is pink, and my dealership thought that it came from the factory with the Toyota Pink Super Long Life Coolant, I am surmising that this is what is in it.

Will Dexcool cause problems down the line if used to top off or change out? I do not know. What I fear is that Toyota's gaskets and other components have not been designed or tested with Dexcool in mind for long term use. I just do not know if it is worth the risk if planning to keep the car for a very long time. I feel it MIGHT be safer to try to keep the chemistry a P-HOAT (POAT). Zerex Asian formula and some other POATS might be a safer alternative.

Why the VIN says DEXCOOL is probably more about what they knew a GM or Pontiac dealership would have in stock, they make money on it, and figure it will not harm anything,...at least during the warranty period.
Hope this helps.

[leemur]

Well, for better or for worse, my 04 Vibe has had the old ethyl glycol green put in it for the last two coolant flushes.
It has also had three or four tranny drain and fills done with walmart Super Tech VI (6) tranny fluid.

Super Tech VI says it is compatable with T- IV and WS. Confusing considering you guys are saying they are not compatable.
There was another Super Tech tranny fluid...I think V (5) that was compatable with T-IV but did not list WS.

I've had no trouble at all with tranny. It seems very healthy and the fluid stays redish, unlike that darn Toyota T-IV that goes brown vey fast. The first change was a flush done with Toyota T-IV at 65,000 miles. It,( the flushed and new T-IV), went brown pretty fast. The car has just over 150,000 and I drain and fill twice a year now.

The 09 2.4 has 72,000 and I'll drain and fill it in the spring most likely.