Battery keeps dying

[OCD-A3]

Cliff's notes: Replaced battery and alternator this week, both were tested good at Autozone today, battery is still dying every 2 days. Extreme detail follows...Hello all,This is my first post here. I've been lurking for a while and have picked up so much invaluable information in repairing and maintaining my girlfriend's 2003 Vibe (1ZZ). Now I've run into something that has stumped me though, so I finally have cause to register.Basically, the battery keeps dying every couple of days. She had an el cheapo Wal-Mart battery which is a month shy of three years old. Would still be under warranty until next month, but we don't have the receipt so Wal-Mart won't honor it. Living in Florida I am used to batteries not lasting forever, so we went and bought a new one at Autozone. Again, it was the cheap EverLast brand, only 1 year warranty but she plans on selling the car by this time next year. Even though it's cheap, it's rated at 540 CCA, so it should be plenty. She doesn't have any mods or heavy drains on the electrical system.The new battery runs fine for a couple days, then dies again after being parked overnight. So I jump start it and test the voltage the alternator is putting out. It wouldn't go above 13.2v even at 4-5k RPMs. So I pull the alternator, take it to Autozone, and get a new (well, remanufactured) unit. Now I chose to get the alternator that is spec'ed for the 2ZZ. It is a direct bolt on, the housing and connectors are exactly the same. Plus, it is rated for 5 more amps (85 vs. 80) and one member here stated that it has better bearings to stand up to higher RPMs. AND it is $25 cheaper, so it's a win-win-win-win.So I put the new alternator in, test the voltage and it is putting out 14.2v at idle, great. Everything runs fine for a day, then we didn't drive it the next day. Today it is dead again, REALLY dead. Nonoe of the dome lights, instrument lights, etc even came on. I metered the battery and it was sitting at 1v! So I pull the battery out and we take it back to Autozone. I'm thinking all of the full discharges + jumpstarts / recharges have killed this cheesy little EverStart battery. Well the manager charged it for an hour, then tested it and said it was putting out 720 CA. So we go back home, I drop the battery back in the Vibe and drive back to Autozone to test the alt. That tested fine too.Now I am at a complete loss. I'm no ASE certified tech, but I have tackled many projects that are much more involved than a battery and alt. Right now I've go the battery disconnected. I am going to check the voltage again in the morning to see if the battery is draining on its own. If not, I'm going to have to chase down some parasitic loss somewhere.We have confirmed there are no lights staying on. I've read about the faulty light switches in the '03s, but it's 80+ degrees here, hardly the extreme cold that was triggering the others. I did install a new head unit 2 weeks before this problem started, but again I'm not exactly a newb to audio installs either. The 12v constant, acc, and ground are all correct. The unit turns on and off properly with the ignition. She has the M&T package with the factory amp under the passenger seat. The amp turn on lead in the Metra harness is correctly connected to the amp turn on lead on the Alpine harness. The only other thing that was added was an Alpine Bluetooth module, but I have verified that it is shutting off too by watching the phone drop the connection when the ignition turns off. Besides, we had no problem for 2 weeks after installing the head unit, now the battery drains every 2 days. I don't think that's the issue.One thing to note, the old Wal-Mart battery had a nice growth of corrosion on the positive terminal when I did a full tune up about 4,000 miles ago. I cleaned it off both the terminal and connector, then sprayed the whole thing with red corrosion inhibitor. It has not returned since. I also installed a new belt tensioner and Goodyear Gatorback belt at that time.My next step is to put the factory head unit back in just to eliminate that possibility. From there I will probably clean and beef up all of the primary grounds and +12v wires on the alt, battery, fuse box, chassis, and block. This is only a band aid fix though.Anyone else have any ideas? I've been through almost every post with the words 'battery' and 'alternator' here and on Matrix Owners and haven't found anything. Any help is greatly appreciated!

[L5K]

I have never heard of such a problem in any car. My best guess would be as you said, "a parasitic loss" from somewhere. I would almost guess it could possibly be a short somewhere. You might check to see if the amplifier is properly turning off when the ignition is off. Even with a harness, the wires MAY be in the wrong position in the aftermarket harnesses, I have heard of this happening with the M & T system, though mine was not this way... My best guess would be to say that it's possible that the amplifier is still drawing power when the ignition is off, and there would be no visible indication of such a thing happening. The causes of this as I would estimate could be, as I said, the amp turn on lead from the harness is in the incorrect spot, or perhaps the HU itself isn't working properly and is still supplying power to the amp when the ignition is off.Barring those, I would say possibly a short somewhere in the system could be draining the battery. First thing I'd check is unplugging the amplifier and running without it for a bit. Do this first as it's the easiest. If that doesn't work, then swap the head unit back to stock and reconnect the amplifier. If that doesn't do it... I'm really not sure.

[Raven]

Hook up a multimeter on the battery and then one by one remove and replace fuses until you find the one which is causing the current draw. This should narrow down where the problem is.

[lovemyraffe]

Bizarre. It sounds like you have taken the right steps to make sure things are working the way they should. Next I would take all the electrical back to OEM as much as possible, but it sounds like you are planning on doing that anyway.p.s. welcome

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by Raven »Hook up a multimeter on the battery and then one by one remove and replace fuses until you find the one which is causing the current draw. This should narrow down where the problem is.That's what I'd do. If there is a drain sufficient to empty the battery in two days, pulling the fuse for that load should cause a slight (and hopefully significant enough to see on the meter) increase in battery voltage, especially if the battery is already partially discharged

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by Raven »Hook up a multimeter on the battery and then one by one remove and replace fuses until you find the one which is causing the current draw. This should narrow down where the problem is.What he's saying is, get a multimeter, you can get cheap ones at Walmart for 15$.. should do.. Remove the + battery terminal, set the meter to the current settings, this often requires a change in the lead location on the meter, sometimes not.. Place the meter leads between the battery and battery CABLE... so you are bridging the gap... It should tell you, you are drawing xxx amount of current... should be a very small number (inless it's reading in Milli, then it could be quite large) then go around the fuse box, and pull one fuse at a time.. each time, check to see if the draw on the meter has changed any... replace the fuse... When and if you find a circuit that changes the draw drastically, you then need to look deeper at what is on that circuit..

[OCD-A3]

Thank you everyone for the quick responses! I left the battery unhooked last night, and this morning it had only dropped by .05v, so tonight I will start checking for 'vampires.' I'll be sure to let you guys know what I find!

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »Place the meter leads between the battery and battery CABLE... so you are bridging the gap... That's good for a small enough current. I don't know how many amps it takes to suck a battery dry in two days, but most of the RS multimeters are rated for current in the milliamp range. If the parasitic load draws more than 200/250 milliamps, you'll turn that brand new meter into an expensive low current fuse

[OCD-A3]

Ok, so I just got done digging around in the fuse box. Thankfully, it is not the amp, head unit, or Bluetooth, as I physically unplugged all of the above and the change in current draw is nominal (.01-.02 amp).What I found is that the load seems to be something in the dome light circuit. In the fuse box in the engine bay this is the 15 amp fuse labeled 'DOME.' While this fuse is connected, the car is drawing .26-.27 amp, when I pull this fuse it is drawing .01 or less. According to the owner's manual (pg. 6-74) these are the things on this circuit: Interior Lights, Gauges and Meters, Audio System, and Remote Keyless Entry System.We can strike the audio system, as everything is unplugged. How many and where are all of the interior lights? I count three: one by the sunroof buttons which is turned on by switch only, one above the center console which turns on when the door is opened, and one over the cargo area which also turns on when the door is open. I pulled all three of these bulbs and the draw is still the same. Are there any I am missing, perhaps that are shorted and are not coming on? Glove box, foot well, under door, under hood, etc? None of the gauges are lit or active when the car is off. Remote keyless entry- does anyone know where this module lives? I'd like to unplug it and see if anything changes.And finally, a quick tip so that others can learn from my mistake: When you are trying to find a parasitic drain, CLOSE THE DOORS! I unwittingly left the driver's door open while I was checking fuses and I was puzzled at the fact that every time I checked the draw it would read .26 amp for about 1/2 second then jump to 1.4 amps! It finally dawned on me that the car was kicking on the dome light every time I bridged the positive cable because the door was open! Also, know what size fuse your multimeter uses and keep a few spares on hand. I couldn't get any readings at first, turns out my meter had a blown fuse, apparently from the last time I measured current on something. Luckily, I have a few meters laying around (I repair electronics, they get a lot of action) and I just grabbed a backup.Thanks again to everyone for your help so far, and for any further advice you can provide!

[Sublimewind]

Nice... Check my Signature, I have a link to the service manual, I'm sure the electrical diagrams will come in handy..

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »That's good for a small enough current. I don't know how many amps it takes to suck a battery dry in two days, but most of the RS multimeters are rated for current in the milliamp range. If the parasitic load draws more than 200/250 milliamps, you'll turn that brand new meter into an expensive low current fuseIt's the only way to test for current draw in the system, unfortunately, you have to put the meter in-line with the system... and you can't get an inductive reading from it either, it's DC.. most decent meters are rated to 10A (at least my BluePoint is and my old Fluke was)... not knowing if anyone has a decent meter is the problem..

[Tonebalone]

You're on the right track. I had an '02 Impala that was killing batteries every two days. Found the BCM was the culprit by using the same ammeter/fuse pulling method you're using. Good luck!

[OCD-A3]

Ok so I spent a bunch of time on the car again last night. BTW it died again yesterday afternoon, this time the battery only lasted ~1.5 days.When I checked the current draw again with the car off it was pulling 1.5 amps! Last time I checked it was only pulling .25 amp. This time when I pulled the fuse for the amp the current dropped back down to .25, and then pulling the dome light fuse brought it down to .01 amp. This is puzzling, since having the amp connected two days ago produced no draw beyond the .25 amp I was getting already.So I pulled the head unit out, re-checked the amp turn on lead and traced it all the way to the amp. I metered it and it is putting out 12v (well, 11.8, but close enough) when the HU is on, and nothing when it is off. This is definitely working correctly, so I start checking the whole harness for the amp. The main power lead was putting out 12v, and there were two or three other pins all in a row that were putting out .93v when the car is off. I don't know what these are for, but I don't think .93v is going to keep the amp on.Now I'm thinking that maybe the amp is expecting some other "signal" from the head unit to turn on/off, so I put the stock HU back in. Now it is drawing 3 amps when off! I disconnect the HU, back to 1.5 amps. Disconnect the amp, back to .25 amp. Now the aftermarket unit draws virtually nothing, so finally I said screw it and put the aftermarket HU back in, then I wired a SPST relay into the amp harness under the seat so that the relay controls the main 12v power to the amp and is switched by the amp turn on lead from the head unit.So now the amp is not drawing power when the car is off. The only negative side effect is that there is a small pop from the speakers when you turn the car or HU off, but hardly noticeable. However, the car is still drawing .25 amp when off, which still seems high. According to Autozone's website, the battery we bought has a reserve capacity of 81. So it will run for 81 minutes with a draw of 25 amps at 80 degrees F and still maintain 10.5v. If the car is drawing .25 amp when off, the battery would be dead in ~5 days of sitting.Does anyone else have any thoughts on what a normal draw is for the car when it is off? Thanks!

[star_deceiver]

When you're testing the current draw, was the door open causing the dome light to be lit?

[OCD-A3]

Quote, originally posted by star_deceiver »When you're testing the current draw, was the door open causing the dome light to be lit?Haha, I did make the mistake the before, but this time I did make sure all of the doors were closed and the dome lights were off while testing.

[Sublimewind]

I can't remember if you said you where running an aftermarket amp or not... The relay, did you connect it to the HU remote turn on line (blue wire) ?? If so a diode needs to be added to the line to make sure the relay doesn't backfeed the HU RTO circuit and blow it..

[OCD-A3]

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »I can't remember if you said you where running an aftermarket amp or not... No, factory amp. Not sure why it is staying on, even when reverting to the stock HU.Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »The relay, did you connect it to the HU remote turn on line (blue wire) ?? If so a diode needs to be added to the line to make sure the relay doesn't backfeed the HU RTO circuit and blow it.. Yes, I connected the relay to the amp turn on lead (blue w/ white stripe coming from the Alpine harness). I connected it to the wire in the amp harness which corresponds to the amp turn on lead, verified it by checking continuity between the end on the amp harness and the end on the HU harness.I can add a diode between the relay and the HU, but how would it backfeed the HU? I am using a SPST relay, so the 12v lead from the amp only serves to open and close the circuit in the relay. The two terminals which bridge the main power for the amp do not physically touch the terminal that the lead from the headunit is connected to.http://www.eurekaboy.com/f250/relay101.htm

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by OCD-A3 »Does anyone else have any thoughts on what a normal draw is for the car when it is off? Thanks!On mine, I disconnected the battery, then left it disconnected for a long time till I scrounged up a replacement fuse becaue the one in my meter was blown. FInally get back to the car with a funtional meter, and I was pulling 1.4 amps, doors shut, everything off. I was surprised at how much. I stood there looking at it, and after a little while it dropped to 1.2 amps. Weird. I stood lloking at it some more, and it dropped to 180 milliamps, where it stayed.So I unhooked it, and hooked it back up and the current was 1.2 amps. I timed it, and after 50 seconds, the draw dropped to 180 mA. 180 mA I can deal with. I figure the car goes through a bit of waking up and checking itself out before it settles into a steady state standby mode. Maybe the 1.4 A was after being unhooked for a while, the 1.2 A is after a short disconnect, and the 180 mA is the steadystate standby. At least on my 03 base 5 speed with factory M&T.And thanks for this thread prompting me to go measure. I never had the problem with the OEM battery, but the one I have in there now seems to grow blue/white deposits on the positive terminal, and I was overdue for a cleaning.If you are drawing .25, and I am pulling .18, most likely difference is the keyless entry, which I do not haveQuote, originally posted by OCD-A3 » According to Autozone's website, the battery we bought has a reserve capacity of 81. So it will run for 81 minutes with a draw of 25 amps at 80 degrees F and still maintain 10.5v. If the car is drawing .25 amp when off, the battery would be dead in ~5 days of sitting.There's "Peukert's law", basically the capacity of a battery descreases as the discharge rate increasescapacity = Hours * discharge amps^1.3 (1.3 is peukert constant for a good lead acid battery)25A for 81 minutes(1.35 h) 1.35 * (25^1.3) = 88.6 (25A for 81 minutes is only 33.75 AH)at a discharge rate of .25 the same battery (capacity=88.6) solved to H=537, or 22 days. (.25A for 537 hours is 134.25 Amp hours)so in terms of amp hours, discharging at .25 amps instead of 25 amps gives you 134 AH instead of 34, roughly four times longer

[OCD-A3]

Thanks for the info joatmon! Glad to hear that what it's drawing now is about normal. I never heard of Peukert's Law before either, good info!So far the car has been good since Thursday (including sittign without being driven all day on Saturday), so I'm cautiously optimistic that everything is ok.

[keithvibe]

do you happen to have an automatic car started or alarm on the car? A relay could have gone bad leaving an open circut causing the constant draw on the system. I had this issue a few years ago with an automatic car starter the relay was bad so it was constantly drawing power and causing the battery to die

[slaning]

Same problem years ago, turned out to be the rearview mounted map lights. Duh, but stumped me for a while.

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by OCD-A3 »Thanks for the info joatmon! Glad to hear that what it's drawing now is about normal. I never heard of Peukert's Law before either, good info!So far the car has been good since Thursday (including sittign without being driven all day on Saturday), so I'm cautiously optimistic that everything is ok. I am confused - what did the problem turn out to be?

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by OCD-A3 »No, factory amp. Not sure why it is staying on, even when reverting to the stock HU.Yes, I connected the relay to the amp turn on lead (blue w/ white stripe coming from the Alpine harness). I connected it to the wire in the amp harness which corresponds to the amp turn on lead, verified it by checking continuity between the end on the amp harness and the end on the HU harness.I can add a diode between the relay and the HU, but how would it backfeed the HU? I am using a SPST relay, so the 12v lead from the amp only serves to open and close the circuit in the relay. The two terminals which bridge the main power for the amp do not physically touch the terminal that the lead from the headunit is connected to.http://www.eurekaboy.com/f250/relay101.htmQuenching Diode: http://www.bcae1.com/ Topic 36 and about 3/4 of the way down the topic....

[OCD-A3]

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »I am confused - what did the problem turn out to be?You and me both The factory amp was staying on. I don't have the slightest idea what caused it, because I put the stock head unit back in, expecting that the Alpine head unit was keeping it on. With the stock HU back in, the current draw while off actually doubled! So I said eff it and used a relay to cut power to the amp when the HU is off and put the Alpine back in.

[xrobx]

i found this thread on google, i am having the exact same problem only i have a 2009 vibe. the battery mysteriously was dead on my car one day, and it was brand new only a few months old. thinking i must have left lights on, i took the battery and get it charged at autozone, and afterwards it was fine. then a week later it did the same thing. i noticed that when i use the car every day it's fine but if i go more than one day without using it, it's dead. it has happened multiple times now. i have made sure no lights and nothing else is on. i'm so fed up it's under a full warranty so i'm taking it back to the dealership tomorrow