steering wheel controls project has hit a snag-suggestions?

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:56 pm

for those of you who i haven't talked to or haven't put two and two together, i am working on making some steering wheel controls for the vibe.the stock radio (1 cd for sure and most likely the 6cd) actually accept steering wheel controls as previous reported on this board (thanks LT4).i have confirmed that and controlled the radio thorough the two pin in the back. its a resistor divider just like th grand prixs use. so in theory if you use the stock radio, you can have radio controls.well, i made up the controls out of silicon switches (like a fold-able keyboard) and flex wire. they are ready to go. i was not going to take the steering wheel off, but was inspired to do so after i saw that only three pins of the connector for the cruise control were used through the clock spring (dont worry i followed the airbag disarm instructions). well. the unused pins aren't there at all, so i cannot route anything through the clockspring without removing something, and i don't want to do that.the other option is to mount the button on top of the column where it doesn't rotate with the wheels, but that's borderline useless since you might as well reach to the radio.another option that crossed my mind is to try and go wireless and try and get power from a 12v supply, but i doubt that makes cost sense. i am after all trying to do this rather than pay for a new HU or wheel.Well, one of the things i like about the gen vibe board is that a lot of people are quick to offer a good idea, so anybody got one?please keep it constructive... there is already enough "ah just give up its not worth it" out there...let me know what you think. i probably wont sleep much tonight since this problem is whirring around in ym head.thanks guys. Jeff

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:24 pm

I haven't a clue what to tell you on this one, but... I will offer some encouragement at least! It sounds like a very nice idea. Very original and pretty darn cool...Here's to a successful completion. I'm sure someone here can help you on this one...

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:13 am

If I'm looking at the correct thing, the steering wheel coil has 12-pin connectors on both sides, but only 3 pins are wired up. On the "car" side, they are:pin 1 (GN/YE) - Hornpin 2 (GN/YE) - Cruisepin 3 (WH/BK) - GroundAre you saying that the socket this connector plugs into only has the three pins, or just that the connector only has the three pins wired?If you have an ohmmeter - check to see if one of the steering wheel control pins on the radio connector is really ground. If so, then you only need 1 wire for the steering controls, since ground is already going through the coil.I've never had the steering wheel apart - is there any way you could coil the extra wire yourself?

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:28 am

no help to you, but can you post a schematic of your controls?

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:32 pm

yea, so its a 12 pin CONNECTOR, but there are only three actual pins sticking out at each side. i was soooo excited to see the empty connections on the connector and sooo depressed to see three pins when i took it off.the two pins on the back of the radio make a 12V connection, so i imagine i could borrow off the groun d and only run one wire through. that occurred to me today.i suppose i could decide to live without the horn or Cruise. i am sure once i make that decision i will need it. WAIT... wouldn't it be possible to MOVE the horn and use that pin? then just relocate a 12V pin to the horn pin and stick a button somewhere? hell couldn't i rig it up to be that lame empty third button on the dash??? what do you think?to answer some other questions:wiring a wire through the clock spring doesn't look like something i am qualified to do. and i didn't have the wheel off. if you take off the two torque star screws on the side, all that does is let you pull the horn/airbag thingy off.my schematic is nothing but a copy of the schematic from the grand prix radio controls. i confirmed the values work except for PLAY and PRESET because i am not adding those functions. the rest work. I will attach, but this is thanks to a post from clubgp.com.i will think about horn relocation... other ideas are welcome. i really want to make this happen. i think its a cool inexpensive mod and am thrilled we can use the stock radio!

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:36 pm

I would thkink that relocating the horn button to be able to add steering wheel radio controls is backwards. The horn is a piece of safety equipment, if you need it in a hurry or emergency situation, you don't want to have to go reaching for it, or searching for it. Seems like there ought to be a better alternative than effectively disabling the horn.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:05 pm

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»I would thkink that relocating the horn button to be able to add steering wheel radio controls is backwards. The horn is a piece of safety equipment, if you need it in a hurry or emergency situation, you don't want to have to go reaching for it, or searching for it. Seems like there ought to be a better alternative than effectively disabling the horn.with the stock horn, I'm sure most people won't want to use it anyway.I'd say get rid of the cruise control before you kill the horn though, as Cruise is more of a convenience thing that most people don't use.

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:46 am

Quote, originally posted by jeffgtx Â»WAIT... wouldn't it be possible to MOVE the horn and use that pin? then just relocate a 12V pin to the horn pin and stick a button somewhere? hell couldn't i rig it up to be that lame empty third button on the dash??? what do you think?If you haven't looked already, there's a ton of plastic behind the unused button below the A/C, so as an advance warning it's kinda hard to use it for anything.The cruise control is also a resistive divider off one pin to ground. If you don't use cruise that much, you could use the cruise pin for your steering radio controls, and then wire some buttons for cruise function on the dash. You could use the blank slots to the left of the steering wheel. (Where the hatch button and coin slot are).This way, you'd have steering wheel controls, and still have cruise control function, just not with the stick on the steering wheel.I would agree that keeping the horn is probably an important safety item - dunno about CA, but in Texas it's needed to pass inspection anyway.If you're interested, I can send you a schematic of the cruise stick; you can figure out the resistance values with an Ohmmeter.EDIT PS - You've sparked my interest in maybe wiring rear-seat radio controls. In the schematic BMP that you posted - which pin does "T1" connect to on the Radio? A6, A7? On the "Battery" side - do you just have it connected to 12v into the radio? Thanks!

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:22 pm

i have never once used a horn in a car. but that doesn't mean i am 100% for disabling it.i also don't like the idea of the dead cruise control stick just sitting there.i have finished soldering the actual module together. it works and all the resistances add up right and check out and all the buttons are functional.now they just need a home. frick.i even thought of trying to do some sort of multiplexing with s serializer and deserializer, but i aint got the smarts for that.to answer questions:i am not sure which pin wants in and which one is out, but you should be able to just wire it up and as long as its getting 12v at the one end, if the radio doesn't respond, go to the next pin. its one or the other. that's how it is in grand ams apparently. only one wire going to the radio. 12v supplied at the wheel.guess i will sleep on it another day and hope somebody stumbles on something.GMJAP:1) please email me the cruice schematic and also do you know a way to remove teh cruise stick off the wheel?joatman-what are you using teh schematic for out of curiousity?

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:29 pm

Quote, originally posted by jeffgtx Â»joatman-what are you using the schematic for out of curiousity?nothing yet, I'm currently working on a more fundamental problem with my car, but now thanks to you, the info is available if I do come up with a use for it. In the Vibe, I don't mind reaching for the radio controls, the manual shifter makes a good wrist rest when messing with it, but the idea of back seat controls got me thinking, you could run a wired remote to pretty much anywhere. Under the hood for when you are working in the engine compartment, a 200' extension for when you are hanging out near the car, would be the first step towards a wireless remote. Lots of possibilities.Those resistor values are precise, you can't buy a "475 ohm" resistor at radioshack, but you can get one spec'ed at 470, with some tolerance. Are those values measured, and that the precision in the values is not necessarily required?

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:11 am

Quote, originally posted by jeffgtx Â»i have never once used a horn in a car. but that doesn't mean i am 100% for disabling it.You are a more patient man than I!!Quote, originally posted by jeffgtx Â»GMJAP:1) please email me the cruice schematic and also do you know a way to remove teh cruise stick off the wheel?I'll email it tonight. I'll also look through the service manual to see if I find anything about removing/replacing the cruise stick.I think it would be quite reasonable to make a remote for the radio using this functionality. I'd also be willing to bet that more functions can be accessed than are in the GP schematic. This is the most interesting thread I've seen in a while!

Mr. Poopypants · Post by **Mr. Poopypants** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:13 am

Yeah, this is interesting. As far as I know, this is the first time someone has attempted this.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:41 am

Quote, originally posted by GMJAP Â»I'd also be willing to bet that more functions can be accessed than are in the GP schematic. I was wondering about that too, that last 6960 resistor is about what th rest of them are combined, maybe there are some intermediate functions that could be inserted in there between AM/FM and PRST. Would be interesting to take a 15K pot, and vary it slowly to see what effect it has on the radio.

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:58 am

Quote, originally posted by jeffgtx Â»i even thought of trying to do some sort of multiplexing with s serializer and deserializer, but i aint got the smarts for that.Thought some more on this today: a possible solution not nearly so complex as that, but similar in function.You could still multiplex with the horn. Have the buttons wired up through the horn wire, but also have the horn switch wired up so it pulls everything to a voltage not seen with just the buttons, like +12v or ground. Then, on the car side of the coil, have a basic comparator from Radio Shack look for that condition. The output would drive a transistor to pull the horn relay to ground and HONK!What is the voltage on the radio pin when no buttons are pressed? If greater than zero, you could have the horn switch pull it to ground when pressed and detect that.If not, I'm sure there's some way you detect a specific voltage for the horn, for example make the horn switch the "PRST" switch. Yeah, it'll change presets, but it seems you don't honk very often anyway Unfortunately I don't have time to take my radio out to investigate it myself at the moment (I'm heading out of the country next week) but some interesting things to find out:1) What is the voltage on the radio pin when no buttons are pressed?2) Does the voltage change with different buttons, ie resistances? (I would expect higher votlages with less resistance)Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»Would be interesting to take a 15K pot, and vary it slowly to see what effect it has on the radio.I thinking the same thing! Adding to my list of stuff to mess with. (My next electrical project is to get the keyless entry to beep the horn, and it's quite involved.)

Raivis · Post by **Raivis** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:41 am

what about fabricating the buttons onto the top of the wheel (where the top spokes meet the ring) that way u would have to take it apart. jsut alil fiberglass

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:51 am

I think the main obstacle to overcome at this point is getting the wires from the buttons, whatever form they take, from the rotating steering wheel to the non-rotating rest of the car, in a way that you still have full motion of the steering wheel without breaking the wires.

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:04 pm

i must say i am really enjoying this camaraderie. never had this over a forum before. pretty neat.ok to tackle the topics of the day:-- YES there are more hidden functions on the radio. i discovered that today by accident. there was one called TRACK SCAN and another one that let me edit the D1 T1 on the changer read out. i was too afraid to mess with it, but it gave me a blinking cursor.-- the resistor values in the schematic are specific, but i have all mine rounder to the nearest +/-30 ohms and it seems to be working just fine, so you don't have to hit it on the dot. 1.2kohms seems to be right on the hairy edge for volume up working.-- i like joatmans wireless remote idea. that should be easy to do with a generic purpose remote tied to my resistor network.-- yes the main problem is getting the wires from the wheel through to the column, so the top isn't much help.GMJAP you are the big winner today. i discussed with a couple engineers at work and they both also mentioned the comparator idea. they gave me some homework, which i will share with you all right now.The pins measure 9.5V across A6 and A7. it drops down to 4.5V with the volume up bottom depressed, 4.9V with volume down, etc etc.what intrigues me about this is that 1) i SWEAR it measured 12v on sunday. 2) that's a pretty big drop. i will verify at work, but that to me means there is a resistor divider inside the radio tied to the input pin.work buddies think we can tie the radio controls and the horn together through the horn wire and then use the comparator/transistor network to keep the 12v signal through to the horn and the rest thru to the radio. other theory is that the button voltage wont be high enough to trigger the horn anyway (5V into a driver amp). that is why i asked for the horn schematic too.another thing, is if we can get the resistor values of the cruise, maybe they just aren't close enough to each other such that they can work on the same line and not interfere at all? dunno. seems like today was a 1 step forward 2 steps back day because now i need two more schematics to just keep going.GMJAP, i hope you have email while out of the country, otherwise I'll sure miss ya!! hahathanks for keeping this moving guys. i really want to get this done, not only for my vibe, but to be able to offer something mod wise to the forum in appreciation for all the good ideas i get here.Jeff

Mr. Poopypants · Post by **Mr. Poopypants** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:06 pm

As much as I hate to put this type of pressure on you jeff, if this whole thing works out and you get this done, you will have to drive cross country to a meet in the east so all of us easterners can see this. It's just the way things go.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:30 pm

Looking at the horn circuit from the matrix manual, the horn wire is normally open, pressing the horn grounds the wire, the wire is connected to the coil of the horn relay.I would probably take the steering wheel off and see if there is a way to connect an extra wire or two through the connector that already carries the airbag and horn signals. But that's just me, I am not able to fabricate a non-embarrasing looking radio control switch module anyway, so adding any circuitry isn't going to be any more of a deterrent for me doing this

ullbergm · Post by **ullbergm** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:14 pm

Quote, originally posted by jeffgtx Â»another option that crossed my mind is to try and go wireless and try and get power from a 12v supply, but i doubt that makes cost sense. i am after all trying to do this rather than pay for a new HU or wheel.FYI... Wireless is actually not that expensive depending on what you need.A basic transmitter (433MHz) is around $3 and the reciever is about the same $3-$4.Add to that two microcontrollers (Atmel AVR's are $3-5 ea) and you should be good to go.To avoid having to program a serial over RF connection you could get some Holtec 4 or 8-bit encoder/decoders to do the work for you. These chips are used in remotes, basically you have 8 wires on the encoder side hooked to a microprocessor or some switches and it also hooks to the TX on the RF chip.The decoder side is the exact oposite, you get 8 wires out that mirror the inputs from the encoder side.Page 10 in this PDF shows some example circuits.Actually, using the encoder/decoder you dont even need the microcontrollers so you'd only be at a cost of around $15.edit: I should be able to make the RF stuff work but im pretty much incompetent when it comes to making a nice enclosure for a project..

Mr. Poopypants · Post by **Mr. Poopypants** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:22 pm

Quote, originally posted by ullbergm Â»FYI... Wireless is actually not that expensive depending on what you need.A basic transmitter (433MHz) is around $3 and the reciever is about the same $3-$4.Add to that two microcontrollers (Atmel AVR's are $3-5 ea) and you should be good to go.To avoid having to program a serial over RF connection you could get some Holtec 4 or 8-bit encoder/decoders to do the work for you. These chips are used in remotes, basically you have 8 wires on the encoder side hooked to a microprocessor or some switches and it also hooks to the TX on the RF chip.The decoder side is the exact oposite, you get 8 wires out that mirror the inputs from the encoder side.Page 10 in this PDF shows some example circuits.Actually, using the encoder/decoder you dont even need the microcontrollers so you'd only be at a cost of around $15.edit: I should be able to make the RF stuff work but im pretty much incompetent when it comes to making a nice enclosure for a project.. Wow, good thing you understand all this stuff, my head hurts after trying to comprehend that.

ullbergm · Post by **ullbergm** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:33 pm

Quote, originally posted by Mr. Poopypants Â»Wow, good thing you understand all this stuff, my head hurts after trying to comprehend that. lol. Probably my bad explanation Basically you have using the encoder/decoder and radio transmitter/receiever chips you will have 4 or 8 wires that mirror eachother on the encoding and decoding side.You can put a push button that activates one of the lines on the transmitter side and put a LED on the matching line on the recieve side and it will light up when you push the button.Then all you do is to replace the led with something cooler (the radio controls in this case) and you should have a working RF remote // M

Mr. Poopypants · Post by **Mr. Poopypants** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:40 pm

Would that require wiring inside the HU? I'm still a bit confused but intrigued.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:05 pm

there would be no need to modify anything internal to the head unit,

Mr. Poopypants · Post by **Mr. Poopypants** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:31 pm

HMMM, I have an aftermarket HU, this stuff wouldn't apply would it?

Jahntassa · Post by **Jahntassa** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:43 pm

Quote, originally posted by Mr. Poopypants Â»HMMM, I have an aftermarket HU, this stuff wouldn't apply would it?Depends on the HU. Most Sonys have a wired-remote plug on the back that's an 1/8" Miniplug. I have a wired remote for those that I could probably test and tell you what it does. I don't know about the others.. But, some aftermarket HU's have steeringwheel mounted IrDA controls that work pretty well.

Mr. Poopypants · Post by **Mr. Poopypants** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:49 pm

Mine is a JVC, it came with a remote, but the little thing always falls under the seats.

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:29 am

Quote, originally posted by jeffgtx Â»iThe pins measure 9.5V across A6 and A7. it drops down to 4.5V with the volume up bottom depressed, 4.9V with volume down, etc etc.From what you posted before, I gather that one of the pins is 12v constant, right? So the other must change voltage depending on the resistance to 12v (determined by button press). To be 9.5v across, it must be about 3.5v to ground. With Volume Up, it'd be about 12-4.5 = 7.5V to ground.You could have the horn either directly connect to +12v, or maybe safer, cut the 1270Ohm in half and put the horn switch in there. Either way, this will pull the radio pin voltage higher than 7.5v which you'd never see with the radio controls.You could run the compatar supply from +12v battery to ground. Use a resistor divider to set the "-" input to about 8.5V, and connect the "+" input to the radio switch/horn output wire that goes to the radio. The comparator output would be tied to the base of a general purpose transistor, with a 3600 Ohm pullup to 12v. The emitter goes to ground, and the collector to the horn relay.1/2 an LM393 comparator would work, as would a 2N2222 or 2N4401 transistor. Check with the engineering types; if they suggest something else, I'd be interested in it! My crappy Paint schematic. This may require some fiddling with the resistor values to get it to work right, but it might be a start.

Attached files

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:12 am

ok, one thing I don't understand. If the horn uses one wire, then it seems like the only thing pressing the horn can do is put a ground on that one wire. It can pick up a ground through the shaft of the steering column. In the circuit diagrams, the output of the resistor/switch assembly goes through the "wheel coil", but how does the +12V BATT get to the resistor/switch assembly? This thing should be independent of the airbag circuit, which are the other two wires going through the wheel coil. So, maybe you need to turn the circuit upside down, modify it to connect the one wire through resistors to ground instead of to +12V.

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:33 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»ok, one thing I don't understand. If the horn uses one wire, then it seems like the only thing pressing the horn can do is put a ground on that one wire. It can pick up a ground through the shaft of the steering column. In the circuit diagrams, the output of the resistor/switch assembly goes through the "wheel coil", but how does the +12V BATT get to the resistor/switch assembly? This thing should be independent of the airbag circuit, which are the other two wires going through the wheel coil. So, maybe you need to turn the circuit upside down, modify it to connect the one wire through resistors to ground instead of to +12V. A good point. He seems to have a 12v source; I assume it's from the airbag. Unfortunately, the radio buttons wouldn't work with the resistors grounded, so any way it gets done it needs 12V. Probably not a great idea to pull 12v off the airbag as you noted, though.

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:47 am

NO... i am not tinkering at all with the airbag. that is off limits.i think i may be confusing people with my inccorect references to 12v and ground on some occasions. let me digest these new schematics and post later tonight.also keep in mind i dont think we cans ay for certain that the radio wont respons to other voltages not covered in teh schmetic because like i said, there does seem to be some hidden functions.GMJAP- you are going to drive this company to bankrupcy. i alreayd invested $1 in 1.2k resistors and now you want me to spend another $1 on 635 resistors!?!? thats 100% over budget! as usual, thanks for the help/comments. the fun level is still higher than the frustration level.

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:54 am

GMJPAwhat the the steering wheel side equivalent of this that you posted for the three wires?pin 1 (GN/YE) - Hornpin 2 (GN/YE) - Cruisepin 3 (WH/BK) - Ground

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:32 am

How about something like this, resistor values not specified because I have no idea what they ought to be.edit - had the +/- reversed, swapped now

Attached files

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:41 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»How about something like this, resistor values not specified because I have no idea what they ought to be.Unfortunately, that wouldn't work. Which is too bad, because it would simplify everything.The radio detects buttons by the seeing the appropriate resistance to 12v. Brainstorming never hurts, though.I think the kicker here might be that two wires are going to be needed to do the SWC, +12v and the Radio pin (or A6 & A7). Sorry to bust your budget like that, Jeff. What can I say? I'm such a spendthrift. No respect for budgets!

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:12 am

PS - You could try to see if you could run two 30ga wires (like wire-wrap wire) through the steering column into the wheel. They should be able to handle the amount of twisting a wheel does, just leave plenty of slack. They'll definitely handle the voltage/current.It might turn out to be the easiest solution.

tnpartsguy · Post by **tnpartsguy** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:16 am

Ideal #1; the connectors to go into the plug should be available from a GM dealer, MITool Guy, jump in here, as that is a KM part.Ideal #2; mount the radio control buttons on top of the steering column covers, before the steering wheel.Neat Project, I'll have to watch to see how it turns out

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:48 am

Quote, originally posted by jeffgtx Â»GMJPAwhat the the steering wheel side equivalent of this that you posted for the three wires?pin 1 (GN/YE) - Hornpin 2 (GN/YE) - Cruisepin 3 (WH/BK) - Groundpin 1 (WH) - Hornpin 2 (RD) - Cruisepin 3 (WH) - Ground

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:59 am

the problem isn't the plug, its what it plugs into, its a 3 pin male prong. the other 9 pins are not there and i have to assume nothing through the clockspring either.horn hookup is now not an option. talked to a trusted eng friend at work and showed him teh horn shcmetic (thanks GMJAP youre the best). the horn doesn get connected to the ground that the cruise does. its a metal ground (assume column to the chasis). the cruise goes to that ground because it need s quiet ground. the horn doesn't care about a little noise in teh system. without knowing the specs of the horn relay, we are assuming that that thing has enough current that its going to overwhelm the steering wheel controls and the radio will never see anything.cruise is off limits because i don't want to interfere and potentitally hit ACCEL in neutral.so whats next you ask? is the project dead ? you wonder to yourself as a tear comes to your eye...well let me tell you something.there comes a time in a persons life where they come to a line in the ground. and on one side, is genvibe boyhood. and crossing that line takes you to genvibe manhood (or genvibe doghood). what keeps you from crossing that line? oh it could be anything really. it could be the pricetag of the GM supercharger. it could be the fear of drilling the holes neccesary to mount the rear wing kit your self.... or it could be a clockspring assembly. well there comes a day where the person has to choose. do i want to be a genvibe boy and read about other cool mods and give up on my own? or do i want to be like those that blaze the trail that others follow... the trail of cool low cost mods for a cool low cost car.well that day is fastly approaching for this genvibe boy...that day...... is sunday april 10th...stay tuned (or post clockspring how tos )(note: april 10th assumes that jeff and his wife survive their hot air balloon ride wedding gift in one piece on april 9th. no guarentee is expressed or implied otherwise!)

cdFxer · Post by **cdFxer** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:21 pm

Whoa, get busy in the real world and I miss cool stuff like this!Here is another 'solution'. If I understand what you want to do, you have three wires to deal with-1 gnd, 1 horn, and one for the cruise. Also including the cruise you need 11-13 functions? Ok, use the existing wiring for a +12V lead, the other for a data lead, and keep the gnd. For easy programming you could use one of the many BASIC programmable microcontrollers out there, say like the BASIC STAMP series. Several of these have D to A and A to D capabilities, as well as communications functions. Setup one uC in the steering wheel for D to A, one input (bit) for each of your inputs (vol up/down, cruise set, etc etc), then setup the other one in the dash to handle the D to A and tie the voltages back into the cruise, radio, and horn circuit. Atmel and Dallas Semiconductor have several items that would do exactly what you want, with a minimum of wiring or complicated PCB's. Look into the Dallas Semi 1-Wire (their brand name) stuff - they can ship data and power down one lead. You may not even have to use the cruise wire (simplify things even further!) with those.

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:19 am

Quote, originally posted by cdFxer Â»Several of these have D to A and A to D capabilities, as well as communications functions. Setup one uC in the steering wheel for D to A, one input (bit) for each of your inputs (vol up/down, cruise set, etc etc), then setup the other one in the dash to handle the D to A and tie the voltages back into the cruise, radio, and horn circuit. The cruise and stering controls work off current, not voltage, so an A-D, D-A wouldn't be practical. For the cruise, if you AD different resistors to ground, you'd always get - ground! For the SWC, different AD's of different resistances to 12v would all give you - 12V! For that kinda complication anyway, one might as well do IR and not mess with the wiring. I think trying to run extra wires won't be more work than all that, though...Also Jeff - I htink there's enough room in the gap between the column trim and the wheel trim (at the back of the wheel, where is turns) to roll-your-own coil spring without messing with the actual coil.I turned my wheel all the way to the left, wrapped some wire counter-clockwise in there about 6 times so it was fairly tight, and affixed one end to the column and one to the wheel. I then could turn the wheel all the way right, and the wire still stayed hidden, even as the coils loosened up.Let us know how things turn out!

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:49 pm

well theres good news and theres bad news.the good news is that i survived the balloon ride and dont have to do that ever again.the bad news is that my Radio control resistor board failed pre-install inspection. something happened and there was a short and it got worse the more i tried to fix it so i had to go into work and use the lab and build another one, this time i used an oversize breadboard. i got to aggressive with the first one trying to keep it small.so, that cost me most of daylight.i can, however, officially announce tha my vibe is "steering wheel control ready"! the wiring is hooked up to the back of the radio, and run down the dash and up the column where it is waiting. i was also able to repeatedly control the radio with teh new board.i had the steering wheel apart to the center nut to take it off. I tried your idea GMJAP but either i was doing something wrong or had it TOO far back on the colum because i couldnt go back right ever without it ttrying to pull the wire back out of the wheel. i also got oncofrtable once it started to get around where the airbag plug is.so i have two next steps:1) i am going to try and call NUMMI. anytime i have ever toured a pontiac plant, there have always been 2-3 engineers who loved to talk about the cars and what else to do with them. i know its technically not a pontiac plant, but there has got to be someone there who would want to troubleshoot with me.2) learn more about clockspring disaaembly. one thing that stopped me besides dusk was, yea big deal i got it apart, how am i going to get the wires out of it with STILL only three pins. I need a same size clockspring with more pins.sorry about the lack of significant progress.

cdFxer · Post by **cdFxer** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:37 pm

You can use AD/DA converters for this using differing methods of biasing and/or buffer amps, (think of an inverted output) and say, a transistoror fet to 'drop' the current through. The whole thing could fit on a board the size of a matchbook. I regularly have to interface current loop valves, sensors, etc to voltage relative outputs-and vice versa. It can be done and once you think about the circuitry, its not as difficult as it first appears. See?

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:26 am

Quote, originally posted by cdFxer Â» You can use AD/DA converters for this using differing methods of biasing and/or buffer amps, (think of an inverted output) and say, a transistoror fet to 'drop' the current through. The whole thing could fit on a board the size of a matchbook. I regularly have to interface current loop valves, sensors, etc to voltage relative outputs-and vice versa. It can be done and once you think about the circuitry, its not as difficult as it first appears. See? Okay I admit you are correct it CAN be done, but gets quite complicated. That's getting into medium-duty analog engineering. (Which I've seen pose a challenge to many degreed & practicing engineers!)It'd be easier to hook buttons to controller IO pins and on the other side use enhancement-mode MOSFETs to switch in the resistances, I think. But in any case, it seems Jeff's got things largely under control.Quote, originally posted by jeffgtx Â» had the steering wheel apart to the center nut to take it off. I tried your idea GMJAP but either i was doing something wrong or had it TOO far back on the colum because i couldnt go back right ever without it ttrying to pull the wire back out of the wheel. i also got oncofrtable once it started to get around where the airbag plug is.Hmmm - is the wire getting caught in something? Maybe try leaving a bit of slack when you wind it? (The coil should be nearly tight when you turn the wheel all the way left, and loosen up, 'unwind', as you turn back to the center and then right. Only the ends should be affixed to anything.)You might also consider getting small plastic tubing (not rubbery, you want it to slide around freely) that's somewhat stiff, but can still be wrapped around the column, to put the wires in. That is if NUMMI doesn't work out. That would be awesome! Good luck calling them.

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:09 am

what guage wire did you use when you did this?and keep in mind that i am running 2 wires now, one from and one to the radio in order not interefere at all with cruise.

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:48 am

I used 30ga. If you do that, I'd really recommend the plastic - lots of places something that thin can get snagged up. However, something like 22ga might actually be easier to work with.Also just to be clear - I'm thinking the wires come out of a small hole in the column trim that's part of the dash, right in or by the gap where the wheel turns. Then they wrap around the metal of the actual column that you can see in the gap between the steering wheel plastic and the column dash plastic. Then they go into a small hole on the steering wheel trim by the gap, or to your controls, however it works best for you.Aargh. I hate trying to describe stuff like this in text.So where the wires exit the column dash trim always stays in the same place. Where they enter the wheel rotates around the metal of the steering column. Thus, when you turn the wheel one way, it wraps the wire around the metal column. When you turn the other way, it 'unwraps' the wire.Except the wheel only turns about 1.7 turns or so each way from center. So when the wheel is turned all the way left, you have the wire wrapped 6 times or more ("coiled") almost tight around the column in the same direction.. Then as you turn back to center and right, it moves the wheel end of the wire in the unwrapping direction. The idea is this has the effect of increasing the diameter of your wire coil as the same length of wire is now only wrapped 3 times around the wheel by the time you turn hard right. If you have enough turns in the coil, it won't expand to the point where it pops out of the gap and can be seen.Hope that's a decent description, and that you find it workable. I'd try to set something up and take pictures, but it'd have to wait till I get back in a couple weeks.Of course, if you feel there's any chance this might ever interfere with your steering, and thus be a safety issue, don't do it.

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GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:04 am

This is just here for the attachment!

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cdFxer · Post by **cdFxer** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:02 pm

"(Which I've seen pose a challenge to many degreed & practicing engineers!)"Oh my! I hope you are kidding...errr...never mind. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a fresh out of school EE a few months ago. Was arguing with me about how many conductors were actually used in Cat5 ethernet cables-he insists that it is 5... sigh... I work with several ME's and EE's who look at what I do as FM. I was just posing the above as another solution, looks like y'all have the wire thing figured out already.

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:24 am

i work for an analog eng compnay and i know enought not to get into the digital vs analog debate!i wouldnt go so far as to say we have the whole wired thing figured out... i like the wireless idea, but dont think there is enough room and actually dont have the time to layout that board.as much as i like GMJAPs gap picture (isn;t it great), i still am not confortable with the wrap around. it didnt go so well for me in rpactice and that worries me for long durability.still plugging away on the low for items 1 and 2 in the meantime.what i really need is clockspring datasheet to find out whihc ones are similar.wheres ragingfish with his all knowling parts list when you need him?

jeffgtx · Post by **jeffgtx** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:36 am

NEW IDEA NEW IDEA NEW IDEA NEW IDEA_________________________________________i spent a fair bit of time yesterday closely examining as many close up photos as i could of varios toyota models and the steering wheels they use. its fairly obvious to tell which cars use a wheel similar or the same as the vibe/matrix. the airbag moduel shape is fairly unique i think. I also checked Scion int eh hopes the tc or whatever it is called offers controls. it does not.then i came across the MR2, which apparently offers a sequencial manual with steering wheel mounted up down shifters. i have to see one up close, but i am pretty certain that its only three buttons, so i doubt using the wheel work.then as i was falling asleep m mind remembered that getting a new wheel doesn;t solve the problem. the problem is the clockspring. solve the problem and then it hit me.if the MR2 has a and airbag horn, cruise and sequencial manual controls into the wheel... it MUSt have a clockspring with more than three pins (hopefully 5) right? and therefore, the mr2 clockspring is what i am looking for.anybody have insight into an MR2? time for me to find the mr2 forums and make a request.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:16 am

in http://forums.genvibe.com/zero...60666, johnsoax posted a delphi radio pin out, and the remote control pin A7 you are using is labelled as "RUI1". Pin B7 is labelled UI2. I wonder what RUI means, and what the difference is between RUI1 and RUI2?