M&T speaker upgrade question

[tbm34]

I have the “premium” sound package in my Vibe with the 200 watt amp and six speakers. I want to upgrade my speakers with the Polk db6500 component system. From looking at the posted wiring diagram, I see that the front speakers and tweeters are wired separately to the amp. Can I simply replace the door speakers and separate tweeters with the existing wiring? What are the cross-overs that are included/described?Thanks

[Jahntassa]

I would think you can just connect the Polk crossover to the woofer wiring.. I don't have the M&T, so i'm not sure what the best way to go with that is.. IE, i'm not sure if the crossovers in the M&T amp are good enough to deal with the newer speakers hooked straight up, or if the crossovers are in the M&T amp at ALL..

[satur9]

i wouldnt use the polk crossovers. and just wire it up with the existing wire.if the tweeters go straight to the amp it probably has crossover in it there is no resistor mounted on the tweeter like cheap cars used to do . so its a probably a crosover(thought it may be a crappy passive one.)when you take the tweeter out hook the mid to the wires if it has a crosover you will hear little if any music in the midbass

[Jahntassa]

Try it out and see. For some reason I seem to remember the M&T speakers being 2 ohm speakers, which the Polks are not.. you'll probably lose volume to the Polks no matter which way if that's the case.Try what Satur9 suggested, plug the woofer into the tweeter wires, if you hear very little sound, then there's a crossover in the amp, and you can try not using the Polk crossovers. If there are crossovers built-into the amp, then you might not be able to use the Polk crossovers at all unless you upgrade the amp or radio.

[Psychobroker]

Quote, originally posted by Jahntassa »Try it out and see. For some reason I seem to remember the M&T speakers being 2 ohm speakers, which the Polks are not.. you'll probably lose volume to the Polks no matter which way if that's the case. they are most definitely 2 omhs

[tbm34]

Psychobroker,What did you do with your factory M&T tweeters when you installed your Polk db 6750 component speakers? From your pictures I can see you installed your tweeters in the door, but the tweeter grills by your rear view mirrors are still there as well. Did you connect the crossovers to your front and Rear channel woofer wires?Thanks-tom

[tbm34]

Quote, originally posted by satur9 »i wouldnt use the polk crossovers. and just wire it up with the existing wire.if the tweeters go straight to the amp it probably has crossover in it there is no resistor mounted on the tweeter like cheap cars used to do . so its a probably a crosover(thought it may be a crappy passive one.)when you take the tweeter out hook the mid to the wires if it has a crosover you will hear little if any music in the midbassI looked at my M&T tweeters yesterday, and they do have resisters right on the tweeters. Does this mean no cross-over in the amp?

[ebslopp]

Quote, originally posted by tbm34 »I looked at my M&T tweeters yesterday, and they do have resisters right on the tweeters. Does this mean no cross-over in the amp?Those are capacitors, and yes it means that your amp doesn't have a crossover.

[tbm34]

Quote, originally posted by ebslopp »Those are capacitors, and yes it means that your amp doesn't have a crossover.So for my Polk component system, should I just use the provided cross-overs through the woofer wires and remove the M&T tweeters?If one buys and amp with built in cross-overs, what happens to the ones that come with the component system?Thanks guru's.

[ebslopp]

I think I would use the polk crossovers since they are designed specifically for your speakers. In the case where your amp has a built in crossover, you'd typically disable it if possible. Does your polk component system have four speakers?

[satur9]

i could have swore when i pulled my tweeter i didnt see a resistor or capacitor. i was under the impression that resistors are use to "block" the high power from reaching and blowing relatively fragile tweeters.and capacitors are hooked to amps to hold and release a steady current to the amp despite voltage fluctuationsin the cars charging system.why would it be a capacitor on the tweeter. whatever it is. since there is one there.you could either : 1) unhook stock tweeters and run components off the woofer power(two wasted channels of power unless there is a way to bridge the woofer power and tweeter power then take it to the polk crosovers2)leave the stock tweeter in .and run components off woofer power (your mounting tweeters on the rear doors arent you ,do the same in front and have 6 tweeters)3)use the polk crossovers for tweeter and buy a set of woofer crossovers.

[Jahntassa]

Alright, sometimes, the quickreply sucks.----Capacitors are used for two things: Power supply, and sound cutoff.When a cap is placed in line with the power to the amplifier, it helps provide on-demand power to the amp, to provide cleaner sound, and less drain on the electrical system. When placed in line with a speaker connection (on the positive side), it acts as a high-pass filter, filtering out low/midrange signal to the speaker. These bass-blockers can filter out certain frequencies based on the rating of the capacitor, and the resistance of the speakers.Resistors are generally not used with speakers as they have natural resistance (usually 2 or 4 ohm).The reccomended method to hooking up your polks would be such:Disconnect the stock tweeter and woofer, connect the polk crossover to the woofer signal, and connect the new tweeter and midrange to the crossover.When adding an amplifier later, you can also augment this setup with the crossover built into the amp, as the amplifier crossovers are generally working with the low-level signal before it's amplified, thus giving a cleaner signal overall. You would still use the Polk crossover, as if you didn't, you'd need four seperate channels to run each tweeter /midrange. Plus, if you did this, you'd be feeding more of a full-range signal to the midrange, which would ultimately sound worse.Basically, if you used an amplifier crossover in conjunction with the speaker crossover, it'll help make a cleaner sound by restricting the frequencies getting to the speaker crossover, therefore making the speaker crossover do less work, and putting less of a strain on it.Quote, originally posted by satur9 » 1) unhook stock tweeters and run components off the woofer power(two wasted channels of power unless there is a way to bridge the woofer power and tweeter power then take it to the polk crosovers2)leave the stock tweeter in .and run components off woofer power (your mounting tweeters on the rear doors arent you ,do the same in front and have 6 tweeters)3)use the polk crossovers for tweeter and buy a set of woofer crossovers.1) This is true, you are technically "wasting" two channels, but there's no real good way to make up for that, unless you run the stock tweeters AND the polk component set at the same time.2) You could do this, also. I'd tend to think that many tweeters would eventually destroy your hearing. Having more tweeters means way more high-end, which is one part of your hearing that could be destroyed fairly easily. I have four tweeters in my car, but my speaker crossovers are adjustable, and I have them set to the lowest setting, as well as a 14 band EQ with the high-end carefully set.3) This would be somewhat pointless... You'd be spending extra money on something that's already there. The crossovers that come with the Polk components work for BOTH the tweeters and the woofers. It cuts off the low/mid signal to the tweeters, and makes the woofers recieve only midrange.

[HamiltonAudio]

One thing that we're completely missing in this thread is PHASE and LOAD. The passive xover that comes with the comp set is a lot more than just a xover. It is a Zobel network that matches and levels the overall impedence of the speakers. (a pair of 4 ohm speakers "appear" to be a total 4 ohm load after the xover). There is also an attenuation circuit in them, sometimes adjustable. This softens the tweeters output in relation to the midbass. And there was great care in matching the overall phase of the pair of signal after having been run thru all of this circuitry!!Does the passive xover with the comp set have the ability to "bi amp"?? This means being able to use separate amplifier channels for the mid/tweet. If you have this feature (generally only on higher end spkrs), then you can use both the existing tweet and mid outputs to power the xover for more overall output.if the factory drivers are 2 ohms EACH, run separately...then using just the midrange output at 4 ohms to power both comp set drivers will surely suck. There will be a substantial loss in power (well not a loss, but you're just not using it)...this in and of itself should disuade you from doing this.All in all, can you determine which output (mid/tweet) in the car has more power? Use that one to power the passive xover for now, and the lack of performance will egg you onto an aftermarket amp pretty quick!!0.02b

[Jahntassa]

Quote, originally posted by HamiltonAudio »Does the passive xover with the comp set have the ability to "bi amp"?? This means being able to use separate amplifier channels for the mid/tweet. If you have this feature (generally only on higher end spkrs), then you can use both the existing tweet and mid outputs to power the xover for more overall output.if the factory drivers are 2 ohms EACH, run separately...then using just the midrange output at 4 ohms to power both comp set drivers will surely suck. There will be a substantial loss in power (well not a loss, but you're just not using it)...this in and of itself should disuade you from doing this.No, the Polks are a single input crossover network. I've heard of bi-amp systems, but they seem fairly rare, as most people would rather just use seperate crossovers if they're running something that expensive.The 2 Ohm vs. 4 Ohm problem is a problem that exists when integrating with most factory systems. A good portion of Bose factory systems actually use 1 Ohm loads, and generally require bypassing the amplifier entirely.We've tried to make it quite well known that changing out JUST the speakers in the M&T system will result in better quality, but less volume. To regain that volume loss, one would need to switch out the M&T amplifier for something larger, and if that's the case, the best idea would be to just replace the whole system.As for the power output being different? The woofer channels would be more capable of putting out more power than the tweeter channels, as tweeters generally need less power anyway. Less air to move overall.Not every crossover network has an attenuation system. I don't remember if the db series does, but I know the ex series Doesn't. The MOMO series has a selectable tweeter attenuator.As far as the concerns about phase go, that's somewhat of a moot point with this system, there's one input, and two outputs, all very plainly labeled (IN +/-, Mid +/-, Tw +/-) All they need to know is match up the inputs, and match up the outputs. Component speakers are slightly more complicated than normal coaxials, but no need to overcomplicate it.

[tbm34]

Quote, originally posted by Jahntassa »The reccomended method to hooking up your polks would be such:Disconnect the stock tweeter and woofer, connect the polk crossover to the woofer signal, and connect the new tweeter and midrange to the crossover.When adding an amplifier later, you can also augment this setup with the crossover built into the amp, as the amplifier crossovers are generally working with the low-level signal before it's amplified, thus giving a cleaner signal overall. You would still use the Polk crossover, as if you didn't, you'd need four seperate channels to run each tweeter /midrange. Plus, if you did this, you'd be feeding more of a full-range signal to the midrange, which would ultimately sound worse.Basically, if you used an amplifier crossover in conjunction with the speaker crossover, it'll help make a cleaner sound by restricting the frequencies getting to the speaker crossover, therefore making the speaker crossover do less work, and putting less of a strain on it.Thanks for all the input everybody. Since I’m planning on eventually replacing the head unit and amp, I’ll hook up the Polk crossovers through the woofer channels, and remove the M&T tweeters, and leave this channel unused. This way it will be set-up correctly for a new head unit and 4-channel amp. P.S. Can you even get decent amps without built in crossovers anymore?

[Jahntassa]

Quote, originally posted by tbm34 »P.S. Can you even get decent amps without built in crossovers anymore?Possibly, but most likely not, any decent amp is decent because it can do things like adjustable crossovers.

[satur9]

evry amp in my crutchfield catalog has crossovers.but most usually have on and off switch on it.i would try the headunit only then replace the stock amp i your still not satified. i have the stock moon and tunes and just changed the door speakers to sony xplod 3 ways. that makes six tweeter i like it it offsets the sub in the back.i can still here the little bells and whistles at freeway speeds with all the windows down as opposed to my brothers car with stock speakers and two 12 inchers you hear NOTHING but bass, no balance. i like components but i figured to much of a fuss and i already have tweeters.which is why most people buy components tweeter imaging

[Jahntassa]

You get components sometimes for the imaging, but also because you can get cleaner sound by restricting the frequencies going to those speakers. Also, it's a bit easier for the midrange to move air when it doesn't have a tweeter stalk sticking through it.To each his own, though. Everyone hears differently, and wants a different sound. Nothing wrong with NOT using components, that's for sure!

[HamiltonAudio]

Quote, originally posted by Jahntassa »As far as the concerns about phase go, that's somewhat of a moot point with this system, there's one input, and two outputs, all very plainly labeled (IN +/-, Mid +/-, Tw +/-) All they need to know is match up the inputs, and match up the outputs. Component speakers are slightly more complicated than normal coaxials, but no need to overcomplicate it.Haha looks like you don't know what I mean. The phase I speak of is the relative phase of the output signal to the input. Crossovers of ANY type will play with the overal signal phase. For example, a 6db/oct xover will put the signal 90 deg out of phase from the input. 12 db/oct is 180 deg, 18 db/oc is 270 deg. Good quality passives will have circuits in them that offset/balance this. The phase you speak of is one driver in relation to another. The phase I speak of is the input signal (amplifier power) in relation to the output signal (sound from your speakers).b-money

[Jahntassa]

[QUOTE=HamiltonAudio]Haha looks like you don't know what I mean. The phase I speak of is the relative phase of the output signal to the input. Crossovers of ANY type will play with the overal signal phase. For example, a 6db/oct xover will put the signal 90 deg out of phase from the input. 12 db/oct is 180 deg, 18 db/oc is 270 deg. Good quality passives will have circuits in them that offset/balance this. The phase you speak of is one driver in relation to another. The phase I speak of is the input signal (amplifier power) in relation to the output signal (sound from your speakers).[QUOTE]That's true, the phase I was speaking of is one driver in relation to another. We are Vibe enthusiasts, and don't need to know about the overall technical details of crossovers. Most people just need to know in / out and that's it.. Knowing such overly technical information is always good, but we don't need to start infusing it around here, like I said, most people just need to know if something will work or not, there's no reason to make things more confusing than they need to be.

[satur9]

actually its kind of funny as i was looking in the crutchfield yesterday(see above post)and looking at the components mentioned above. i was wondering about the db/octave crossover slope. is the higer the number better or is it all relative to wether its high or low pass. hi/ hi lo/lo

[Jahntassa]

Quote, originally posted by satur9 »actually its kind of funny as i was looking in the crutchfield yesterday(see above post)and looking at the components mentioned above. i was wondering about the db/octave crossover slope. is the higer the number better or is it all relative to wether its high or low pass. hi/ hi lo/lo It's a bit late, so I didn't have a chance to see exactly what you're talking about.. If you haven't seen it, here's the manual with the specs for the db component systems.. http://www.polkaudio.com/downl...l.pdf

[satur9]

actually i was just responding to the post about the audio guys technical info . iwas wondering about crossovers slopes in general i probably wouldnt have bothered posting such a technical question here but he posted a technical answer first.lol.

[HamiltonAudio]

Quote, originally posted by Jahntassa »That's true, the phase I was speaking of is one driver in relation to another. We are Vibe enthusiasts, and don't need to know about the overall technical details of crossovers. Most people just need to know in / out and that's it.. Knowing such overly technical information is always good, but we don't need to start infusing it around here, like I said, most people just need to know if something will work or not, there's no reason to make things more confusing than they need to be.I was unaware that the phasing of a system was all that technical. I am of the opinion and nature that if I suggest something, I back it up with fact and expertise. As a consumer, its hard for ME to accept someones suggestion on anything that I'm unfamiliar with unless they demonstrate they understand the situation.again, if you reread the posts, its really not that technical. Its the reasoning behind what I suggested, thats all.bmoney

[HamiltonAudio]

Quote, originally posted by satur9 »actually i was just responding to the post about the audio guys technical info . iwas wondering about crossovers slopes in general i probably wouldnt have bothered posting such a technical question here but he posted a technical answer first.lol.crossover slopes are an intersting subject. without getting too technical (for fear of further chastising), a steeper slope means the filter rolls off the signal more quickly (think of the line chart with a steeper curve). On a subwoofer system, its not uncommon at all to see 24db/oct slopes on even built in xovers. On a subwoofer system this is reasonable, since the phase implications are almost moot.However, super duper steep slopes on front end xovers is something more of a rarity. The phase implications are noteworthy, and the cost/complexity of building passive 24db/oct xovers often adds to the phasing problems which makes mfgs avoid them for the most part. You'll see 12 db/oct on a good comp set. 6db/oct inline filters on just the tweeter is common on lesser comp sets.as you're starting to see...getting quality sound from your vehicle (vibe or otherwise) takes a LOT more planning and investigation than just slumping in the speakers that happen to fit. For many users, this form of upgrade is acceptable. But from what I'm reading here, there are many enthusiasts looking for a lot more....great questions!!bmoney

[ZubenElGenubi]

Okay, I've read and re-read this thread until I'm screwy in the head. (Thank you, Dr. Seuss!)Here's my question:If I were to upgrade my 6-speaker system like so: Replace Front Woofers with the woofer of a component system Replace Rear Woofers with 2-way co-axial.Would there be any problems besides reduction in volume? Even though I'd be replacing 2-ohm with 4-ohm speakers, I'm betting that the aftermarket speakers will have increased sensitivity.I'm looking at the Polk db650 or Infinity 6002si for the co-axials and the Polk db6500 or Infinity 6000cs for the woofer components.

[Jahntassa]

I'm pretty sure the only thing would be the reduced volume with the M&T.

[Psychobroker]

reduction in volume, reduction in bass and mid-bass, but an increase in overall clarity

[tbm34]

Quote, originally posted by ZubenElGenubi »Okay, I've read and re-read this thread until I'm screwy in the head. (Thank you, Dr. Seuss!)Here's my question:If I were to upgrade my 6-speaker system like so: Replace Front Woofers with the woofer of a component system Replace Rear Woofers with 2-way co-axial.Would there be any problems besides reduction in volume? Even though I'd be replacing 2-ohm with 4-ohm speakers, I'm betting that the aftermarket speakers will have increased sensitivity.I'm looking at the Polk db650 or Infinity 6002si for the co-axials and the Polk db6500 or Infinity 6000cs for the woofer components.I have pretty much finisihed what you have discribed with my M&T package. Polk db6500 components in the front, and Polk db650 coaxials in the back. I followed the speaker install instructions posted cohocarl and things went pretty smooth. His speakers must have been a bit bigger though, because my 6.5 " would not fit directly in the back (after drilling out the old mounts), or in the front (by trying to reuse the mounts as he described). I bought a couple speaker conversion/mounting rings at circuit city, and they worked great. The sound is great, much more clear and crisp, but sounds a bit under driven with the M&T amp. Since the 200 watt M&T amp was powering 2 ohm speakers, what is the wattage rating for the new 4 ohms? I 'm think i will replace the amp when I install the new head unit.

[ZubenElGenubi]

Well, if the M&T amp is rated at 200w into 2ohms, it would be 100w into 4ohms. The real trick is finding out the power distribution per channel/speaker. I don't know if it's 50/50 Front and 50/50 Rear.

[tbm34]

Quote, originally posted by ZubenElGenubi »Well, if the M&T amp is rated at 200w into 2ohms, it would be 100w into 4ohms. The real trick is finding out the power distribution per channel/speaker. I don't know if it's 50/50 Front and 50/50 Rear.Thanks for the reply. So I'm now down to 100 watts. It gets even worse, because the current M&T amp has 6 channels, the two tweeters are wired to the amp separately, so it is probably a 40/40/20 split, which means I only have 20 watts each for the front and back now with my 4 ohm speakers. I'm now in the market for a new amp.