Are american cars really that bad?

[Mavrik]

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/2...x.htmnow I'm not one to completely trust JD Power... but interesting article.

[fitness freak]

I share your reservation about JD Power research. They seem to focus on the reliability during the first year of ownership. What was "above average" reliability 10 years ago could be "worse then average" today. Reliability is a moving target because of constant improvement. If the Asian manufactures had not continued to made reliability improvements the big three would of caught up by now. My personal experience is that the big three are nearly equal to Asian reliability (if you don't count squeaks, rattles, ill-fitting body panels) for the first 60,000 miles. After that Asian reliability rules. My office motor pool has 2 Chevy Caviler's. One has 50K, the other 60K. No unscheduled repairs have been necessary in the 3 years we have had them. On the other hand, I can tell you they are not pleasant to drive. The ride is sloppy with lots of noise. I am really enjoying the reliability of my Vibe. It's too bad GM wasn't able to engineer a vehicle like this on their own.

[ColonelPanic]

Quote »Reviews: GM and Ford vehicles haven't always exuded the quality that may have been hiding in there somewhere. Cheap-feeling interior materials, raspy-sounding engines and gap-filled construction didn't give potential buyers the feeling of confidence that even lesser Japanese brands manage to carry off.(removed)! "Cheap-feeling interior materials, raspy-sounding engines and gap-filled construction," that sounds mighty familiar! Let me see if I can remember where I found all that stuff... Oh yeah, in my Toyota-engineered Vibe! After hearing so many say that your Toyota isn't even broken in at 100,000 miles or whatever, and having a tranny puke at 63,000 along with every other problem I've had and continue to have, the question I'm wanting to find the answer to is "Are Japanese cars really that good?" 'course we all know my car fell off the line at NUMMI after they put every single defective part they could find into it, they picked it up, kicked it, beat it with sledgehammers and popped the dents out, put 50% of the bolts back in to get the stuff put back together, loaded it on a truck, it fell off the truck, then the dealer fixed it up again and sold it to some idiot. But still, as my first venture into the Japanese auto ownership world, things are looking FAR from favorable for those guys. I'd rather go for the underdog next time around, and I will. Save money and will get a better car, after all it won't take much at all to get a better car than what I have now.

[northvibe]

man i will not or have not had a car past 150k miles, to much "could" go wrong with that age to ANY brand car.

[GMJAP]

Asian automakers certainly don't have perfect, or even near perfect, reliability. I know of some lemons. However, most poople I know who've had "lemons" or just lots of problems have had domestic or German vehicles. I think the only domestic auto my parents ever owned was a Ford Aerostar, and it put my father completely off domestics; it was the worst vehicle they'd owned for problems, and has only been matched by an Audi. ('course now he has a Vibe, but only because it's Toyota underneath.)There are reasons domestic automakers are deeply in the red, while Asian makers are generally profitable. And they aren't just unions and bad marketing. One can drone on about how publications and opinion are biased against domestic automakers on reliability and quality. And there might truly be some bias. However, I strongly feel that where there's smoke, there's fire and overblown or not domestics don't have as good a handle on quality and reliability.

[AKLGT]

i think it just depends on the model car itself. we had a 1983 toyota tercel wagon, new with 7 miles off the lot and sold it in 1997 with 250K+ miles. still ran great! also, my family has owned their 03 Chevy Impala LS and it has about 100K miles on it already, no major problems and runs great. you can get a lemon from any bunch, however, with the exception of the Impala, I would probably not ever buy another Domestic vehicle. the reason i bought the VGT back in 03 was because it was a Toyota and I liked the look of it better than it's matrix sister. When i traded it in for my 05 Legacy GT last April, it reminded me why I swore I wouldn't buy another domestic car again after the raping i took on resale value. hopefully we'll have Mav's vibe paid off in the next 2 years so when we replace it, it won't matter.

[kostby]

Note to ColonelPanic: A lemon is a lemon, regardless of it's country of origin or manufacturer. Yes, unfortunately sometimes ALL the tolerances add up wrong, and all the defective parts end up on the same car: Sir Knocksalot is obviously a case in point!My 'real lemon' was an Audi Fox, built in Germany in 1974. I think it was started on a Friday and finished on a Monday during Oktoberfest. I had the car three days, and had driven it a couple of hundred miles when the bolts that attached the gear shift fell out of the transmission. I was 50 miles from the nearest dealer. Had it towed there at my expense. Went back to the home dealership to complain, and my salesman had been let go earlier that day... I was a broke college student, so I kept the car until 1980...The week before I traded the car in, I was driving with my mother and stopped at a light. I commented how the car had been running well, and I hadn't had any problems lately. At that exact moment, the condenser wire on the mechanical distributor (1970's ignition technology, remember) broke inside the insulation where it was undetectable (and the car unstartable) until the condenser was replaced two days later.I decided to trade it in immediately. The DAY BEFORE I traded it, I was on the way to the dealer to sign the papers on the new car, and the muffler fell off, so I had to spend more money to fix it.

[jake75]

Comparing the Consumer Reports data "based on owners' responses" for the Vibe and the Matrix has convinced me that part of the problem is the owners' perception. Toyota owners think they have a great car and rate it accordingly. Vibe owners perhaps were a little more objective. Any other reason why the Matrix would recieve a better report from owners than the Vibe? Unless those well paid UAW workers at Nummi don't do as good a job as the Canadians.

[B18B]

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »Toyota owners think they have a great car and rate it accordingly. Vibe owners perhaps were a little more objective.Jake, while I agree that owners' perception plays a role in how Consumers Reports reliability data is filled out, to say that Vibe owners "were a little more objective" is mighty presumptuous of you. How could you even begin to substantiate such a preposturous claim?As for quality differences in the Vibe and the Matrix, I think its entirely possible for the two cars to score differently. For one, most of the parts are locally sourced (here at TMMC anyways) so supplier quality can certainly differ; Also, the two cars are manufactured in different manufacturing facilities with different equipment with different workers...Truth be told, none of us can really make an educated statement wrt the validity of CR data without looking at the raw data itself.

[scherry2]

Quote, originally posted by B18B »As for quality differences in the Vibe and the Matrix, I think its entirely possible for the two cars to score differently. For one, most of the parts are locally sourced (here at TMMC anyways) so supplier quality can certainly differ; Also, the two cars are manufactured in different manufacturing facilities with different equipment with different workers...thats a good response. quality issues are different at each factory. jake has probably never been in an assembly factory. but what he does know is "unless those well paid UAW workers at Nummi don't do as good a job as the Canadians."I wonder if he knows there is a CAW.

[ToolGuy]

My parents and I have never had a lemon and I feel a lot depends on how it is taken care of. Most of the vehicles we have had were GM and never had an engine or trans failure. And collectively put millions of miles on our domestic vehicles too.I have driven most when I was a Valet in College for five years and I have detailed and worked on both domestic and foreign. I work in the auto industry now, have worked at two different GM sites and my wife worked for Audi/VW & Lexus, my point...ALL have issues...Me on the other hand have owned both domestic and foreign.In the end do people really keep vehicles that long any more to really care? (nope)People are not loyal to one brand as they used to be either, comes down to style, price and function... And define American car anymore... Only two I can think of that are designed here, built here and profits stay here are the Corvette and Dodge Viper but DCX is owned by Daimler and people still say it is not an American car now. We all know all have foreign parts too so I digress...

[Vibe_dude]

Quote, originally posted by scherry2 »thats a good response. quality issues are different at each factory. jake has probably never been in an assembly factory. but what he does know is "unless those well paid UAW workers at Nummi don't do as good a job as the Canadians."I wonder if he knows there is a CAW.There is a CAW but Toyota is not amoung the group of ppl it represnets......its ford GM and chrysler....one reason that toyota and honda can compete.......they can pay there imployees what ever they want.....and pensions and all the other things that ford and GM are having problems with today.

[mcgusto82]

exactly. no one keeps their car anymore. people are always looking at the new thing. all cars will take the beating when it comes to trading them in when youa re still paying for them. i went into the hole 3g's when i traded my spec v. a nissan you know.. good carm, but the vibe has a better quality build. consumer reports have been in bed with toyota for years. i don't trust their reports due to that every car they've ever condemed, i've always liked. you have to buy what you like not what some magazine tells you is better. jd power does a better service because they keep up with the fact that the vehicle experience dies off after 3 or 4 years, and most people go for it again. domestics are better design (atleast now), and have always kept with innovations. we just never noticed. those who think imports are better for the sake that they are imports knows little about car ownership.

[scherry2]

Quote, originally posted by Vibe_dude »..one reason that toyota and honda can compete.......they can pay there imployees what ever they want.....and pensions and all the other things that ford and GM are having problems with today.I'm sure (but would need to hear it from a TMMC worker) is the pay is pretty much in line with GM and Ford ect... they probably have a 401k that the employees contribute to, which maybe like some companys, match dollar for dollar. but back to the topic:no, american cars aren't that bad. they are assembled just like the foreign automakers from the frame up. I think it all comes down to personal preference, and whether your willing to try an automaker you have a stereotype against.

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by B18B »Jake, while I agree that owners' perception plays a role in how Consumers Reports reliability data is filled out, to say that Vibe owners "were a little more objective" is mighty presumptuous of you. How could you even begin to substantiate such a preposturous claim?As for quality differences in the Vibe and the Matrix, I think its entirely possible for the two cars to score differently. For one, most of the parts are locally sourced (here at TMMC anyways) so supplier quality can certainly differ; Also, the two cars are manufactured in different manufacturing facilities with different equipment with different workers...Truth be told, none of us can really make an educated statement wrt the validity of CR data without looking at the raw data itself.Obviously my comment was mere conjecture - you omitted the "perhaps" in my comment - but far short of preposterous. [You won't be able to discern the validty of the CR data by looking at the raw data as the raw data is the reports of the Matric and Vibe owners which woudl reflect their perceptions and bias, if any.]If it is true that "most if the parts are locally sourced", and thus the parts in a Vibe are made by different companies than the parts in a Matrix, that will be news to many of us here. I for one always assumed that essentially all of the mechanical parts were the same. So if my Vibe water pump or alternator fails, I should go have it replaced at a Toyota dealer?Would be interesting to review the CR owners reports on the Corolla vs. Prizm of some years ago. They were both made at Nummi.

[scherry2]

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »If it is true that "most if the parts are locally sourced", and thus the parts in a Vibe are made by different companies than the parts in a Matrix, that will be news to many of us here. I for one always assumed that essentially all of the mechanical parts were the same. So if my Vibe water pump or alternator fails, I should go have it replaced at a Toyota dealer? I don't think he mentioned mechanical. I think he was talking along the lines of trim parts, some electrical, seats, ect.. the seats in the GMC and Chevy trucks we build are made by Johnson Controls which has alot of small plants churning out seats, and the plant here in ossian Indiana makes seats for our GM plant only.example: your front door glass is made by XXX. XXX has production factorys in 2 different large cities. 1 city delivers to nummi, while the other delivers to TMMC. different quality from the same supplier. does that help?

[ngilbert]

No, North American cars are not bad. I think they're pretty good, based on my experiences. Personally, I think the biases and stereotypes that North American cars developed (deservedly) during the 70's and 80's have still lingered on to today, even though there is tonnes of evidence to the contrary. It's like if your old man had a bad Dodge Shadow with the peel-a-way paint from the 80's, you have the (incorrect) notion that all Dodges are bad and still bad, even though their quality has greatly improved.One thing I've noticed it the threshold for a problem is remarkable lower for a North American car to a Aisan car. A squeak or rattle in a Cavalier means the car is a piece of crap, the same wouldn't even register for a Honda. And of course resale values reflect this weirdness.

[Vibe_dude]

Quote, originally posted by ngilbert »One thing I've noticed it the threshold for a problem is remarkable lower for a North American car to a Aisan car. A squeak or rattle in a Cavalier means the car is a piece of crap, the same wouldn't even register for a Honda. And of course resale values reflect this weirdness. amen to that bro.......i have been saying that for years.....and u think they have made over 10 million j-bodies in 20 odd years...thats alot o cars.....more cars = more possiblity of problems.

[Mavrik]

rattles in a cavalier... well... its no cadillac, whatcha expect?

[scherry2]

Quote, originally posted by Mavrik »rattles in a cavalier... well... its no cadillac, whatcha expect? oh yes they were... 1982: The Cadillac Cimarron is introduced to the masses. and ended in 1988I worked in the Janesville, Wisconsin plant when GM built them. Stylized Cavalier.they had 2 guys per shift and when the cimmerons came off the end of the line they would go over the whole car inspecting everything then waxing, polishing, and cleaning up the cars for shipment.GM was scraping the bottom of the Cadillac barrel back then.

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by scherry2 »I don't think he mentioned mechanical. I think he was talking along the lines of trim parts, some electrical, seats, ect.. the seats in the GMC and Chevy trucks we build are made by Johnson Controls which has alot of small plants churning out seats, and the plant here in ossian Indiana makes seats for our GM plant only.example: your front door glass is made by XXX. XXX has production factorys in 2 different large cities. 1 city delivers to nummi, while the other delivers to TMMC. different quality from the same supplier. does that help? The statement was "For one, most of the parts are locally sourced (here at TMMC anyways) so supplier quality can certainly differ;".What's "most". [Better ask Bill Clinton.]

[scherry2]

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »The statement was "For one, most of the parts are locally sourced (here at TMMC anyways) so supplier quality can certainly differ;". yea and he was right. quality of parts differ from plant to plant, in a non-mechanical sense.

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by scherry2 »yea and he was right. quality of parts differ from plant to plant, in a non-mechanical sense. What does "non-mechanical sense" mean?

[scherry2]

interior plastic parts. headliners, body moldings, some metal body parts, screws and bolts, seats, windsheilds, door glass, door handles, and some electrical parts.basically non drivetrain

[Stang2Vibe]

I've got a question since this all but came up. Are there any Asian or German auto brands/models that are made in the US or Canada that are made in plants by non-UAW or non-CAW (or some other auto workers union) represented workers?And are there any domestic models that are made in the US or Canada not made by union-represented workers? I'd like to do a quick mental check for myself of any of those makes/models and how I perceive their quality/reliability as compared to the makes/models that are made by union-represented workers.Off the top of my head, most of the crappy domestics seem to be largely made in Mexico by non-union workers.

[ColonelPanic]

Quote, originally posted by Stang2Vibe »I've got a question since this all but came up. Are there any Asian or German auto brands/models that are made in the US or Canada that are made in plants by non-UAW or non-CAW (or some other auto workers union) represented workers?Non-union eh? It may be easier to ask which vehicles are built in a union shop. According to this list on the UAW's site, the only models with a foreign nameplate I found built here in the US and have ties to a union are the Corolla, Tacoma, Eclipse, Galant, and Mazda 6. Not surprisingly, these plants all have ties of some sort with one of the big 3. We know the deal about NUMMI. While Chrysler and Mitsubishi used to be buddy buddy but aren't so much these days, the Dodge Stratus is still built at the Mitsubishi plant in Illinois. And finally, we have what seems to be the result of Ford and Mazda hooking up when it comes to the 6. Looks to me like the "joint ventures" or whatever you'd like to call them with an American company were the only ones who ended up with unions.Whereas I can think of seven manufacturers off the top of my head that build cars here without union representation... Those of Asian origin: Hyundai, Nissan, Honda, Subaru and Toyota (sans NUMMI.) For Germany, Mercedes and BMW also have plants here. And from what I gather they have no unions either. I'm not 100% on any of this, there could always be an exception here or there...