Horsepower Difference

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:37 am

I read on here that the '03 has 7 more HP than the '04 and the '05 will be even lower. Is that a "real" difference or just a calculation difference. If it is real, what is the reason - same motor, right?

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:09 am

Now I am even more confused. Went to the GM/Pontiac site and read where the base Vibe is 130 hp. Then looked at the window sticker from my 2003 Vibe and it says 130 hp.

Slimer · Post by **Slimer** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:20 am

Yeah, that's the GT motor. The Base will remain at 130, the GT has gone from 180 to 173 to 170. Now, to really bake your noodle: The HP of the Base Vibe is actually 140, but they understate it so owners of the entry-model Celica don't suspect that they're actually running the same mill as the Corolla, Matrix, and Vibe. But the actual HP output for the entry-level Vibe is actually 140. So, the GT only gets about 30hp more than the Base, which is pretty criminal when you consider how much more you pay for a GT. Add a Short Ram, a K&N air filter, and a chip to the base, you've got the same hp. Craazy.

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:29 am

eh.... i still don't know about that..... but then take that one step further and add a s/c that gets you to 166-170 hp, but 155 tq, and really you've only increased your gains by 26-30 hp after spending how much???? take the gt, add a cai, exhaust and chip.... and you are now about 215 hp and 150 tq.... and that'll be cheaper than the base plus cai, exhaust, chip and s/c. take a gt and get a f/i turbo then.... well, it's crazy! as long as you don't mind the potential for your engine blowing up! lol i'll stick to my original plan: cai, chip, and add exhaust and retune chip (when funds are available)really, i want a spoiler power moonroof and new wheels...

Roadpig · Post by **Roadpig** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:24 am

i'll stick to my original plan: cai, chip, and add exhaust and retune chip (when funds are available)Yeah I'll back all that! My plan excatly. Just got the exhaust about a week or so ago, now I need the time to install.CAI, at some point is next.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:56 pm

Still, 130 hp is 129 more than my great-grand dad had!

noginsk · Post by **noginsk** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:03 pm

Quote, originally posted by trdvibe Â»eh.... i still don't know about that..... but then take that one step further and add a s/c that gets you to 166-170 hp, but 155 tq, and really you've only increased your gains by 26-30 hp after spending how much???? take the gt, add a cai, exhaust and chip.... and you are now about 215 hp and 150 tq.... and that'll be cheaper than the base plus cai, exhaust, chip and s/c. Plus a GT will automatically come with a 6speed and four wheel disc bakes (I think). Adding mods to a base vibe still measn you have the 5speed and rear drums. The GT also has a much cooler leather wrapped steering wheel. I think lightly modded GT is a much better bargain than a heavily modded base.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:27 pm

Slimer, On a base, the best intake adds less than 10 hp (short ram a bit less) and a chip doesn't do much for peak power with an intake because part of how intakes make their increase is by getting the fuel air ratio right at the hp peak. Chips can help a lot more everywhere else in the power curve. Look at these 2 links. Using 14% driveline loss, the stock GT makes 42 more hp than base before intake and 46 more after. You won't get closer than 30 hp away with your mods compared to a stock GT. You may be a bit closer to a 04 gt but I understand that 04 GTs, like your base, are also a bit underated. We're talking from 20% to well over 30% more GT HP in any scenario you choose. Don't get me wrong, I very much like a base Vibe and they certainly get better gas milage. I just don't like the rationalizations. They are very different motors in both power and character. A base is slower in any gear and at any speed even when the gt is out of lift. The lower gearing of a GT (25%)more than compansates for the midrange torque difference. That's why we get a 6 speed. Both cars redline at about the same speed in the lower gears so this comparison is fare. Both great vehicles but there is a good reason that poeple pay extra for a GT and it's not the spec sheet. Faster, great feeling drivetrain(except clutch), firmer feel (shocks are different), antilock and better feeling brakes, and wheels. Most of us also like the leather bits inside ,fogs, and the nice sounds a GT makes but those had very little to do with my purchase.http://www.injen.com/webpages/...5.jpg http://www.injen.com/webpages/...5.jpg

noginsk · Post by **noginsk** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:37 pm

Quote, originally posted by goodvibe Â» Most of us also like the leather bits inside ,fogs, and the nice sounds a GT makes but those had very little to do with my purchase.http://www.injen.com/webpages/...5.jpg http://www.injen.com/webpages/...5.jpgWhat is the difference with the fog lights from a base to a GT?

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 9:45 pm

None, my bad.

blk182@n7 · Post by **blk182@n7** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:08 am

i would just like the GT to have more FT LBS if it ran @ 160 hp 150 ft lbs @ the wheels i would be happy....

Celtic_Curse · Post by **Celtic_Curse** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:16 am

IMHO having drivin both cars your right that each has it's own character, our torque figures are almost identical however the gt is a full second faster getting to 60 than the base however the s/c base is a full second faster to 60 than the gt. both cars are fun lets just worry about beating the Honda's that pull up beside you all riced out. Just my two cents.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:19 pm

Quote, originally posted by noginsk Â»What is the difference with the fog lights from a base to a GT?I also think they are the same, but fogs come standard on the GT. Also, 4 wheel disc brakes are only available on the GT. That was one of the selling points for me. I've found it MUCH easier to work on disc brakes than drums, but the problem with the GT's rear discs is that they have a drum setup in the hub for the parking brake. So you really don't win there from an ease of service standpoint.My question about all this, and getting back to the point of this thread, is can you fairly easily "de-smog" the GT engine on the 04 and 05 models to bring the HP up to the specs of the 03?

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:25 pm

Quote, originally posted by Stang2Vibe Â»I also think they are the same, but fogs come standard on the GT. Briefly, fogs are standard across the board. Can't get a Vibe without them!Back on topic.

Kissfan79 · Post by **Kissfan79** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:55 pm

I personally haven't seen any hard 0-60 times posted for a S/C base Vibe, but according to the numbers put out by Toyota comparing the Matrix XRS to a S/C XR, their 0-60 times were about even. I could be wrong and I am trying to find that comparison they posted. I think that the S/C base being a full second faster to 60 is a bit of a stretch.UPDATE: This isn't the link I was looking for, but I did find this: http://cars.ign.com/articles/454/454602p2.html Jim

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:12 pm

Car and driver did a 7.5 sec. 0-60 with an stock Matrix XRS and Motor Trend did about the same with a GT with a 15.7 quarter. http://monkeywrenchracing.com/...i.htm I've seen low 7s from people that that don't mind hitting the rev limiter with CAIs. No SC has done better than this so far. Would you buy an SC off the showroom floor if Toyota told you it wouldn't beat an XRS to 60 or the 1/4 but costs more, gets worse mileage and has less equipment. The SC torque is great around town, more driveable in certain situations and you can have an auto but it isn't faster in a straight line race. The stock Vibe is great and the SC is a wonderful way to to make it even better later or instantly if you have an auto, it just isn't faster with the times we have at hand. Maybe as the Gt keeps losing power, the SC will show an advantage.

Kissfan79 · Post by **Kissfan79** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:29 am

Has anyone seen a 0-60 or 1/4 time for a S/C XR with a manual? I'm curious to see how much of a difference the manual would make.Jim

Celtic_Curse · Post by **Celtic_Curse** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:49 pm

My numbers come from this car and driver article that I'm hoping is correct. They strapped on the matrix S/c to a celica gt they are calling it a trd celica, they produced numbers that were a full second faster than the gts celica from 0-60 with same mods just no S/c so if you take the math to the vibes then that should translate across. The gt was a five speed vs. Celica gt-s 6 speed.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:38 pm

I didn't see the article but I doubt it was a stock install. the ECU harness is different and they wouldn't be able to use the included fuel piggyback. With better fuel management than the over rich stock unit the difference between the motors is greater. Things like CAIs and exhaust also help blown motors more, making the difference greater again. These extras wouldn't however fit into the SC vs GT debate especially when you consider the cost of custom tuning required for optimum results. There is no question that you can get more from a blown 1zz than a stock 2zz, maybe even more than a blown 2zz. The question is whether there is more go from the factory install and until someone sets a time we won't know. If somebody with a G-tec can do close to a 7 flat, I will believe that it is definately faster to 60 than a GT. I know of of a XRS that did a 7.1 with CAI under the same circumstance. It's hard to find a 2zz that runs times without a CAI and a $200 intake on a GT still fits in pricewise. They don't work well on an SC without a chip and tune.

slickshoes · Post by **slickshoes** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:35 am

good vibe, is the trd exhaust gains factored out from thos dyno tests for the cai test on the wrx/gt, i saw the xr/base dynos only had the cai with no aftermarket exhaust. i have the strangest feeling i asked this question before.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:06 am

I'ld answer but I don't get the question. Does Pontiac even have the SC for a manual Vibe yet and it seems that most who bring it up are never going to get it anyway. For those with autos that have, I applaud you on a wise decision and I do feel it is a wonderful upgrade if you already own a base Vibe.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:52 am

for your info, go to http://www.trdusa.com:click on "parts in detail", "TRD supercharger", "1.8 liter supercharer", "acceleration time".Manual ..........XR S/C...XRstock...XRS0-60.....7.5.....9.5 ....... 8.1 1/4time..15.9...17.1.... 16.5 1/4MPH..86.5...81.7.... 86.7 Automatic .............XR S/C....XRstock....Celica GTS* 0-60........9.0........10.8........6.9 1/4time.. 16.9........18.0......15.3 1/4MPH.. 82.5.........78.6.....92.8 These are conservative numbers, I have already clock sub 8.5 on my vibe s/c auto. most publications posts mid 7s for XRS. but the numbers are good for comparison purposes. like XR S/C is faster by half a second than XRS, but 1/4 speed is the same. which mean XRS is better on the top end.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:13 am

I know that TRD has always said that the SC is faster to 60. It's just another claim from an after market supplier that sells the SC. They actually don't make anything and aren't owned by Toyota. They 'job out' and it would be advantagous for them to have the SC be faster. It's easy to get kinda valid slow times from GTs. I would like to see just ONE hot time for a stock SC before the whole GT vs SC debate starts again. It's pure speculation and I'm sure they are close. I nor anyone else has got anything definitive on a manual SCs speed and shouldn't be making claims. I've only stated the equipment vs price issue in regards to 2 different but similarly fast vehicles. I never said an SC was slower, just not faster in a straight line until proven. I've driven an auto SC and was neither blown away nor disappointed. Nice car if you want an auto.

slickshoes · Post by **slickshoes** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:23 pm

on the 2 links u provided about the CAI, the dyno tests showed that the XRS had an aftermarket exhaust paired with the INJEN CAI, but on the XR it only had the INJEN CAI and no aftermarket exhaust on it. my question is how can that dyno test be accurate? both cars did not have the same exhaust on them paired with the CAI. anyways i am thinking of fixen this car up moderatly then giving it to my lil sister, and i'll get an evo or srt4 or somethin. i just see the vibe ending up in a dead end.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:16 am

Now I get it. I just wanted to show that a GT gained more than a base from a CAI. The final numbers are going to be a few HP high on the 2zz dyno compared to no exhaust but the gain will be the same within 1 hp or so. That particular exhaust does more for sound than output. The relative before and after CAI differences on the individual cars are all that matters anyway. Im sure those tests were taken on different days and conditions and comparing the final #s between the 2 cars could be misleading.

Celtic_Curse · Post by **Celtic_Curse** » Mon May 03, 2004 3:27 pm

Quote, originally posted by goodvibe Â»I didn't see the article but I doubt it was a stock install. the ECU harness is different and they wouldn't be able to use the included fuel piggyback. With better fuel management than the over rich stock unit the difference between the motors is greater. Things like CAIs and exhaust also help blown motors more, making the difference greater again. These extras wouldn't however fit into the SC vs GT debate especially when you consider the cost of custom tuning required for optimum results. There is no question that you can get more from a blown 1zz than a stock 2zz, maybe even more than a blown 2zz. The question is whether there is more go from the factory install and until someone sets a time we won't know. If somebody with a G-tec can do close to a 7 flat, I will believe that it is definately faster to 60 than a GT. I know of of a XRS that did a 7.1 with CAI under the same circumstance. It's hard to find a 2zz that runs times without a CAI and a $200 intake on a GT still fits in pricewise. They don't work well on an SC without a chip and tune.They were saying in the article they had figured the wiring out and wasn't too hard to do, of coarse this was Trd doing the work on the car so they could of done whatever prototyping they needed. They were talking about applying it to the corrolla aswell.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Mon May 03, 2004 10:01 pm

Agreed. Prototype vs production. Larry makes a lot more power than other SCs. Toyota requires changes for warranty, emissions and keeping the CAT at temp that costs power but leaves room for big gains with the blower with new fuel control and bolt-ons etc. If Larry had a stick I wouldn't even be close with my GT.

Kissfan79 · Post by **Kissfan79** » Mon May 03, 2004 11:21 pm

Also.....you have to remember...most publications put the GT 0-60 around 7.3-7.5 seconds. I would really like to see a comparison done (magazine comparison would be great) between a GT Vibe and a Base Vibe S/C with auto and manual. That would be the shiz-nit! Jim

futseal04 · Post by **futseal04** » Wed May 26, 2004 3:10 am

on those dyno numbers...they were at the wheels, so add 15-20% for flywheel numbers, which is what the factory uses.

Horsepower Difference

Horsepower Difference

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