Hybrids are not what they claim!

[michaelgt]

Defroster, Air-Conditioning Put Dent In Hybrids' MileageDetroit Free PressFebruary 3, 2005By Mark PhelanThere's a loophole in how most hybrid gasoline-electric vehicles work, and countless gallons of gasoline are draining out of it. Running the front defroster increases their fuel consumption drastically, as I discovered while driving three of them during Detroit's typically cold winter. Setting the air-conditioning on maximum cool has the same effect, so the problem is not limited to northern regions. None of the automakers admits to knowing how much this increases the hybrids' fuel consumption, but one estimate is that drivers use the defroster or max the air conditioner 10 percent of the time behind the wheel each year. The Ford Escape SUV, Honda Accord and Toyota Prius hybrids all fell far short of the fuel economy figures the companies advertise. Hybrids, which use electric motors to supplement their gasoline engines, have won wide acclaim for the extremely high mileage they achieve in tests by the Environmental Protection Agency. According to the EPA, the Prius, the best-selling hybrid, gets 60 miles per gallon in city driving and 51 m.p.g. on the highway. The Escape is rated at 36 and 31, the Accord 29 and 37. The hybrids fell as much as 40 percent below the EPA mileage figures for combined city and highway driving during my recent test, which covered a mix of Detroit-area roads. "This is clearly a drawback," said Joe Phillippi, principal of AutoTrends Consulting, a New Jersey firm. "The vast majority of the country is affected." The Escape, the largest of the three vehicles, did fairly well, giving me 21.6 m.p.g. The Accord, which Honda promotes both for its fuel efficiency and the added performance of its electric motor, got 20.4 m.p.g. My colleague Tony Swan averaged just over 27 m.p.g. using the defroster only occasionally in the Accord hybrid. His review runs in today's Motor City section. The Prius' fuel economy suffered the most, but particularly cold and slippery weather conditions certainly contributed to its 22.8 m.p.g. A sophisticated feature that shuts the gasoline engine off when it's not needed is one of the key reasons the vehicles score so well with the EPA, but the Escape, Accord and Civic all lose that ability when the front defroster is on. I have tested the Civic before but did not drive it for this evaluation. Nobody really knows how much of the time drivers use the front defroster or max AC. The best guess comes from Ford, which has 30-year-old research that says it's about 10 percent of the time for all drivers in the United States. The Prius can operate its front defroster when the gasoline engine is off, but cold weather keeps the engine from shutting down as often and for as long as it does when the defroster is not engaged. All three vehicles I drove probably got somewhat better fuel economy in my test than if I'd been driving conventional models, but this is just the latest example of hybrids falling short of the hype that surrounds them. Even some very enthusiastic hybrid owners have become frustrated by the cars' failure to delivery fuel economy matching the EPA numbers. "All I want is a damn car that lives up to its promise and that won't make my wife repeatedly tell me I'm a big fool," Civic hybrid owner Pete Blackshaw wrote in his online blog, http://www.hybridbuzz.blogspot.com. Blackshaw of Cincinnati likes his car but writes that he's still nearly 15 m.p.g. below the advertised mileage. "All in all, despite Honda's good intentions, very disappointing." Salespeople I talked to who specialize in hybrids at Detroit-area Ford, Honda and Toyota dealerships were either unaware of or misinformed about how using the defroster and air-conditioning affects fuel economy. "Hybrids are never going to hit the EPA numbers," said Jim Hall, vice president for industry analysis at consultant AutoPacific. "It doesn't surprise me. I think it's a nonissue, though," since most people get worse fuel economy than the EPA mileage posted alongside the price on every car's window sticker. A federal regulation sets standards for how quickly the front defroster must be able to clear ice from a windshield, said Tom Watson, the Ford engineer who developed the Escape hybrid's powertrain. The front defroster uses fluid from the engine to heat air in cold temperatures and runs the air conditioner to clear the windshield on cool, clammy days. Losing the engine's stop-start ability "does make for a reduction in fuel economy," he said. The owners of hybrid cars change their driving habits to increase fuel economy, said Ron Cogan, editor and publisher of the Green Car Journal, a San Luis Obispo, Calif.-based magazine specializing in alternative fueled vehicles. "If your goal in getting a hybrid is maximum fuel economy, you will learn over time the idiosyncrasies of the car and the technology," he said. Another idiosyncrasy affected the Prius I drove. Not only did the engine shut down very infrequently, but it often stopped and started several times during a single stoplight. Under ideal circumstances, the engine shuts down when the car comes to a stop and doesn't start again until you depress the accelerator. Despite that, the Prius' ability to walk and chew gum while other hybrids stumble demonstrates that "Toyota's not just on the cutting edge of this technology, they're sharpening it," said Rich Homan, executive editor of the auto Web site Inside Line. Surprisingly, the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra so-called mild hybrid pickups, which have been criticized as less technically sophisticated than the other hybrids, can go into engine-shutdown mode with the front defrost or maximum air-conditioning engaged, like the Prius can. "A lot of people put a lot of thought into coming up with our control strategies," said Connie Scarpelli, GM marketing manager for alternate fuel vehicles. "We're very proud of what they accomplished."

[GMJAP]

Interesting article.Pretty much every car is significantly below the EPA numbers, though, as most people drive. There was some news a while back too about how the EPA test format causes hybrid numbers to be even more overblown, too.This article seems to kinda blow the whole defroster thing out of proportion, though. Let's assume the car normally gets 40mpg, but only 20mpg when the defroster's on. The article says research shows the defroster on "about 10 percent of the time for all drivers in the United States."(10% * 20) + (90% * 40) = 38mpgDoesn't seem like a huge, "I was a fool for buying one", "hybrids aren't what they claim!" mileage dent to me.In fact, a lot of people have complained on genvibe about getting a lot less than the Vibe's EPA numbers. So all this sounds same-old-same-old, EPA doesn't reflect real driving, regardless of engine tech.

[ToolGuy]

Very interesting... Look for other alternatives like more diesels. There will be a diesel Jeep Liberty this year in the states and Canada and later in the year a diesel Chrysler minivan for Canada only, both with 2.8L engines.

[sylvainber]

a friend of mine in las vegas drives a civic hybrid. it avgs about 37mpg with the A/C running most of the time at a mid setting (almost independent of city/highway)a regular civic would get 32-35 (more variable) in similar conditions. witht the extra sticker (shock...) of the hybrid, it would take many yrs to recoup that $$.sylvain

[GMJAP]

Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »a friend of mine in las vegas drives a civic hybrid. it avgs about 37mpg with the A/C running most of the time at a mid setting (almost independent of city/highway)a regular civic would get 32-35 (more variable) in similar conditions. witht the extra sticker (shock...) of the hybrid, it would take many yrs to recoup that $$.sylvainI consider a Prius when I got my Vibe, along with a Corolla. I figured for a similarly equipped Prius/Corolla, I would have to drive almost 200,000 miles to make up the MSRP difference in gas costs, at $2 a gallon. By 100k even, it's also likely the Prius would need a $$$$ battery replacement.Also, the latest issue of R&T, in the car test summary, shows the Prius at 40mpg in their driving. They usually get numbers way below EPA on test results for cars. I don't think there was any other vehicle in the summary that had much more than 30mpg.Thus, I don't believe it's fiction that hybrids deliver significant mileage improvements. However, whether that justifies the price premium is, I think, a valid argument.

[ragingfish]

The Prius does come with a 100kmile warranty on the battery...it's likely to get replaced before the warranty expires...That being said, not everyone buys hybrids to save their money. They also buy them to help ease the impact on the environment! 38mpg is still a very respectible mileage...While I don't religiously check my mpg ratings at each fill, I do it periodically, and but only once or twice have I hit 30 or above. Granted, I'm a lead foot...and I have the intake...the two combined pretty much end any hopes of respectable mileages...If I had the money, I'd certainly consider a Prius...not only for my own personal savings (I would probably make it a game to see how gentle I could be in order to gain the most economy out of it), but also because I would feel at least SOMEWHAT less guilty about emissions...

[Mr. Poopypants]

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »While I don't religiously check my mpg ratings at each fill, I do it periodically, and but only once or twice have I hit 30 or above. Granted, I'm a lead foot...and I have the intake...the two combined pretty much end any hopes of respectable mileages...I actually noticed better mileage after I got past that initial "PUNCH IT TO HEAR THE SOUND OF THE INTAKE"

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by Mr. Poopypants »I actually noticed better mileage after I got past that initial "PUNCH IT TO HEAR THE SOUND OF THE INTAKE"LOL!I don't punch it to hear the intake...I punch it to pass the slow-(removed) biznitches that are around here...Honestly, I can't hear the intake from inside the car once I get moving...

[Mr. Poopypants]

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »LOL!I don't punch it to hear the intake...I punch it to pass the slow-(removed) biznitches that are around here...Honestly, I can't hear the intake from inside the car once I get moving...Oh, don't get me wrong, I am a leadfoot too, but I punched it going from stopsign to stopsign 100 ft apart before.

[ColonelPanic]

Man, I'd love to get my hands on a Prius! Seriously considered one, but I'm not sure it's the best car for me. I like all the gizmos and gadgets that thing has, plus the whole environmental aspect... But, I can't spend that kind of money on one. And with 20,000+ miles a year that I drive, I'd be afraid of it in the long-term.