Speaker Questions

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:29 am

FYI - This is regarding the '05-'08 Vibes with the M&T Subwoofer.1) For the front and rear doors can I go with the Polk Audio db651 or do I have to get the db651s?2) What is the speaker size on the M&T Subwoofer in the cargo area?Thanks!

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:28 am

I would say either would work Brian; the depth for the 651 is only 2 5/16". The factory sub is 6.5"

cptnsolo77 · Post by **cptnsolo77** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:57 am

The DB651 is a direct fit for the rear speakers. The fronts require a shallow mount speaker (db651-S) , but I have seen a couple of posts where a few members installed the DB651 in the front with slight modification. I decided to install the DB651-S in the front because I just wanted a simple swap. They are basically the same speaker:DB65160 RMS180W PeakDB651-S55 RMS165W PeakI beleive the DB651 has a slightly better frequency response but its probably so small a difference you couldnt hear it anyhow.They also both have a high sensitivity rating.With my factory M&T amp setup its very impressive & I still have the factory rear speakers.I lost a bit of bass with the Polks BUT I gained depth & clarity.I made it up a bit by fading it a bit towards the rear speakers.When I pay off the next credit card bill im going to treat myself to some Polk components for the rear.You wont be disappointed with the Polks....whichever model you choose.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:15 pm

Quote, originally posted by audiovibe »I would say either would work Brian; the depth for the 651 is only 2 5/16". The factory sub is 6.5"Thanks, Aron. I bought another stock Vibe sub unit that I'm gonna play around with to see if I can upgrade to a better sub in the same housing. I'll be right back after I take a pic...... It seems to measure only 6" though & LKQ calls it out as a 6" sub as well. It is really a 6" or a 6.5"? See pic:Quote, originally posted by cptnsolo77 »The DB651 is a direct fit for the rear speakers. The fronts require a shallow mount speaker (db651-S) , but I have seen a couple of posts where a few members installed the DB651 in the front with slight modification. I decided to install the DB651-S in the front because I just wanted a simple swap. They are basically the same speaker:DB65160 RMS180W PeakDB651-S55 RMS165W PeakI beleive the DB651 has a slightly better frequency response but its probably so small a difference you couldnt hear it anyhow.They also both have a high sensitivity rating.With my factory M&T amp setup its very impressive & I still have the factory rear speakers.I lost a bit of bass with the Polks BUT I gained depth & clarity.I made it up a bit by fading it a bit towards the rear speakers.When I pay off the next credit card bill im going to treat myself to some Polk components for the rear.You wont be disappointed with the Polks....whichever model you choose.Thanks, Hector. I remember seeing something about the shallow mounts so I might do exactly what you have listed.-db651s for the fronts-db651 for the rears-Then a new 6" or 6.5" sub for the rearAlso, the stock sub says: 2+2 Ohms, 50+50 Watts. Does that mean it is 4 Ohms and 100 watts total? Sorry, I don't know audio terms or lingo very well. Based on this info does anyone have recommendations for a 6" or 6.5" sub?

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audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:53 pm

I never figured it out but the speaker size is measured by the largest outside diameter in most cases not just where the surround on the speaker stops.How deep is is the factory speaker Brian?This may be a good candidatehttp://www.edesignaudio.com/pr...id=33You could probably get an 8" in with little to no work by making a ring to use as an adapter.Just out of curiosity what color are the wires connecting to the factory sub? My gut is telling me that there are two independent channels driving the sub. I'm not to sure how much difference you will notice from swapping the factory sub. you might get it to play a little lower, but depending on the sensitivity of the factory driver you won't get much more volume. The 50x50 will be a max recommendation from the speaker manufacture in reality you will probably get 15x15 at mostJust a thought here:When you sound deadened your Vibe did you do the doors as well? If you are looking for a lil more low end kick that could be another option. Deadening and sealing up the doors will essentially make the door a better enclosure and reinforce the low end much better.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:36 pm

Thanks, Aron. I plan on taking it apart tonight. I'll get pics, measurements & wire colors.

cptnsolo77 · Post by **cptnsolo77** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:29 pm

I guess your current setup isnt a M&T and your plan is to convert it to one? Do you have an aftermarket amp? I asking becuase in the future that may be something I would like to do myself. Keep us posted.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:40 am

Quote, originally posted by cptnsolo77 »I guess your current setup isnt a M&T and your plan is to convert it to one? Do you have an aftermarket amp? I asking becuase in the future that may be something I would like to do myself. Keep us posted.No, my Vibe came with M&T. I just wanna upgrade the sub within the stock sub box.

DressedInBlack · Post by **DressedInBlack** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:32 am

i was bummed when i had to take my dream system out of my old Vibe knowing i wouldnt have the capital to put it into my new one. i do have the Tunes (sans Moon) and am extremely happy in the mean time.i will however be slowly building up my system again and am going to be coming to this thread for tips and to see your progress. im in the same boat as CaptSolo.

cptnsolo77 · Post by **cptnsolo77** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:32 am

Got it.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:03 am

Bunch of pics of the Stock M&T Sub from the 1 & 1.5 gen Vibe:

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

So I am assuming that only the stock sub will have the threaded hole in the back af the actual speaker that the bolt can go into. So, I would probably need to seal up the hole in the back of the box if I want to keep it a sealed box (preference) and not ported. Am I correct in my assumption? Based on the pics and measurements, would that Elemental Designs sub still be a good candidate? the mounting depth of the ED sub is 3.518". I'm also assuming that having the back of the speaker touching the back of the sub box is probably not a a good thing...?

papacueball · Post by **papacueball** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:30 am

Any idea what size the enclosure is?

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:04 am

Quote, originally posted by papacueball »Any idea what size the enclosure is? Sorry, not following what you are asking...?

papacueball · Post by **papacueball** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:12 am

I was wondering about the internal volume of the enclosure.

DrunkenMonster · Post by **DrunkenMonster** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:49 am

Just throwing this out there, but you could open up your choices a whole lot by making a half inch spacer or so and fit a JL sub in there.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:19 am

Quote, originally posted by papacueball »I was wondering about the internal volume of the enclosure.I'll measure the size of the enclosure tonight.EDIT: Okay, so the area where the speaker is mounted measures approximately 13"x9"x5" and the upper area measures 12"x7"x7".Quote, originally posted by DrunkenMonster »Just throwing this out there, but you could open up your choices a whole lot by making a half inch spacer or so and fit a JL sub in there.Thanks for the option. What models are available that would fit with a 1/2" spacer? I'm wondering if that might cause an issue with the stock surround panel that covers the sub box...? I'll have to look to see how close the stock panel is to the actual speaker.

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:39 am

BC, it's hard for me to make recommendations at this point... it's been a long time since I have done any research..Look at Dayton Audio (Parts Express) and TangBand.. That woofer is a DVC woofer, with the 2 inputs going to it.. might want to try and get a DVC woofer to matchAFA finding the enclosure volume is easy, get a 12x12x12 box full of packing peanuts and start filling the enclosure.. it's not exact, but close enough... you should easily be able to approximate volume this way.. I don't like the bolt through the enclosure into the speaker.. if the new speaker isn't bolted, that portion of the enclosure is going to flex like crazy (which is WHY they bolted it to begin with)BUT if the new speaker got close and you placed something dense between the 2 it might be ok.. Best I got for ya man..

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:40 am

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »BC, it's hard for me to make recommendations at this point... it's been a long time since I have done any research..Look at Dayton Audio (Parts Express) and TangBand.. That woofer is a DVC woofer, with the 2 inputs going to it.. might want to try and get a DVC woofer to matchAFA finding the enclosure volume is easy, get a 12x12x12 box full of packing peanuts and start filling the enclosure.. it's not exact, but close enough... you should easily be able to approximate volume this way.. I don't like the bolt through the enclosure into the speaker.. if the new speaker isn't bolted, that portion of the enclosure is going to flex like crazy (which is WHY they bolted it to begin with)BUT if the new speaker got close and you placed something dense between the 2 it might be ok.. Best I got for ya man.. Thanks, SW. Can I ask what you mean my dense? as in dense foam or particle board. I really have no clue...haha & What would be the best product to use to seal the bolt hole up?EDIT: After think about what you said I think I understand what you are saying. To put something dense like a real dense foam on the outside between the sub box and the frame/quarter panel or whatever is behind it to minimize the flex. Right? Or do you mean between the back of the speaker magnet and the back panel of the enclosure...? I'm such an audio noob.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:11 am

Well, I ordered the Elemental Designs sub that Aron recommended. It was really the only straight swap candidate available. I'll post pics when I receive it. http://www.edesignaudio.com/pr...id=33

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:21 am

NICE...!!!(ED is a lot of re-branded TangBand BTW...lol)And yes, I meant you should try putting something dense between the speaker (unless the pole piece is VENTED) and something between the enclosure and the car.. the more you can make it "one" unit, the better it will sound.. Adding some sound deadening to the enclosure wouldn't be a terrible idea either..

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:32 am

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »NICE...!!!(ED is a lot of re-branded TangBand BTW...lol)And yes, I meant you should try putting something dense between the speaker (unless the pole piece is VENTED) and something between the enclosure and the car.. the more you can make it "one" unit, the better it will sound.. Adding some sound deadening to the enclosure wouldn't be a terrible idea either.. Pole Piece? not sure what that is....are you referring to the hole at the bottom of the speaker?I like the idea of sound deadener on the outside of the enclosure. I think I will do that.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:31 pm

Next day delivery on the subwoofer is pretty good...lol. It looks good only one problem. The magnet on the new sub is so big that is does not sit all the way down in the enclosure. It doesn't help the fact that the bottom of the enclosure is slanted so the left side is shallower than the right as shown in the last 3 pics. Looks like I will be needing a spacer anyway. I plan on ordering the Polk db651 & 651s from Crutchfield and according to their site they include spacers as well. Maybe they will be thick enough...? We'll see. Here's some sub comparison pics:Found some 1/2" and 1" speaker spacer/extenders on Ebay for pretty cheap. I think I will get both 1/2" & 1" and try them out to see which will work better. Here is what they look like:My only question is there enough space between the interior panel that covers the sub and the sub itself if I use a 1/2" or 1" spacer, or will I need to get a different speaker grill like this 8" or something:

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:27 am

My apologies Brian for creating more work for you!how does the Grill on the M&T panel attach? Mount the empty enclosure with the grill removed and measure the space between.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:26 am

Quote, originally posted by audiovibe »My apologies Brian for creating more work for you!how does the Grill on the M&T panel attach? Mount the empty enclosure with the grill removed and measure the space between.No worries, Aron. It's all part of the process. I don't mind extra work if I can learn from it. I'll take off the panel later this week and get a measurement. I'm guessing the stock M&T speaker grill is attached to the panel, but I'll find out for sure.EDIT: I have 1/2" & 1" spacers on the way as well as 25sqft of FatMat.

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:54 am

You can try and remove the "ribs" inside to provide some clearance.. you "may" end up with a fiber glassing job... Like, cutting a small "relief" hole in the back of the enclosure, fiber glassing over the hole..

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:05 am

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »You can try and remove the "ribs" inside to provide some clearance.. you "may" end up with a fiber glassing job... Like, cutting a small "relief" hole in the back of the enclosure, fiber glassing over the hole.. Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. Maybe a combination of the 1/2" spacer and trimming the ribs will get everything to fit correctly. I'll be working on it this coming weekend along with installing my projectors.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:09 am

Interesting development. The 6.5" spacers arrived and they are too small for both the OEM and the new sub. According to my measurements, I will need 6-3/4" spacers.

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:47 am

Hey Brian, what size rings did you order? By the pics of the enclosure you posted it looks like you need a ring with 6 15/16" and the Id would need to be 5 23/32" to match the ED woofer. do you need both the 1/2" and 3/4" ring.I was cleaning my loft today and found some scrap MDF, I can shoot you a couple rings if you need new ones.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:07 am

I ordered what the seller called a 6-3/5" ring. = 5-3/4" ID & 7" OD. I already orderded it, so it should be here in a couple days. Thanks, though.

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:20 am

No prob let me know if those don't work.

DressedInBlack · Post by **DressedInBlack** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:40 am

Hey Brian, how much space is in the enclosure with the stock "sub box" pulled out? i was thinking that this space would be perfect to hide an amp or two...and perhaps use the stock grille for a cooling fan/exhaust.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:35 am

Quote, originally posted by DressedInBlack »Hey Brian, how much space is in the enclosure with the stock "sub box" pulled out? i was thinking that this space would be perfect to hide an amp or two...and perhaps use the stock grille for a cooling fan/exhaust.I haven't pulled mine out yet. Not sure if I'll get to it until spring. We'll see how the weather holds up in November.On a side note, the new MDF speaker spacers arrived and they fit and the speaker fits without any modifications to the fins on the interior of the sub box. I will have to get longer screws to hole the speaker in place, though. So, now I can start working on the box itself wrapping it with sound deadener and sealing the hole in the back from the oem speaker bolt. I'll take pics of the speaker with the spacer tonight.

DrunkenMonster · Post by **DrunkenMonster** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:14 am

Does the stock grille still fit?

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:07 am

I haven't verified that yet.

vibeance · Post by **vibeance** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:07 am

Can't wait to see how this turns out!If you have the '05 vibe M&T how'd you manage to bypass the amp?I'd like to replace mine (see my thread) so I'm looking for advice heh

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:54 am

Quote, originally posted by vibeance »Can't wait to see how this turns out!If you have the '05 vibe M&T how'd you manage to bypass the amp?I'd like to replace mine (see my thread) so I'm looking for advice heh I plan on using the stock amp with this set-up. I'm trying to make this as easy and PnP for myself as possible I'll be working on it this week so I will post more pics as I go.Side Note: I got a killer deal on a set of (4) brand new Polk db651 door speakers (w/crutchfield accessories) from a guy on MO. So I'll have to use a set of the other spacers I bought earlier for the fronts so it doesn't interfere with the window.

cptnsolo77 · Post by **cptnsolo77** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:15 am

Very cool. For some reason I thought you were using a aftermarket head unit....duh...at me.

vibeance · Post by **vibeance** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:26 am

My only concern with using the stock amp is that a) can it draw enough power to put in an aftermarket sub? If so what kind of watt/ohm can it support w/out thermal crashesb) when I upgraded my HU i lost control to turn up the sub, i can turn up the bass but it's not exclusive to the rear sub. Instead it turns the bass up on all speakers. (in second thought i believe the stock HU did the same thing but I guess I'm really wanting to control the sup independently of the other speakers.)

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:43 am

Quote, originally posted by cptnsolo77 »Very cool. For some reason I thought you were using a aftermarket head unit....duh...at me.No you are correct, I am using an aftermarket head unit. This one: http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=41475Quote, originally posted by vibeance »My only concern with using the stock amp is that a) can it draw enough power to put in an aftermarket sub? If so what kind of watt/ohm can it support w/out thermal crashesb) when I upgraded my HU i lost control to turn up the sub, i can turn up the bass but it's not exclusive to the rear sub. Instead it turns the bass up on all speakers. (in second thought i believe the stock HU did the same thing but I guess I'm really wanting to control the sup independently of the other speakers.)a) I don't know but I'll find out if it can draw enough power for this aftermarket sub. Not sure what support capabilities the stock am can support. I'm wingin' it. I'm an audio noob just having fun experimenting w/something that no one has done yet (that I know of). b) I do not have independent control over my sub either. Not really an issue for me at this point. We'll see though once I get all the door speakers and sub in.Another Side Note: Should I be using anything to seal the new sub to the MDF spacer to the existing plastic enclosure or is just screwing it good & tight, enough?

DrunkenMonster · Post by **DrunkenMonster** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:47 am

Been awhile, lol, where you at on this?

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:11 am

Yeah it has been a while. Been working 65-75hour weeks the past two months. Got the 6-3/4" MDF spacer and it fits perfect. The speaker does not touch the back of the enclosure. I need two questions answered before I can move forward:1)Should I be using anything to seal the new sub to the MDF spacer to the existing plastic enclosure or is just screwing it good & tight, enough?2) The bolt hole in the back of the enclosure lines up directly with the port on the back of the speaker. Not sure if I should be covering up the hole or leave it as-is and let it port out. I think I read that a non-ported enclosure will give a cleaner sounding base where as a ported enclosure will hit harder. Is this correct?Here are current pics with the spacer and speaker just resting on the enclosure:

06pvibe · Post by **06pvibe** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:52 am

Quote, originally posted by BlueCrush »Also, the stock sub says: 2+2 Ohms, 50+50 Watts. Does that mean it is 4 Ohms and 100 watts total? Sorry, I don't know audio terms or lingo very well. Based on this info does anyone have recommendations for a 6" or 6.5" sub?Brian, What that means is that the sub has two voice coils wound together (4 wires bringing power to the speaker) but kept separate electrically. In short, it requires a signal from both the right and left hand channels of the amp. Each voice coil is rated at 2 ohms of resistance and to handle 50 watts of power, and I'm guessing but would have to say that that would be a peak power rating per side, not RMS which would be closer to 25 watts.On a side note, I finally got the paint right on those eyelids and installed them today.

DrunkenMonster · Post by **DrunkenMonster** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:57 pm

Looking good, can't wait til you get to hear what it sounds like.

SlammedNiss · Post by **SlammedNiss** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:22 am

Quote, originally posted by BlueCrush »1)Should I be using anything to seal the new sub to the MDF spacer to the existing plastic enclosure or is just screwing it good & tight, enough?2) The bolt hole in the back of the enclosure lines up directly with the port on the back of the speaker. Not sure if I should be covering up the hole or leave it as-is and let it port out. I think I read that a non-ported enclosure will give a cleaner sounding base where as a ported enclosure will hit harder. Is this correct?1. You might silicone the spacer to the enclosure. I would imagine screwing the sub to the spacer should be good enough. If you have some foam lying around it wouldn't hurt though.2. Sealed enclosures typically have cleaner, tighter bass. Good for rock, country, etc. Ported enclosures are said to play 3db louder than their sealed counterpart, but the bass is "sloppy". Good for rap style music. Ported enclosures usually need to be tuned to sound correct. IMO, leave it sealed.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:36 am

Quote, originally posted by SlammedNiss »1. You might silicone the spacer to the enclosure. I would imagine screwing the sub to the spacer should be good enough. If you have some foam lying around it wouldn't hurt though.2. Sealed enclosures typically have cleaner, tighter bass. Good for rock, country, etc. Ported enclosures are said to play 3db louder than their sealed counterpart, but the bass is "sloppy". Good for rap style music. Ported enclosures usually need to be tuned to sound correct. IMO, leave it sealed.Exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks for the reply Brandon!!

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:09 am

Quote, originally posted by SlammedNiss »1. You might silicone the spacer to the enclosure. I would imagine screwing the sub to the spacer should be good enough. If you have some foam lying around it wouldn't hurt though.2. Sealed enclosures typically have cleaner, tighter bass. Good for rock, country, etc. Ported enclosures are said to play 3db louder than their sealed counterpart, but the bass is "sloppy". Good for rap style music. Ported enclosures usually need to be tuned to sound correct. IMO, leave it sealed.Agreed and agreed, seal it as tight as possible...

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:57 pm

What they said the tighter the better! I would seal the hole on the rear of the stock enclosure, or you could get creative and add a port to the enclosure to maximize the SQ but that port would have to be probably 30-40" long to get a low enough tuning frequency to not have ghetto bass per say. Now if you could easily fit a ported enclosure in that space, I would say do a ported enclosure, a properly built and tuned ported enclosure will always be better as it will yield a deeper tone and extend the low end and the response will be just as flat as a sealed counterpart, an improper ported enclosure will yield a peak in the in the response, it will gain output at a specific frequencies, and will tend to sound boomy. Another way to look at it would be why do high end home manufactures (not talking klipsch here, more like B&W, and Audio Nouveau type stuff) tend to use a ported enclosure for their $20,000 mains, its not to make them louder.Now I am not contradicting anything from the above post as to ported enclosures being more sloppy as the generally are, I was just giving the reason why if anyone was curious.

DrunkenMonster · Post by **DrunkenMonster** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:11 am

So, how did this turn out?

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:43 pm

Bumping this thread, as I will start back up working on it this weekend. I haven't done anything on it since last fall. I will post more pics as I go.

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