ethanol blend- bad for engine?

[Zig in East Orleans]

If my memory serves me correctly, a Petro-Can employee in Saskatoon told me back in Feb. that ethanol blended fuel was bad for engine seals. I'm leasing my ride with intent to buy at end of the lease. I've heard that ethanol blend enhances engine performance but I want to use it more for the environmental benefits. Has anyone heard more on the subject?

[Zig in East Orleans]

well, didn't think i'd be replying to my own question but here's some info i've found so far...http://www.ethanolrfa.org/factfic_enper ... ..ext=NOne source i've read claims an octane reading of 113. Not sure if this was for pure, E 85 or 10% blend (doubt it)

[MadBill]

The info in those sites is correct to the best of my knowledge. The 113 octane rating is for pure Ethanol. As blended in gasoline, the octane of the mix is typically the same as for a pure gasoline of the same grade, although some companies do use it to produce slightly "plus premium" grades. As mentioned in the sites, there is a slight negative effect on fuel economy, but proponents tend to skim over this fact...

[ragingfish]

Now this is probably a stupid question, but I'm sure Bill can answer it.Ethanol comes from corn, right? That, to me, makes it an ideal fuel source...fully renewable, and I would assume it can't be too harmful to the environment...So, if ethanol can have it's own octane rating, in this case, 113, that would mean it is combustible, right?So why couldn't you just run pure ethanol in an engine for fuel? Are there modifications needed?

[satur9]

i read on newcelica somewhere that a guy put in ethanol blend. which set off his check engine light. he took it to a dealer and they said h needed a new cat converter and ecu.he was out of town at the time and didnt feel like waiting so he ran out the ethanol put in regular gas and the cel went out.there are certain cars designed to run on this stuff or regular gasoline.but i dont think ours are. ethanol like achohol(water injections)is bad for certain seals likefuel injector seals.it probably wouldnt be to hard to convert over but why(unless its cheaper gas)still to much hassle and youd void your warrenty .ethanol does come from corn and we already know an engine can run on alchohol which can be made naturaly or chemically so why isnt evry car running on it.i'll let you ponder over that answer yourself.

[ragingfish]

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't planning on converting my vibe to an ethanol machine...Was just curious why it doesn't appear to have developed as heavy an interest as an alternative fuel as say, hydrogen.

[millster]

It has for some manufacturers. My parents own a Mercury Sable that was built as an FFV. It is actually designed to run well on ethanol blend all the way down to E85 (85% Ethanol/15% Petrol). Obviously, it's hard to find E85 fuel, but the car does seem to get the best mileage on the 10% Ethanol blend available almost everywhere. Ethanol doesn't have the energy potential that petrolium based fuels do, so the mileage typically goes down as the concentration of Ethanol increases. This is usually offset by the lower cost of the fuel (no import tarrifs). It's not good for all engines, but there are a lot of vehicles out there that will run well on it.

[MadBill]

Ethanol is most often made from corn, but can be distilled from many crops. (Remember we're talking corn liquor here; this is drinking alcohol!)GM and others do build some "flex fuel" models (over a million GM trucks so far) that can burn mixtures of up to 85% ethanol, but at higher concentrations it is quite corrosive (not just to your stomach, Drunken!) as well as needing more than twice as much fuel to burn withy the same amout of air, so the fuel system needs materials and calibration changes. Also, it has a much higher boiling point than the lighter fractions of gasoline, so start up is difficult at lower temperatures with high concentrations. One final impediment to 100% ethanol is that the Feds tax the s**t out of it, because it is drinkable. To be sold as a fuel it must be "denatured" by adding 5% gasoline at the distillery/refinery.

[millster]

Quote, originally posted by MadBill »To be sold as a fuel it must be "denatured" by adding 5% gasoline at the distillery/refinery.Not to mention that many of the consumer-Light Duty, spark ignition FFV vehicles require 15% gasoline blend for cold starting. E95 (5% Petrol) is for use in the compression type engines (diesel).Here's a site with some good info on E85 and Ethanol.http://www.e85fuel.com/

[goodvibe]

Ethanol isn't too bad for modern seals, Nothing to worry about. It has a high Octane rating which is related to its resistance to knock and not its power potential which is less than gasoline. Use the lowest octane gas that will not retard your timing for the best overall performance.

[MadBill]

Quote, originally posted by goodvibe »...its power potential...is less than gasoline...Actually, although its heating value per pound is less than gasoline (11,500 BTU/lb. vs. 19,000 for a typical gasoline), ethanol has a slightly higher Specific Energy (heating value divided by stoichiometric or chemically correct air /fuel ratio): 3.0 vs. 2.92 for gasoline. Additionally, maximum power air/fuel ratio for ethanol is about 40% richer, vs. ~20% for gasoline, thus increasing the advantage. Combining this with the high octane rating which permits knock-free operation at up to maybe 14:1 compression ratio and the five times greater heat of vaporization, which cools the intake charge, ethanol, and even more so methanol, have significant power advantages over gasoline on a engine properly tuned for them.

[millster]

True, on a high compression engine, there will be an advantage. However, most consumer grade, ethanol capable vehicles don't run over 10:1. In actual practice, there is some power loss and a marked decrease in gas mileage with higher ethanol concentrations. I would imagine that as more auto companies adopt diesel engines for consumer vehicles, this will improve.

[Stang2Vibe]

Wow, some great info flying around here, I'm glad I caught this. Feels like I'm sitting in class or something. I have noticed a few things that I'd like to expound upon just a little.Quote, originally posted by millster »Ethanol doesn't have the energy potential that petrolium based fuels do, so the mileage typically goes down as the concentration of Ethanol increases. This is usually offset by the lower cost of the fuel (no import tarrifs).Good point in theory, but the US gets 60% of its fuel oils from Canada and about 15% from our own domestic sources. Neither carry any import tarriffs as the US-Canadian treaty that was made in the mid-80's governing the sharing of fuel sources strictly forbids, in perpituity, the taxation of fuels originating in Canada that are sent to the US. And we don't tax ourselves on fuels domestically produced. So only about 25% of our total fuels are imported and taxed.

[Stang2Vibe]

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »Ethanol comes from corn, right? That, to me, makes it an ideal fuel source...fully renewable, and I would assume it can't be too harmful to the environment...And this is my other beef. Overproduction of crops has been abusing the soil of our farmlands and depleating it until it has little to no use for farming. Corn is one of the crops that is the hardest on the land as it consumes much of the nutrients in the soil and returns next to none back into the soil. I'm sure that Slimer would back me up on this one. So mass production of corn for making fuel is not environmentally friendly either, but it is harmful in a different way than most fuels.

[Cubanpete]

In the Vibe factory Manual that comes with the car, it clearly states NOT to use the ethanol (or tactrol) based fuels. It does not specify the reason, but I believe it might harm rubber parts and sealers,

[goodvibe]

Thanks Madbill. I didn't put my post in context.

[ragingfish]

This is a fascinating thread!

[Zig in East Orleans]

Ola Cubanpete,Thanks for the heads up on the fine print from the manual. Guess I should continue to read the rest. That's too bad, really. I know the Vibe's good on gas, but I like to do as much as i can to alleviate the impact on motha nature. Oh well, next vehicle...biodiesel all the way. OH and Stang2Vibe...we don't need to grow a monocrop (corn) for the ethanol. How about HEMP? It returns a lot of nutrients back to the soil from the leaves. Check out "The Emperor Wears no Clothes" Jack Here. Oh wait, I think our government banned that book.

[Zig in East Orleans]

Correction...make that Jack Herer, and that's YOUR gov't, not the Canadians...eh.too early (5:25)Cheers!Peace love and VIBE.

[huskerpt]

About the nutrients in the soil. Is it really to fault of the corn plant, or maybe we should blame the farmers. Coming from a "country boy", all you have to do it rotate crops, ideally corn to soybeans and back. Beans replenish the nitrogen levels in the soil helping the levels return to normal. So my point is if the farmers would be responsible and rotate their crops the abovementioned problem would not exist. However, farming, like all other businesses, is driven by the almighty dollar.

[sylvainber]

Quote, originally posted by Cubanpete »In the Vibe factory Manual that comes with the car, it clearly states NOT to use the ethanol (or tactrol) based fuels. It does not specify the reason, but I believe it might harm rubber parts and sealers,actually, my manual for the base vibe says that ethanol-blended fuel is ok, it's METHANOL that is counterindicatedp. 5-6:"Gasolines containing oxygenates, such as ethers andethanol, and reformulated gasolines may be available inyour area to contribute to clean air. General Motorsrecommends that you use these gasolines, particularly if they comply with the specifications described earlier.Notice: Your vehicle was not designed for fuel thatcontains methanol. Do not use fuel containingmethanol. It can corrode metal parts in your fuelsystem and also damage the plastic and rubberparts. That damage would not be covered underyour warranty."

[sloth]

My Vibe has no issues with Ethanol. Living in rural Nebraska I can't fill up my GT without getting ethanol fuel, the only fuel locally that is up to 91 ocatane contains ethanol. Most fuels local 85-89 also contain ethanol and I haven't had any problems with it. Nearly 32000 mile on the Vibe now.

[LavaMyVibe]

The Ontario government is considering mandating a 5% ethanol content in gasoline sold here by 2007 and 10% by 2010. Here's a link ->http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Conten ... 2927593Jul. 14, 2004. 06:43 PMEthanol-gas blend cheaper: StudyBY GILLIAN LIVINGSTONCANADIAN PRESSOntarians could save up to seven cents per litre at the pump if the Liberal government moves ahead with its promise to mandate that ethanol be blended with gasoline, the Canadian Renewable Fuels Association said today."If you have had your fill of high gas prices, you should know there is relief — renewable energy such as ethanol and bio-diesel," association president Kory Teneycke said at a news conference.A study by the association states that if ethanol is added to fuel, it would increase the overall supply of gasoline in the market, resulting in a drop in prices.Ethanol also costs less than gasoline, Teneycke said.However, Teneycke acknowledged there is no guarantee that petroleum companies would pass all the savings from using ethanol to customers.During last fall's election campaign, the Liberals said they would require that ethanol make up five per cent of gasoline by 2007, rising to 10 per cent by 2010.At the time, the Liberals said the change would result in at least five new ethanol plants, nearly $500 million in investment and 3,000 direct and indirect jobs.Petroleum companies have already turned to ethanol as a way to make their gasoline more environmentally friendly.Some companies, such as Sunoco, already blend ethanol with their gasoline, Teneycke said.Ethanol is a high-octane, water-free alcohol made by distilling bio-matter such as wheat, corn and straw to produce a high-quality alcohol. It is blended with gasoline to create gasohol, which produces fewer greenhouse gases than gasoline.Angie Robson, a spokeswoman for Energy Minister Dwight Duncan, said the government is in talks with stakeholders to see how the government can fulfil its election promise.In the past year, Manitoba and Saskatchewan have enacted legislation requiring gasoline to include more ethanol.A number of U.S. states already require ethanol to be blended with gasoline, Teneycke said.