CEL is on again

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:12 am

So I had my car in at the dealer a month ago for a CEL. Diagnonsis: fuel tank pressure sensor has calved. Total cost for diagnosis and repair $256 CDN.Two days ago, the CEL comes on again. The gas cap is tight. So I went to PartSource to investigate an OBD2 scanner (trying to save myself the $106 diagnostic charge). It is $250 + taxes, and they won't take it back once I buy it!!!I am so pissed off with this car. It has 118,000 km on it, so it's past warranty, and it's looking like it's going to nickle and dime me to death. It's too high mileage to trade off and not get screwed over.Any suggestions?

ebslopp · Post by **ebslopp** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:21 am

Quote, originally posted by pmh013 Â»So I had my car in at the dealer a month ago for a CEL. Diagnonsis: fuel tank pressure sensor has calved. Total cost for diagnosis and repair $256 CDN.Two days ago, the CEL comes on again. The gas cap is tight. So I went to PartSource to investigate an OBD2 scanner (trying to save myself the $106 diagnostic charge). It is $250 + taxes, and they won't take it back once I buy it!!!I am so pissed off with this car. It has 118,000 km on it, so it's past warranty, and it's looking like it's going to nickle and dime me to death. It's too high mileage to trade off and not get screwed over.Any suggestions?does the service center that "fixed" it last time provide a warranty for their work? If so, I would suggest you take it there.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:24 am

Yes, they do, but how do I know that it's not going to be some other electronic component that has failed this time? The chances that it's the same part the second time are pretty low, I think.

Jahntassa · Post by **Jahntassa** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:40 am

I don't know about in Canada, but I think AutoZone down here will tell you what codes the CEL is throwing, though they won't diagnose it..

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:30 am

Watch for sales at Canadian Tire. I got my OBDII for $150.00 Can. I use it on my vehicles and many friends cars as well. It is a great feeling to read the codes, look them up in the manual and know exactly what is wrong in seconds. Many times you can buy the parts and fix it yourself. It has paid for itself many times over.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:38 am

If you can get the code from someone with a scanner, I can tell you what it means. There are several codes and several causes that can turn on that engine light when it comes to an emissions code. Now they said it was a fuel pressure sensor? (P0446 code I think?) but did they do a smoke pressure test to make sure even through the cap is tight, it doesn't have a bad seal? or that maybe a vent valve is sticking open? (P0441 code I think)I know those are the codes for the two concerns, just not remembering at this hour which is which. P0440 is a general emissions leak detected code.

ebslopp · Post by **ebslopp** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:09 am

Quote, originally posted by pmh013 Â»Yes, they do, but how do I know that it's not going to be some other electronic component that has failed this time? The chances that it's the same part the second time are pretty low, I think.It's worth bringing it in to find out. If it's something else, tell them you'll have to wait to have it fixed some other time. Although, it's most likely the same thing.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:38 pm

I am trying to get my hands on a scanner ... owned by me or otherwise.There's a pretty popular J-body club in Regina ... perhaps I can make a friend there.I'll ask around, and see what I can find. For $175, I might just pony up the dough, especially if it's compatible with the Jetta too.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:11 am

If you need any info regarding the code you get, let me know

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:23 am

I bought a scanner today...Primary code is P0446 (which is the code I got from the dealership last time).It is also showing codes P0441, P0440 (pending), P0441 (pending), P0446 (pending).So, it is looking like whatever was wrong with it last time, they didn't fix it.Any thoughts ... I'll be back home in a couple of hours. I'm planning to take it in to the dealership on Monday (I know better than to try and get any work done of a Friday!!).

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:02 am

Yup, general emmissions code (P0440) with a fuel pressure sensor code (P0446) and vent(purge) Valve (P0441)I'd say they did not fix anything last time.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:37 am

ARGH!!! I am SO going in there on Monday to rip them a new (removed) hole!!!I wish I had asked for the old part back. I intended to (to prevent this sort of thing), but it completely slipped my mind when I picked up the car. I will be sure to write down that I want the part back when I go in Monday am.Thanks a million for that info. Are those codes out of the service manual? In the book that came with the scanner, it says:P0440 = Evaporative Emission Control System MalfunctionP0441 = Evaporative Emission Control System Incorrect Purge FlowP0446 = Evaporative Emission Control System Vent Control Circuit Malfunction

ebslopp · Post by **ebslopp** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:05 am

I hate to be the one who says I told you so....

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:21 pm

Those codes are the same codes on every GM vehicle for those concerns. the Tech II system scanners we use have descriptions programmed in them but those are the correct ones your book says. Yup right out of the service manual and GM info on the technical webpage.

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:36 pm

hmm... so those scanners work pretty well then? maybe in the future i'll have to get one. afterall, my family has ALL gm vehicles. might be able to talk them into getting one and then i can just use theirs.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:00 pm

I got this one because it was on sale -- 30% off. For $175 ($200 including tax), I now have the peace of mind that comes with knowing whether or not the garage is blowing smoke up my (removed).Plus, my fiance's Jetta uses the same one ... and it's going to start spouting CEL's soon. It's a 1997 diesel, and getting to be high mileage. It's been mostly mechanical fixes in the last year, but the electronics are starting to freak out.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:10 pm

Quote, originally posted by pmh013 Â»Are those codes out of the service manual? In the book that came with the scanner, it says:P0440 = Evaporative Emission Control System MalfunctionP0441 = Evaporative Emission Control System Incorrect Purge FlowP0446 = Evaporative Emission Control System Vent Control Circuit MalfunctionThe service manual lists the CEL codes and their cause, as well as a troubleshooting/correction procedure. Also, a link to CEL codes from the Matrix service manual in http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=10094you've had two catalytic converters go bad, and now some more trouble with the emissions control system twice, I wonder if it's possible that your car has something obscure wrong,that causes symptoms, but something elusive that doesn't throw a CEL directly.

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:08 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the emissions system covered under an independent warranty that is longer than the standard 3/36?

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:10 am

not any of the vent valves, purge or fuel pressure sensors. Read your owners manual, it says which ones are. Big one is the Coverter.

MoonDogg · Post by **MoonDogg** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:11 am

May I recomend this http://www.auterraweb.com/ This is what I have... Its a little more expensive.. but works on all OBDII cars which is 96+ and it also has a dyno feature.. works very well I have definatly gotten my money of it.. you can also find it on EBAY for a little cheaper... thats were i got mine... It also gives read outs of most all your sensors etc.. and give realtime MPG

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:59 am

Grasping at straws here, not that knowledgable about the inner workings of all this, but... They seem to have made some changes to the evap system for 2005. I have noticed the tag on the shifter regarding whatever pump runs after the ignition is switched off... I'm not sure what all changed, maybe some of the redesigned bits and pieces could help with your problems...I wonder if they could implement some of the '05 changes into your car... Probably not, but you never know. Good luck to you, sounds frustrating. Hang in there!

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:21 am

Car is currently at the dealership. I told the SA (service advisor) that "I had the car in a month ago because of a check engine light. The light is back on, and it's the same code." He looks up at me from his keyboard, and asks, "You got the code read?" "Yes, I bought a scanner.""Oh. Can you leave it (the car) with me for this afternoon?""Yes." "Do you need a ride somewhere?""No.""Ok, sign here."And that was that, about 11:30 this morning. The car was still sitting in the lot at 12:30 when I left the restaurant next door after having lunch. I don't expect to hear back from the until about 4:30 or 5 pm, which means they've got an hour and a half. We'll see what they say today!

champcaracing · Post by **champcaracing** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:58 am

bet its gonna be a CCV valve (closed canister valve) by the air box......

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:43 am

Official diagnosis: the fuel tank pressure solenoid has now failed.The dealership wants $140 for this part, plus another $40 labour to replace it. I told them not to bother, because I seem to be throwing good money after bad on this car. I did manage to get them to waive the ($107) diagnostic fee this time. So, I will investigate other avenues of procuring this part and installing it myself. If it turns out I can't get it for any less, then I guess I have to take it back there again, and give them more money.I'm going to do some research and see if I can come up with a part number on this part; maybe I can buy it cheaper from Toyota? Or on-line?

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:49 am

where's part number master ragingfish when you need him? would definitely be worth calling toyota for a price on the part

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:04 am

So, do you think that the Toyota part "Fuel Pressure Regulator" (23280-22010) is what Pontiac calls the "fuel tank pressure solenoid"? Of course, they didn't give me a part number because I didn't order it from them, so I'm sorta shooting in the dark here.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:40 am

The fuel pressure regulator is a little cylindrical relief valve stuck on the bottom of the fuel pump assembly. Replacing that requires removing the rear seat, removing the fuel pump assembly, replacing the regulator and reassembling everything. THe part doesn't look like it should cost $140 and the labour looks like it would cost more than $40. What does $40 labour buy, one hour or two?Looked up the diagnostic procedure for the primary code P0446, deals mostly with the evaporative emission control stuff. One of many possible causes for a P0446 is a bad "Evaporative Emmission (EVAP) Pressure Switching Solenoid"The solenoid is mounted on the EVAP canister (the black box under the car by/behind/inside the rear driver's side wheel well) Procedure for replacing the solenoid looks easier than yanking seats and pulling the fuel pump. An electromechanical pressure solenoid valve solenoid is likely more complicated than the passive mechanical relief fuel pressure valve, so it might cost $140 from a dealer, and the labour looks more reasonable for $40. One thing to be aware of, the service manual has this notice at the top of the solenoid replacement procedure (page 6-1035:Quote Â»Notice: The EVAP canister may have released carbonparticles which caused this part to fail and maycause damage to other components. Check the EVAPcanister for loose carbon before returning the vehicleto serviceIf it was the EVAP pressure switching solenoid, hopefully the dealer checked your EVAP canister for "loose carbon"So, my guess is that the toyota fuel pressure regulator is a different item from what the dealer siad was a failed fuel tank pressure solenoid, but maybe you can call the Pontiac dealer back and get a clarification and a part number for the item that they feel is failed.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:33 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â» What does $40 labour buy, one hour or two?Ha ha ha ha!!! That's a half hour of labour! The rate is $82.50 per hour. See now why I'm pissed off?I wonder if they had that assembly apart 3 weeks ago, shook loose some carbon, and now went and plugged my solenoid valve with it?I'll phone the dealership tomorrow and ask him to fax or email me the quote, that way I'll have the part #.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:06 am

Well at least they waved the diag charge.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:03 am

OK, I got the part number: 88971961 (pressure control solenoid valve). I'm not having any luck finding it in the Matrix parts list. http://www.genvibe.com/images/...g.pdf Anybody who can figure out the Toyota equivalent part will be my hero.

kep427 · Post by **kep427** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:15 am

Hey pmh. If you do a search you will see that quite a few of us have had CEL problems.Mine developed at 1700 mi. The dealer couldn't figure out why it went off and listed the same codes you listed:P0441, P0440 (pending), P0441 (pending), P0446 (pending).All they did was reset the computer. Light came back on again at about 3500 miles. Took it to a different dealer. Same results.Filed a complaint with GM customer service and with the NHTSA. Got a call back a short time later; they figured out the reason. They said it was a problem with a hose on the evap canister. Problem fixed with new hose.Problem hasn't returned with 7500 miles.Hope this helps.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:23 am

Thanks kep!The quote I got on this last part (the Pressure Control Solenoid Valve) says that the evap system is not able to pull vacuum when commanding the purge solenoid on. The fuel tank pressure control solenoid is not working, as a result, the evap system is not able to operate as designed and has set multiple codes.A hose sounds like an easy fix, but I'd hate to replace yet another part only to have the CEL come back again ... which is why I want to find out the Toyota part number, and get a quote from them for the repair. If it's close, I'll go there anyway, just because I think they know these systems better than the GM techs do ... they just don't have the volume of Vibes that the US dealers see.

kep427 · Post by **kep427** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:27 am

Good luck.Let me know if you want me to call my dealer for more specs on what they actually did.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:32 am

So, I was fully prepared today to bite the bullet, and have Pontiac order in the $140 part.Then I got in my car. The CEL is off.(removed)?? It's been on for 3 weeks straight, and all of a sudden it just turns off? Especially considering I've got this supposedly defective part.I drove the car all the way into the city (a 105 km or 65 mi trip) and back again ... still no light. I'm going out to the garage now to hook up the code reader again, and see if I can make any sense out of this.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:34 am

well, the service manual says that the CEL will go out "on the tird consecutive trip cycle during which the diagnostic has been run and the fault condition is no longer present" and the code will be deleted "after 40 consecutive warm up cycles have occurred without a fault"So, since the CEL went out, it must have fixed itself "three trip cycles" ago, whatever that means, but you can probably still read the codes with your scanner.Maybe a loose connection/hose got bumped back into place or something. Have you messed around the canister at all, say 3+ trip cycles ago?

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:03 pm

I haven't touched the canister. I don't even know where it is.I went out & read the codes. It came up with P0446 & P0440 but they were neither causing a CEL (as indicated on my scanner as "MIL"), nor were they about to cause a CEL (as indicated on my scanner as "Pending"). So, I erased the codes, and ran the scan again. Came back clean.I think I'll just sit & wait, and take some satisfaction in the fact that I may have just saved myself $200 + taxes (at least for now).My theory is this: when they were messing around doing the diagnostic for the pressure sensor last time, they knocked loose some carbon that got stuck in the solenoid valve. Enough carbon to make it stick open or closed, but not completely fail. On my weekend camping trip, my car spent 3 nights outside in the forest, compared to its usual home of inside my warm, dry garage. The change in atmosphere was enough to dislodge the carbon from the solenoid, because I drove home from the lake, and the light was still on, but this morning when my fiance moved my car (to get his out of the garage), the CEL didn't come on, and it didn't come on when I took it out of the garage a few hours later.

CyBeRjUnKiE · Post by **CyBeRjUnKiE** » Sat May 07, 2005 2:39 am

Sorry if this is a very ignorant question, but Can anyone tell me where I plug in the OBD II Code Reader? I'm thinking of getting one, but not sure if it's the right one for my car. Here's the link at Canadian Tire....http://www.canadiantire.ca/(removed)...=true

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:17 am

At the bottom of the dash, to the left side of the driver footwell, you'll see the port sticking outta the dash. Can't miss it.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Sat May 07, 2005 9:49 am

Quote, originally posted by CyBeRjUnKiE Â» Here's the link at Canadian Tire....http://www.canadiantire.ca/(removed)...=trueThe link is dead... can't access the scanner but as Mike said, look under the dash on the driver's side for what looks like a long narrow plug.

CEL is on again

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