Proper Tire Rotation

Bdaz1 · Post by **Bdaz1** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:31 am

I checked the manual and emailed Pontiac CAC (BTW-no help) to get clarification on the proper tire rotation for my Vibe. I have the base w/16" tires. From the Owners Manual: "When rotating your tires, always use the correct rotation pattern shown here." The diagram above the text shows rotating front to rear only. It then goes on to talk about 17" tires which confused me a bit. It says "...they must roll a certain direction for the best overall performance. The direction is shown by an arrow on the sidewalls. Because these tires are directional they should only be rotated as shown here. These tires should only be moved from front to rear and rear to front on the same side of the vehicle."So... isn't this saying BOTH 16" & 17" should only be rotated Front to Rear and back? Sometimes more information is NOT better!Can anyone confirm the correct tire rotation for the base w/16"?Thanks.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:15 am

quote:So... isn't this saying BOTH 16" & 17" should only be rotated Front to Rear and back?Yep, that's what it says. Personally, I don't think that should apply to the non-directions 16" tires. If it were me, I'd go fronts to rear (staying on the same side) and rears cross to front (ie right rear to left front and left rear to right front).

baltimore17 · Post by **baltimore17** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 6:07 am

From the manual on page 6-53: "When rotating your tires, always use the correct rotationpattern shown here." [diagram shows tires staying on the same side of the vehicle]Translation: We really want you to keep the left side tires on the left side and the right side tires on the right side, just the way we told you 25 years ago when radial tires first became popular and people were used to bias ply tires being crossed over right to left but radial tires take a set once they've been rolling in one direction and don't want to be reversed by mirror imaging from one side to the other.On the same page, the manual goes on to say: "If your vehicle has P215/502R17 tires, they must roll in a certain direction for the best overall performance."Translation: If you ignored the previous sentence and diagram about the standard tires, we really, really, really strongly recommend that you not barf up the unidirectional tires by swapping them from one side to the other when doing rotations. Just like the standard tires (just more critically), you really have to keep them on the same side of the car as originally installed.So no, no, no, you don't cross over the tires when you do rotations. Unless you go to an antique tire store and get a set of antediluvian bias ply tires for your 2003 Vibe.No crossover. Bad crossover. Same sides good.

Bdaz1 · Post by **Bdaz1** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:33 am

And so, the confusion continues......

Flip-Side · Post by **Flip-Side** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:07 pm

quote:I'd go fronts to rear (staying on the same side) and rears cross to front (ie right rear to left front and left rear to right front).Thats how I've been doing rotations for years. So unless the wheels are directional, I will always do it this way.

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 10:06 pm

quote:I checked the manual and emailed Pontiac CAC (BTW-no help) to get clarification on the proper tire rotation for my Vibe. I have the base w/16" tires. From the Owners Manual: "When rotating your tires, always use the correct rotation pattern shown here." The diagram above the text shows rotating front to rear only. It then goes on to talk about 17" tires which confused me a bit. It says "...they must roll a certain direction for the best overall performance. The direction is shown by an arrow on the sidewalls. Because these tires are directional they should only be rotated as shown here. These tires should only be moved from front to rear and rear to front on the same side of the vehicle."So... isn't this saying BOTH 16" & 17" should only be rotated Front to Rear and back? Sometimes more information is NOT better!Can anyone confirm the correct tire rotation for the base w/16"?Thanks.Yes the manual is correct. Both size tires should ONLY be rotated front to rear on the same side, NO crossing.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 2:01 am

quote:We really want you to keep the left side tires on the left side and the right side tires on the right side, just the way we told you 25 years ago when radial tires first became popular[quote][quote]So no, no, no, you don't cross over the tires when you do rotations. Unless you go to an antique tire store and get a set of antediluvian bias ply tires for your 2003 Vibe.Yes, 25 years ago when radials first came out this was correct, however this is not true any more. Tire technology has come a long way in 25 years. You CAN change sides and rotation with non-directional radials.Don't believe me, see page 6-51 (page 313 of 374) of the 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix owners manual:http://www.mygmlink.com/pdf/go2content/ ... ix.pdfLast time I checked, the 2002 Grand Prix used radial tires.

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 3:02 am

quote: Yes, 25 years ago when radials first came out this was correct, however this is not true any more. Tire technology has come a long way in 25 years. You CAN change sides and rotation with non-directional radials.Don't believe me, see page 6-51 (page 313 of 374) of the 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix owners manual:http://www.mygmlink.com/pdf/go2content/ ... ix.pdfLast time I checked, the 2002 Grand Prix used radial tires.But so there is no confussion, the Vibe rotation pattern is same side front to rear, rear to front.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 3:09 am

quote:But so there is no confussion, the Vibe rotation pattern is same side front to rear, rear to front.For the 17" directional tires, yes. For the 16" standard tires, no.

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 3:15 am

quote:But so there is no confussion, the Vibe rotation pattern is same side front to rear, rear to front.For the 17" directional tires, yes. For the 16" standard tires, no.As I posted, both size tires are the same. Front to back, back to front, same side. Just as printed in the manual. No error this time. Anyone can do what they want with their own car, but Pontiac has specified same side.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 5:15 am

The manual is incorrect about the 16" tires just like it's wrong about the cabin air filter replacement: http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=982

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 5:40 am

Dealers has been told by Pontiac Vibe Brand Quality Manager that the procedure in the Manual is correct.

baltimore17 · Post by **baltimore17** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 8:26 am

Gee, Scott, getting pretty snippy about this. On http://www.chicagolandmgclub.com/techtips/531.html, the need to keep radials rolling in the same direction is called nonsense. On some sort of a AAA site, http://www.csaa.com/global/articledetai ... 63,00.html, they're happy with swapping sides on present generation radials.RodentTrack at http://www.roadandtrack.com/technical/a ... icleid=269 says that it's OK to swap diagonally, but says that the vehicle's owner's manual is the best authority on rotation.Tiresafety.com (whoever they are) at http://www.tiresafety.com/service/serv_nav.htm also says that crossover rotation is OK.Since I've never experienced right-to-left uneven wear, and since I really don't want to give up on the simplicity of putting one side of the car at a time on jackstands, and since my Germanic genes force me to accept the authority of the owner's manual, that's what I plan to do. But if somebody can get Pontiac to issue a statement that the rotation diagram in the manual is in error, and that crossover rotation has advantages that apply to the stock 16" tire in the Vibe, then I'll invest in another pair of jack stands.

Bdaz1 · Post by **Bdaz1** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 11:52 am

quote:We really want you to keep the left side tires on the left side and the right side tires on the right side, just the way we told you 25 years ago when radial tires first became popularSo no, no, no, you don't cross over the tires when you do rotations. Unless you go to an antique tire store and get a set of antediluvian bias ply tires for your 2003 Vibe.Yes, 25 years ago when radials first came out this was correct, however this is not true any more. Tire technology has come a long way in 25 years. You CAN change sides and rotation with non-directional radials.Don't believe me, see page 6-51 (page 313 of 374) of the 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix owners manual:http://www.mygmlink.com/pdf/go2content/ ... ix.pdfLast time I checked, the 2002 Grand Prix used radial tires.Well, by looking at the diagrams in the Owners Manuals from the 2003 Vibe and my 2002 Bonneville it still looks like the Vibe 16" or 17" is recommended Front to Rear and back. The Bonneville diagram shows the crossover.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 12:19 pm

The problem is, the Grand Prix and Bonneville don't have an option for directional tires so that diagram of crossing the tires is good for all available tires.The Vibe however has non-directional and directional tires available. There should be 2 diagrams for the available tires. One that shows the non-directional can be crossed and one that shows the directional shouldn't be.Just because it's in the manual doesn't mean it 100% correct. As I posted before, there is one error already identified by a GenVibe member: http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=982

robodog61 · Post by **robodog61** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 6:01 pm

Thank you MA VIBE Fan and Baltimore 17. Why can't people just follow the manual? The same thing with the Amsoil. If the owner's manual says rotate front to back, just do it. If it says don't use non API certified oil, then don't use it. I think that these forums are entertaining and mostly informative (sometimes you find bits of information here that illuminates a problem you are having), but I can see how they confuse people who aren't really sure. Just keep it simple for the vast majority of people who want simple answers. Just my 2 cents. Thanks

Cubanpete · Post by **Cubanpete** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 10:35 pm

Hi Scott:So in the case of tire replacement for example, I would like to put 17" directional tires, what do I have to look for on the tire(markings)??? I mean is there a symbol or something??Peter

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 11:07 pm

quote:Thank you MA VIBE Fan and Baltimore 17. Why can't people just follow the manual?What are you talking about. Baltimore17 backs my claim:quote:On http://www.chicagolandmgclub.com/techtips/531.html, the need to keep radials rolling in the same direction is called nonsense. On some sort of a AAA site, http://www.csaa.com/global/articledetai ... 63,00.html, they're happy with swapping sides on present generation radials.RodentTrack at http://www.roadandtrack.com/technical/a ... icleid=269 says that it's OK to swap diagonally, but says that the vehicle's owner's manual is the best authority on rotation.Tiresafety.com (whoever they are) at http://www.tiresafety.com/service/serv_nav.htm also says that crossover rotation is OK.quote:Just keep it simple for the vast majority of people who want simple answers.The simple answer is non-directional radial tires can be corsses side to side. Directional tires should not.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 11:09 pm

quote:So in the case of tire replacement for example, I would like to put 17" directional tires, what do I have to look for on the tire(markings)??? I mean is there a symbol or something??Yes, there is a small arrow with the word ROTATION in it on the sidewall of the tire.

Bdaz1 · Post by **Bdaz1** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 11:34 pm

quote:The problem is, the Grand Prix and Bonneville don't have an option for directional tires so that diagram of crossing the tires is good for all available tires.The Vibe however has non-directional and directional tires available. There should be 2 diagrams for the available tires. One that shows the non-directional can be crossed and one that shows the directional shouldn't be.Just because it's in the manual doesn't mean it 100% correct. As I posted before, there is one error already identified by a GenVibe member: http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=982You may be correct. I've emailed Pontiac's Customer Assistance Center AGAIN to get an answer. The first time I just got a canned "we don't know, ask your dealer" (who BTW-didn't know either). I agree the manual could be incorrect and would like Pontiac to clarify and put the issue to rest. If the manual IS incorrect, they should mail owners an update insert for it. I'm not sure now what's bothering me more. Not knowing with certainty what the correct rotation is -OR- not getting the answer "easily" from Pontiac! The good news is that I've got 5000 miles before I need to do my 1st rotation (That is, of course, if the manual is correct about the tire rotation interval.)

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 3:41 am

quote:The good news is that I've got 5000 miles before I need to do my 1st rotation (That is, of course, if the manual is correct about the tire rotation interval.)LOL!5000 miles is a good estimate for tire rotation. That's about every oil change. Persoanlly I do it every other oil change because I change my oil every 2500 miles. Why so soon? Because I only put 5000 miles a year on my cars so every 2500 miles is an oil change every 6 months. So my tire rotation works out to be every 5000 miles or once a year.

Bdaz1 · Post by **Bdaz1** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 9:31 pm

Well here is the answer from Pontiac's "Customer Assistance Center"! Note my email to them below the reply they sent me!__________________________________Dear Mr. XXXX,Thank you for contacting the Pontiac Customer Assistance Center. We apologize for any dissatisfaction or inconvenience this may cause you. We have examined request number 1-1234567 in which your concern is documented with the Pontiac Customer Assistance Center and with our central office and we are in agreement with the position previously provided to you. The Customer Assistance Center is neither trained nor equipped to provide technical support. Our only suggestion to you regarding the correct tire rotation sequence for your 2003 Vibe is that you contact your local Pontiac Dealer. Our dealers are our technical experts in this field and can best address your question.If you should need to contact us in the future, please e-mail us again or call our Pontiac Customer Assistance Center at 800-762-2737. Customer Relationship Managers are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., Eastern Time.Sincerely,xxxxxxxCustomer Relationship ManagerPontiac Customer Assistance Center#Subject=RE: Pontiac Vibe Owner Assistance-----Original Message-----From: xxxxxxxxSent: 11/17/02 11:24:47 AMTo: cac@pontiac.comSubject: Pontiac Vibe Owner Assistance------------------------------------------------------------Name : xxxxxxxxAddress : xxxxxxxxDaytime Phone Number : xxxxxxx ex.Evening Phone Number : xxxxxxx ex.Vehicle : 2002 VibeVIN : xxxxxxxxxxMileage : Dealer :Comments : NOTE: THIS IS FOR A 2003 VIBE (the2003 year was not a selectionavailable on this form above)!QUESTION: There is some confusionabout the proper tire rotation formy vehicle. I have the "Base Vibe"2WD with 16" tires. The OwnersManual shows a diagram of Front toRear only Rotation and then talksabout 17" directional tires. MyVibe has 16" tires. Is the diagramin the owners manual correct forBOTH 16" & 17" tires? Should themanual show a crossover rotationfor the 16" tires? Please DO NOTrefer me to the Dealer. They didn'tknow either. Please reply with theanswer NOT a referral.Thanks.___________________________________ They were a BIG help! ___________________________________ UPDATECalled my Pontiac Dealer's service dept. and they said to crossover.When I asked about the diagram and info in the Owners Manual for 17" directional tires they said they don't know about that. "Crossover, that's how we're doing 'um here!" I asked them to clarify and they said this is for BOTH 16" & 17"

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 11:21 pm

According to the following webpage, the non-directional Goodyear Eagle RS-A tires used on our Vibe were original equipment on the 1998 Grand Prix (see: Tim , from Joliet, IL, USA): http://www.carreview.com/PRD_986_1577crx.aspxIf you look at page 6-46 (321 of 402) of the 1998 Grand Prix owners manual, you will see those tires can be swapped side to side:http://www.mygmlink.com/pdf/go2content/ ... ix.pdfAlso, acording to the following webpage, the non-directional Goodyear Eagle RS-A tires used on our Vibe were original equipment on the 1995 Grand Am: http://www.carsurvey.org/viewcomments_r ... 274.htmlIf you look at page 6-37 (248 of 354) of the 1995 Grand Am owners manual, you will see those tires can be swapped side to side:http://www.mygmlink.com/pdf/go2content/ ... randam.pdf

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 11:50 pm

quote:Ok...now let's calm down guys!I am calm. No problem here. I'm just trying to answer the original question which was a clarification of the manuals description of the tire rotation. My opinion was non-directional tires could be crossed. I'm just trying to provide as much information as possible to back up my opinion. Everyone is free to agree or disagree with me.

Bdaz1 · Post by **Bdaz1** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:01 am

quote:No...I just found that some people had trouble "accepting" your input....No problem here either. In fact, I think NovaResource is correct and value his opinion (as well as all others in this Forum).MY frustration is with GM/Pontiac. Both the Customer Assistance Center and my local Dealer should, in my opinion, be able to easily answer this simple question about tire rotation. If the Owners Manual is in error (or unclear) they should append it.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 11:54 am

quote:Both the Customer Assistance Center and my local Dealer should, in my opinion, be able to easily answer this simple question about tire rotation. If the Owners Manual is in error (or unclear) they should append it.Now that's something I can't argue with.

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 11:02 pm

On Thursday November 14th, during the regular monthly service training broadcast, Quality Manager for Vibe (Jeff last name begins with an "S"), talked about the importance of proper tire pressure to the Vibe's ride and the importantance of following the rotation procedure in the manual-Front to Back, Back to Front. Ask your dealer, I did. I think it is very clear from the posts here since the introduction of the Vibe, that it is so different from everything that GM has given the dealers before that they are having a hard time keeping up with the correct info. What each owner does with his or her tires is up to them.Now maybe a rousing discussion of proper tire pressure, perhaps. I'll start. Pontiac recomends 32psi (sorry for the Canadians) front and rear except the AWD where it is 35 psi Front.

Bdaz1 · Post by **Bdaz1** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 11:56 am

quote:On Thursday November 14th, during the regular monthly service training broadcast, Quality Manager for Vibe (Jeff last name begins with an "S"), talked about the importance of proper tire pressure to the Vibe's ride and the importantance of following the rotation procedure in the manual-Front to Back, Back to Front. Ask your dealer, I did. I think it is very clear from the posts here since the introduction of the Vibe, that it is so different from everything that GM has given the dealers before that they are having a hard time keeping up with the correct info. I did ask my dealer MA-VIBE-FAN. Their answer (different than the one from your dealer) is posted above (8:31AM 11/18/2002). That's why I'm trying to get Pontiac to confirm this. Ask several Dealers and you'll get some saying one thing and others saying another. UPDATE:I emailed Pontiac's CAC again, told them I was not satisfied with the non-answer given previously and that I would appreciate an answer to this simple question. Here's the reply on 11/19:Dear Mr. xxxxx,Thank you for contacting the Pontiac Customer Assistance Center. Your tires should be rotated as stated in the owner's manual. This means that they should not be crossed over, but rather moved from the same side. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to call or e-mail us again.If you should need to contact us in the future, please e-mail us again or call our Pontiac Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-762-2737. Customer Relationship Managers are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., Eastern Time.Sincerely,Tim xxxxxxCustomer Relationship ManagerPontiac Customer Assistance Center____________________________________________FYI - I did reply back to "Tim" and asked for clarification as to whether this applies to BOTH 16" and 17" tires, "directional" or not. I'll post the reply when I receive it.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:21 pm

quote:I emailed Pontiac's CAC again, told them I was not satisfied with the non-answer given previously and that I would appreciate an answer to this simple question.Sounds like they are just blowing you off. I read that email and saw:"We have no idea. If the manual says same side then do what the manual says. Stop emailing us about this."

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:28 pm

. I did ask my dealer MA-VIBE-FAN. Their answer (different than the one from your dealer) is posted above (8:31AM 11/18/2002). That's why I'm trying to get Pontiac to confirm this. Ask several Dealers and you'll get some saying one thing and others saying another. As the old saying goes," lets go to the video replay". Dealer showed me the tape. Its a shame the dealers can't get behind the resourses GM seams to be offering to help us customers.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 1:32 am

This is gonna sound like I'm switching sides but I'm not. I still believe crossing tires during rotation is important with non-directional tires. However, the tire manufacturer is not always the best place to get the advice. My reason for saying this is because the tire manufactuer has no idea about the vehicle their product is installed on. There MAY be some suspension design reason to keep a non-directional tire on the same side of a particular vehicle.99% of the time is isn't a problem and I have yet to see proof that this is true on the Vibe so I still believe cross rotating is correct for non-directional tires on the Vibe.

Bdaz1 · Post by **Bdaz1** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:07 am

Well here's my reply from Pontiac's CAC. Seems THEY called my dealer and got the following answer which, BTW is another NEW twist to this simple (yet complicated) question.______________________________________________________________Dear Mr. xxxxx,Thank you for contacting the Pontiac Customer Assistance Center. We appreciate your inquiry for clarification is the tire rotation pattern the same for both 16" and 17" tires whether directional or not on your 2003 Pontiac Vibe. We have researched your concern with the Service Advisor Kirk xxxxxxx at xxxxxxx Pontiac.We were advised that the size of the tires does not matter. Mr. Kirk xxxxxxx states if your vehicle is an All Wheel Drive rotate the tires rightside front to rightside rear, leftside front to leftside rear do not criss cross them. Mr. Strickland states if the vehicle is an front wheel drive rotate the tires in a criss cross pattern this means the rear leftside tires goes to the front rightside, the rear rightside tire goes to the front leftside of the vehicle. We hope this answer your questions.If you should need to contact us in the future, please e-mail us again or call our Pontiac Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-762-2737. Customer Relationship Managers are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., Eastern Time. We have documented your comments in file number x1-xxxxxxxx. Please refer to this file number in any communication you may send.Sincerely,Marie xxxxxxxCustomer Relationship ManagerPontiac Customer Assistance Center____________________________________________________________So.....to summarize what I've been told from my Dealer and the Pontiac Customer Assistance Center: Pontiac CAC (1st email): The Customer Assistance Center is neither trained nor equipped to provide technical support. Our only suggestion to you regarding the correct tire rotation sequence for your 2003 Vibe is that you contact your local Pontiac Dealer. Our dealers are our technical experts in this field and can best address your question. My Dealer (1st call from me): When I asked about the diagram and info in the Owners Manual for 17" directional tires they said they don't know about that. "Crossover, that's how we're doing 'um here!" I asked them to clarify and they said this is for BOTH 16" & 17" Pontiac CAC (second email): Thank you for contacting the Pontiac Customer Assistance Center. Your tires should be rotated as stated in the owner's manual. This means that they should not be crossed over, but rather moved from the same side. Pontiac CAC (third email asking for clarification):Thank you for contacting the Pontiac Customer Assistance Center. We appreciate your inquiry for clarification is the tire rotation pattern the same for both 16" and 17" tires whether directional or not on your 2003 Pontiac Vibe. We have researched your concern with the Service Advisor Kirk xxxxxxx at xxxxxxx Pontiac.We were advised that the size of the tires does not matter. Mr. Kirk xxxxxxx states if your vehicle is an All Wheel Drive rotate the tires rightside front to rightside rear, leftside front to leftside rear do not criss cross them. Mr. Strickland states if the vehicle is an front wheel drive rotate the tires in a criss cross pattern this means the rear leftside tires goes to the front rightside, the rear rightside tire goes to the front leftside of the vehicle. We hope this answer your questions._________________________________________________________Yup. This answered my questions. MA-VIBE-FAN,Did the video you refer to specify size of tires, directional tires or not, AWD vs. FWD?

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:52 am

Clear as mud.

Bdaz1 · Post by **Bdaz1** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 8:53 am

The "FINAL ANSWER" from Pontiac's Customer Assistance Center:Dear Mr. xxxxx,Thank you for contacting the Pontiac Customer Assistance Center. We apologize for any confusion it appears we may have caused. The owner's manual is correct for both 16" and 17" tires. You should not cross over when rotating, but go from rear to front and back again.If you should need to contact us in the future, please e-mail us again or call our Pontiac Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-762-2737. Customer Relationship Managers are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., Eastern Time.Sincerely,Tim xxxxxxCustomer Relationship ManagerPontiac Customer Assistance Center__________________________________________Of course, this means my Dealer is doing them incorrectly for the Vibe.

IndigoXRS · Post by **IndigoXRS** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 2:12 am

Funny, my Matrix manual shows the proper tire rotation for NON-DIRECTIONAL tires on a FWD car as being the modified cross-over. For AWD and directional tires front to rear/ rear to front same side. I think this is a boo-boo on Pontiacs part.

d_m_kolb · Post by **d_m_kolb** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 2:59 am

I have all ways rotated tires front to back and then the backs to the front. I'm going to keep doing it this way. I haven't had a problem yet.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 3:03 am

quote:Funny, my Matrix manual shows the proper tire rotation for NON-DIRECTIONAL tires on a FWD car as being the modified cross-over.Gee......do you think I was right all along? Na, it couldn't.

IndigoXRS · Post by **IndigoXRS** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:05 am

I do believe you are correct Nova. My father is a Toyota tech and when I asked him he told me in no uncertain terms that the modified crossover method is the appropriate one for the FWD car without directional tires. I was merely pointing out the fact that the Matrix and Vibe manual did not jive......kind of interesting especially since they are the same car.........

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:26 am

Sorry for the confusion IndigoXRS, my comments weren't directed to you. Actually just the opposite. Thanks for verifying my suspicions about it being an error in the Vibe manual.

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 11:22 pm

quote:Sorry for the confusion IndigoXRS, my comments weren't directed to you. Actually just the opposite. Thanks for verifying my suspicions about it being an error in the Vibe manual.No the comments were directed to the people from Pontiac who read this board. It is not an error in the manual. Pontiac Brand Quality Manager for the Vibe says rotation is same side no cross.

IndigoXRS · Post by **IndigoXRS** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 11:52 pm

So, I assume then that you feel that the Toyota manual is wrong.............No offense, but Toytota did design the chassis (based on the Corolla), I'll take the designers suggestion over the suggestion of a 'brand manager' (aka marketing person) any day.

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:29 am

quote:So, I assume then that you feel that the Toyota manual is wrong.............No offense, but Toytota did design the chassis (based on the Corolla), I'll take the designers suggestion over the suggestion of a 'brand manager' (aka marketing person) any day.I have no source of Toyota information. I think the posts on this board are only ment to concern the Vibe, perhaps with more Matrix owners stopping by, all posters will have to be more specific in the future. I also have no information on what the marketing people think should be done with the tires. All I know is that the Matrix and Vibe are very simular, and the person that is in charge of the all Vibe Service Issues for Pontiac has said no crossing.

IndigoXRS · Post by **IndigoXRS** » Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:45 am

The Vibe and Matrix are the same.......only sheetmetal differences between them. Toyota desgined and engineered the chasis, and use it on the Corolla as well. Toyota says the modified crossover is the best method of tire rotation.....I'm not sure why GM decided to differ it's information from what the designer suggests, I do know that it's unfortunate that Pontiac isn't providing you with the best maintenance info available.The only rational reason would be to eliminate confusion between the methods based on AWD. FWD, and directional tires. Seems like maybe they just decided to use the least common denominatior as not to confuse consumers and GM mechanics..........Basically, they have provided you with an acceptable way, but not the best way.

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:09 am

quote:The Vibe and Matrix are the same.......only sheetmetal differences between them. Toyota desgined and engineered the chasis, and use it on the Corolla as well. Toyota says the modified crossover is the best method of tire rotation.....I'm not sure why GM decided to differ it's information from what the designer suggests, I do know that it's unfortunate that Pontiac isn't providing you with the best maintenance info available.The only rational reason would be to eliminate confusion between the methods based on AWD. FWD, and directional tires. Seems like maybe they just decided to use the least common denominatior as not to confuse consumers and GM mechanics..........Basically, they have provided you with an acceptable way, but not the best way.So Toyota has smarter customers and mechanics? I guess that is yet another area where the Vibe and Matrix are different.

IndigoXRS · Post by **IndigoXRS** » Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:28 am

I'm not here to start a brand fight. Most of us are the exception to the rule......we want to understand about our cars, how to best take care of them and get the most out of every aspect of them. Most folks just want a car that gets them from point A to B with no problems and limited effort in maintenance. Those are the folks that I was refering to when I suggest that they are trying to keep confusion low. As far as the tech comment, I think we've seen from other posts on this tread that folks can't get a straight answer from their service department.......I called my dad and he answered the question immediately off the top of his head. I also called my local dealership that I use and they too (the service advisor for God's sake) answered the question without hesitation...........same answer, 2 different dealerships, in 2 different parts of the US, one in the NE, one in the SE.

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:08 am

No fights here. We have all been working through this issue to come up with answers. Half this thread has been about what each individual owner thinks they will do with their own car and half has been what is the actual correct Pontiac recomendation. Your offering of the Toyota recomendation has just brought new light to our discussions. And I think this issue is not how quickly our dealers give an answer but how correct is the answer they give. It appears that many of the Pontiac dealers are not putting the proper time in to their new product. Too many are assuming that this is another Pontiac and that things are the same. Look for an earlier thread about license plate screws as an example. And this tire rotation issue is just another. Why did Pontiac elect not to offer an automatic on the GT? Why did Toyota choose to offer a cassette option? Why does the Pontiac Security System not respond with a beep but the Toyota does? Besides rotation, I bet there are other differences in recomended maintenance between the two. If we are here discussing these issues, then GM (or Toyota) can read and react and force more info to the dealers (like the video update).

Bdaz1 · Post by **Bdaz1** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:04 am

Well said MA.