Typical life of a hydraulic clutch? GT

[QUIKAG]

Good point, Madbill. I don't think anythings wrong with the clutch/tranmission, it's just kind of annoying that it's so hard to drive smoothly, I feel incompetent sometimes.

[TrojanGT]

Incompetent, eh?You know, you folks have made for some increased harmony in married life! So it isn't just the way my husband drives!!!! Here I've been picking at him for not being able to accelerate smoothly, etc., etc., etc.... It makes it even harder since we're babying the heck out of the clutch!I've tried hard to shift smoothly, too, finding it a little difficult, but just wrote it off to being different from my 20+ years in little Hondas (18 years with a 1.3 liter engine) - what a difference!It's nice to know just HE and ME are klutzes, but everyone! I'll quit picking on my husband for a little now... Dawn

[TrojanGT]

Hi guys:Looking at some serious smoke, and I'm in LA proper. This brush fire situation out here is just unbelievable...Hey, I just got a "last chance" letter from Pontiac about extending the warranty another 54K miles (or something like that). INTERESTINGLY enough, it states essentially that the transmission repairs EVEN DUE TO NORMAL WEAR AND TEAR would be covered. They want like $2000 for top'o the line coverage- includes all kinds of junk... pretty much everything except the tires. I'm almost considering it, given the still-continuing clutch smell that wafts up on a regular basis...Has anyone else tried under processing a clutch the extended warranty?Pray for rain...Mahalo,Dawn

[RcRacer440]

I have a little less than 13,000 miles on my GT. Today I went to start quick to get in front of a car, I let the clutch out like normal and press the gas and it barely goes anywhere so I have to put back in the clutch and let it out again to grip. Its never happened before and it happened 2 times today and smells for hours really bad. I dunno if I need a new clutch or what.

[mkosem]

There is no reason at all for a clutch to have that short of a life. The clutch on my saturn(ran 15.8 in the 1/4) lasted to 183k miles. And it wasn't driven gently either. Granted most of those were highway miles but 30k --Matt

[joatmon]

It sounds almost like the pressure plate is weak, or something is sticking and the clutch pad is not being clamped against the flywheel with enough force. Supposedly GM and Toyota are looking at the problem, which means that they are aware that GT and XRS owners are having these problems. Now, if only the dealers would be willing to do clutch work on these as warranty work. instead of treating it as a "wear item" and making the owner pay. Hopefully GM/Toyota will figure it out and step up to their responsibility before too many people end up having to buy a new clutch with their own money

[Kissfan79]

Let's hope it is soon. I have almost 25,000 miles on my GT. I figure at my current rate, I will void my warranty via mileage in May .Jim

[Roadpig]

Does anyone know if GM or Toyota have reached any conclusions regarding this problem? Just curious.

[NSimkins]

Quote, originally posted by Roadpig »Does anyone know if GM or Toyota have reached any conclusions regarding this problem? Just curious.I'll find out some information soon and post updates.

[HIGHREV2]

I logged on tonight because it is my GT's 1st birthday. This post caught my eye. I am also HIGHREV but cannot find my login info and my old e-mail is screwed up so I re-enlisted to get in on this post.I work for a dealer, sorry not a Pontiac dealer. I work at a John Deere construction dealership. I know its not the same but it is close. I can give some great input coming from the other side of the table. I am actually the Service Administrator. What I do is receive and schedule service calls, pay jobs, rental calls and the warranty calls.Most of what we have is hydraulic based systems. Based on reading this whole post. There are some big variables here. Slipping is always bad, It creates bad heat, heat accelerates wear. We call it the quick ride in the spiral. As each thing increases (heat and slipping) the problem gets worse quicker. The speed of the failure is bad. I rev a little then release the clutch and give it gas. My 4 year old noticed it "daddy why do you vroom vroom when you go and mommy doesn't" My reply was that mommy is not used to daddys car, In fact my wife apologized for wrecking my car. She took it to work one day and said it smelled funny and she knew it was bad. I have driven with her and she rev's way too high and lets the pedal out too slow. Being a good husband I keep quiet and offer to drive at the next chance.Second thing "stalling and lugging" when you are in too high of a gear and too low and rpm the car lugs or chugs, sometimes stalls. oops my wifes second complaint. This is bad, this puts a tremendous strain on the clutch, a good one should stall the car. The thing people do to correct this is slip the clutch Slipping is bad. I noticed that when my wife drives the car she shifts very early (1500-2000). this is high for a normal car, but the GT is a high speed engine with a trans to match. She is shifting based on sound (how I taught her). Inherent issue with all VIBE/MATRIX very noisy engine. So it sound like it is time to shift. I normally shift between 3000-5000 rpm . When she shift this way on flats it is ok, on a hill car lugs. When i drive I have found I can rev high and shift easy. I also find this gearbox very easy to shift with out the clutch. I do this every day and hope it extends the lifr of my clutch. This noise and shift point is a trait of this car, I imagine that the celica GTS is the same. It does require a different approach to driving. If you are into Formula 1 you will enjoy the scream of the engine as you pull through each gear (i hear that in my sleep) if you are a normal person you might here the quietness of a Lexus in your sleep. A co-worker had a honda S2000 and said when he let friends drive it and they said this car isn't fast. He said they were shifting way too early and never hitting the good power. He drove ny car and was able to drive it well.I guess the point of my rambling is that this car is very different from other cars. Not many people understand that. Unfortunatly that lack of knowledge may lead to premature failure. In fact the dealership I bought my car from had no idea. The salesman had no idea how the engine worked. On the test drive he never brought the car over 3000 rpm. Hopefully Toyota & Pontiac can make the appropriate adjustments to correct the problem before the car gets a bad rep.One thing I know is that when the factory (John Deere) request the parts back from a warranty job, They know there is an issue and they want to do a failure analasis. I am sure that is why they requested TrojanGT's parts back. Shipping parts back costs money and they don't do it to make the customer feel better.

[mrgrn]

i agree with high here. i power shift up and down almost 70% of the time with no problems. I don't shift at 2krpms, i shift at like 4-6k rpms, i'm used to my bike. The only problem is on a incline taking off, very week clutch IMHO. The other thing i do is i only push the clutch in a whisker when upshifting if not power shifting, this will help with the wear and make for less wear on the drivetrain. I also blip the gas alot when downshifting with the clutch and without. it takes practice but it will come with time.

[TrojanGT]

Hi folks:Thanks for the info, Highrev! My husband and I have been DISCUSSING (ha!) how I should be shifting. Suspect your wife and I have much in common on the "feel" of how to shift. Reading your numbers has been enlightening - I shift much earlier than you do, for certain, and being girly, don't like to "pop" the clutch in and out.Funny, over the holidays I had the chance to meet another GT owner at a party, and he and my husband went for a ride in his 7000 mile GT (our car's twin, in monotone black, too). Steve, a very particular car enthusiast and technical person by trade, mentioned that this clutch should either be in or out, and sided with my husband that PERHAPS I might ride the clutch a bit -- which if you don't do any easing in and out, would probably fit the description. While I don't ride with my foot on the clutch in general; in city driving, well, there's a little more easing than the car was made to do? My husband has driven the car probably 85% of the time since we had the new clutch put in and sent the old clutch back to Jeff & Co. I drove on Christmas Eve through heavy traffic, and we weren't even half the way to Grandma's house (60 miles total) when we realized (on an uphill wait for the Santa Monica freeway onramp) that yes, I was frying the clutch again. Not a pretty smell... But please note that even before Christmas Eve, I began to sense that perhaps we are moving towards ANOTHER new clutch... and it has been perhaps only 12,000 miles this time? I think the car is nearing 42k miles. It will be 2 years old in April.I guess I have a bit of New Year's followup to do with the Pontiac folks... things haven't been solved to my satisfaction with the last clutch replacement, and frankly, we chose not to extend the warranty simply because the attitude of the dealership was that the clutch issue was wholly our fault (and they were doing US a favor. PuLEEEZE!) Don't get me wrong - Jeff and company have been very helpful. However, the dealership (even though I think this one is a good one) definitely has some issues. I'm torn between blowing off the dealership and working strictly with our independent Toyota-based mechanic, and continuing the fight with the dealership/Pontiac (Toyota). It sure would be easier to walk away, but it is such a great car. Steve has every intention of selling his GT though it runs great, because he doesn't want to get into the hassle of all of this, knowing it lies down the road (no pun intended). It's hard for me to believe, but then again, new clutches and the eternity it takes for the dealership to do the work is hardly worth the hassle, either.Hmmm.... Happy New Year?!Mahalo,Dawn

[goodvibe]

In any shift other than starting in first, the clutch should be used like a switch. Your dealer actually did you a favor and I'm happy since they do wear faster than they should but 2 clutches in this car should account for at least a normal life of a clutch in another. I know someone that burned up an Isuzu trooper clutch in about 40k mi. Pulled 2nd with his left foot. His new CRV is an auto.

[ragingfish]

Wow, I think this is probably one of the longest surviving threads! LOL!Keeps dying and then being resurrected...

[dmitri]

i usually rev to around 3000 and drop the clutch while giving it a little more gas, i never wind the clutch out. When i race, i wind the clutch out more because i drop at around 5000, and dont want to spin. I find it effective and i get off the line very well. Beats many all motor civic hatchbacks. Last week at ave p (north jersey street racing spot) in newark i raced a 94 hatch with a LS/Vtec block and the b16 head. His Vtec was lowered and he had all the bolt ons. I beat him by about a foot with perfect shifts and he had 2 other people in his car. Without the people he pulled on me alot harder.

[TrojanGT]

Couldn't resist after reading Ragingfish's comment :-)Actually, a new question, clutch related: Now we're hearing (and feeling) a pretty definite "clunk" when the engine engages (complete release of clutch). I hadn't driven with my husband in a bit, and over the weekend, we noticed the sound was pretty distinct in the lower gears... and BTW, we're at about 44k miles now (GT will be 2 years old in early April).Guess we'll be taking it to Sierra for that free 45k oil change very soon, and will see what they have to say about that new noise (what, another clutch?)... Any words of wisdom, folks? Anything I should be on the lookout for or keep my ears open about?Mahalo,Dawn

[Psychobroker]

Might be the flywheel, which they should have resurfaced/replaced when they replaced your clutch.

[joatmon]

does it just clunk when you releawe the clutch? How about if you accelearte a little, and then let off the gas and let the engine slow the car, then accelerate again, does it do it then too?

[Kissfan79]

I have noticed mine does that a bit. If you acelerate and then let off of the gas and then accelerate again, it gives a little clunk......not too loud or noticable....but you can detect it. If when I accelerate again slowly, I don't notice it. It happens when I give accelerate faster.Jim

[TrojanGT]

Hey all:Sorry, haven't logged on for a while. We took our Vibe to our private Toyota mechanic (gave up, just couldn't get it the hour out to Sierra) for the oil change and to investigate the intermittent "clunk."Go figure. Somewhere along the line an engine bolt (nut?) fell off, and the entire ENGINE was shifting, hence the poor engagement (clunk). Tad fixed the loose screw (so to speak) and we haven't had any issues in the intervening week.Is this a common error?Mahalo,Dawn

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by TrojanGT »Is this a common error?I sure hope not!Maybe the dealer didn't torque it down right on one fo the clutch replacements.

[HIGHREV2]

It is likely that a bolt loosened from the previous repair.You know not exactly loose and not exactly tight. With time and vibration, oops there it goes.

[syclnjr]

Hey there all I am pretty new to Genvibe since I jsut purchased my 04 about a month ago. Well lets just say I made my first payment yesterday. Woo hoo anyway. I am a car freak mosty mini trucks but now that I have my Vibe too I am inclined to tune it also. But anywayI stumbled accross this great site and this thread that is never ending. So I get a little worried when I start reading, as I smelt the clutch once as of right nowand I have a little over 1400 miles. on it. Now after the two days that it took toread the whole thread I call my dealer and tell them the issue that I am worried about about the premature clutch wear and that I really don't want to worry about the darn thing going out on me down the road. After fifteen or so phones calls later, me demanding Pontiacs number, which I never got, having the general manager call me one evening. I think that I have the problem licked as far as if my clutch goes out in the warranty period the dealer is going to cover its replacement, if it goes out within the 36,000 mile coverage area. Now this is a message that I got on my machine from the warranty division and I have yet to recieve another call back when I returned there call. And all that is said in this thread is that I never got Pontiacs number from my dealer, which is fine I can get that myself. But I am going to make an attempt on my end to see who I can talk to about this. I am definitely not going to fall by the waist side at all. Sorry for the rambling I just thought that I would relate to you all what I have called my dealer about and what I have so called gotten cleared up or not cleared up about warrantying the clutch if it goes out. I have in fact talked with the service manager here, he is friend of a friend, about it and he says that he has yet to see one with this problem, but he has also told me that I have one of the only GT's in the area from what he has seen. Which I think is pretty damn cool.And with all the so called *****ing that I did do to the warranty dept, gen manager, salesman and Pontiac soon to come I get all the parts for the Vibe at the dealer cost. Which I think is pretty damn cool. Being that I live in Michigan and those of us that live here now that when it snows it snows but I wanted the all weather package that they sell. Via Pontiac.com they say that it is 300 bucks, I can get it for 140. I thought that was pretty cool.Ok enough already I am just making this thread longer and longer. But the jist of this is is that I wanted to thank all of you here for helping everyone out in letting us know about the problems that we face. I will let you know what happens when I talk to Pontiac about this issue. Thanks for listening to my bable, later

[goodvibe]

Gee, one long post with no problems. I'm all ready to give you whatever you want. As hitchhikers guide says 'Don't Panic'. There are GT's out there with over 50K mi. on the original clutch. If you drive it right or don't race, it will easily last through the warranty. Get an extended warranty that will cover it if your really worried. It's not a strong clutch but 36k mi isn't going to be a problem for most of us. If you've got any agreement with the dealer, have it in writing or it wont mean much if you need it.

[noginsk]

Just finished reading this thread and I am a little concerned. My wife and I aown a base '04 and sometimes smell that clutch burn smell. We have about 12,000 miles on it and the clutch engagement feels more "loose". This is the first stick I have driven, so can't compare with others, but still....Has anyone with a base vibe/manual had a problem with their clutch?

[AKLGT]

the new car break in takes awhile to get used to the clutch. that 's normal to smell it at first. but if after a year and you're still smelling it, then there could be a problem. from my understanding the clutch issue has only affected a handful of owners and it's strictly confined to the GT and GTS owners. Different engine and clutch i believe.

[joatmon]

I haven't noticed any significant change in my base/5speed clutch, other than i am more used to it than when I first got it. I have gotten a burning clutch smell a few times, but I can directly attribute them to my own errors, once in frustration at stalling it I raced the engine too much and let the clutch out too slow. Like trdvibe said, clutch reliability hasn't been an issue with the 5 speed. The issues in this thread have all been with the GT so far. Doesn't mean you can't have a problem with the base, but reading this thread shouldn't make you concerned about the reliability of the clutch in your base.How often do you get that smell, and does it coincide with any particular driving event? You can take it back to a dealer to get it checked out, but you can expect a dealer to blame any premature clutch wear on improper shifitng technique.

[noginsk]

Hey joatmon, I get that smell more than I like to. I am finding that the vibe was easier to drive at first, but now is more difficult, especially on hillstops/starts. I have noticed it going in reverse too, but again that was up a hill. This is the first car with a manual that I have consistently driven for more than like a month, so I'm sure my skill isn't helping at all. If I took it in to a dealer, I wouldn't have to pay for it to get looked at because it has only 12,000 miles on it? (warranty?)

[armin]

Hi thank you for your info. I live here in Northville MI and my GT clutch is smoking when ever I dont baby it. Darn sad. Takes the fun right out of it. My VW rabbit GTI and Ford Probe GT never had that problem way after 150k. but anyway where did you get the winter package for only 140thanksarmin

[AKLGT]

how many miles do you have on your gt if it's doing that???

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by noginsk »If I took it in to a dealer, I wouldn't have to pay for it to get looked at because it has only 12,000 miles on it? (warranty?)huy397 asked that in http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=8227, seems like the answer was that they can't charge you for looking at it if you're still under warranty.

[armin]

I just finished 11k on my GT. But I change gears and start at the stop light carefully. In the winter with wet and snow on the I had a few times that the clutch grabbed so hard that the weels spun around. I guess thats a good sign. my first replay was on 9/9/03 with 5000 miles. Then it really smoked a lot. I read your posts and now I gess you are not so worried about the smelling and smoking of the clutch anymore. I almost have my car a year now and I noticed the smell less now. I drive like an old man now...

[AKLGT]

ya, not as worried now... just know that when it's time to replace it... sooner than later most likely, will be w/ a performance clutch. same thing w/ the brakes. will upgrade as needed.

[syclnjr]

Hey Armin the 140 is the price that the dealer gave me in conjuction with my purchase. They pretty much will give me the accessories at there cost. They are in Grand Rapids.But anyway I have alittle over 2000 miles on my Vibe and I have yet to smell the clutch again. Of course I am not holeshotting it off the line either. If I think that I am going to race someone if that ever comes about I will start off slow in first having the clutch fully released and then mash the gas. Not too great off the line but at least it is saving my clutch abit. At leat I would hope.Now having to baby it is pretty ridiculous. I personally bought my GT for the excitement of driving it like I want to, you know what I mean. I am not sure why the dealers just can't upgrade the darn thing as people are having problems with them. I know that if mine goes out and if they cover it or not I am going to research and find the best al around clutch out there, i.e. drivability and race ability and have them put it iin. That is what they should be doing anyway. Well there is my 2 cents. Later

[blk182@n7]

I might ask the dealer about it but i will most likly just replace the clutch with a performance aftermarket the day its avilable. . ..

[RcRacer440]

I have 20K on my gt now and for the last 4K my clutch hasn't gripped at all unless I'm in high rpms. When I'm in the 3-6 gear and I hit the gas the rpms fly up and the car goes nowhere. I took it to the dealer and they said theres no way its under warranty and that it would be 800 bucks to fix it. I think I'm just gonna get an ACT Clutch and flywheel.

[DjDoubleLP]

Wow.........long post. Well I have 65,000km on my XRS......not a single issue with the clutch. I have no problems with starting on hills etc. The only thing I do not like is that I have to put the pedal all the way down to shift......but that is a good thing because then it is properly engaging. I read that some people are having clutch issues......and some have had to get there clutch replaced twice within a year. And I have also noticed that a lot of people are first time owners of a standard. There are many different factors that can contribute to a bad clutch. The unfortunate part is that a clutch is a "normal wear" item and more then likely will not be covered under warranty. Lets just hope that Toyota/Pontiac will do something about it if it becomes more of an issue. I would not be complaining if they recalled my car for a new clutch.

[goodvibe]

At least you still have a warranty. The Vibes runs out at 36k mi. I'm close to 30k now and still fine but I know it's not a 100k clutch which any modern clutch should be.

[JohnS]

Thanks for this thread. I'm now having the same clutch problem as everyone else at 42K miles. I actually noticed something around 30-35 K but my wife mostly drives the car so I don't get a chance to use it much. Even though I have extended warranty, they say it's not covered. It's about $900.00. My past experince with clutches have lasted about 95K, so this seems a bit low as far as clutches are concerned.I'll try to contact Pontiac but has anyone heard from them on this, or have any new info.Thanks,John (6/7/04)

[AKLGT]

glad to see another new member post. sorry you are having clutch issues. but seems that our clutches on the GT models are dying pretty early. i myself plan on replacing w/ a performance clutch of some kind depending on what's available at the time it does go. most likely will stick w/ the TRD perf clutch. i can get it for about $300 or so.... and my cousin is a mechanic and will help me install it.

[TrojanGT]

Hmm... what I find bizarre about the "extended warranty" they tried to sell me was just how specifically it claims to include "normal wear items" including (and I threw the stuff away months ago, so don't hold me to this) the transmission. Last time I checked, I thought the clutch was a major part of the transmission.While we are getting up there, past the 50,000 mark, we have learned to baby the clutch and haven't had to put a second clutch in (yet). However, it isn't hard to get a whiff of that lovely burning clutch smell if you aren't paying attention to your driving...And I soooo agree. My mechanic thought my CRX clutch was weak, and I got at least 80,000 out of each of those! (and I had that car a long, long time... don't get me started!)Mahalo,Dawn

[eh_clark]

56,000 and no clutch problems yet. It must be an adjustment issue at the factory. Good luck to those of you who have to deal with that headache.

[AKLGT]

well that is good news. i also understand that djdoublelp is also running into clutch probs on his xrs trix.

[dsegundo]

I think it's pretty much to say that no one's going to the stock clutch when those burn out huh? What are the different perf. clutch's available? btw: Awww....Lookit' Hope's picture. Mavrik and TRD, sittin in a tree....

[Evanshall]

Qeustion? what RPMs are you guys all criusing at in regular driving, i try to keep it under 2500 and i have had not problems with car at 20k mark, but 20k isnt that much !!i know its slippe da few times, but in general with 20k+ miles on it already i can still if i want pop the clutch and get some good wheel squilin going, but after reading this i dont think i want to try any more wheel squaling hehe, i like my clutch working properlyi have only made the clutch smell bad once, well in reverse, about 1/2 engaged 4000+ rpms, uphill, which i would qeuss is the completly wrong way to use a clutch, that was about the 3rd day i drove the car hehe on the bright side, i qeuss this means ill be NEEDING a performance clutch sooner then expected

[JohnS]

I've been trying to get some kind of response from Pontiac but they won't call me back.I've left very curteous messages. I told them:"If there is no pending clutch issue being considered, just leave me a quick message and let me no. I really don't care, just let me know ASAP. The car is becoming less drivable and the dealer keeps calling me about the repairs"But they still don't call me back. Anyone recomend a replacement? I really don't feel like shelling aout $900+ for a clutch that may very well wear out in another year. Thanks,Johnp.s. we drive the car at around 3K RPMs

[JohnS]

I felt I should provide an update on what happened with my clutch. I called the number in this forum at GM and never received a call or email back. My messages were very cordial and I simple stated, "If there is no known issue concerning the Vibe's clutch from GM, just send me an email and let me know. I'll just then pay for the repair. You don't even have to call me, just send me a quick email." I must have called every week for 4 weeks. I was very patient and they never called me back.So I called again and didn't dial the specific person that was listed in this forum. I got someone else. She was very nice and tried her best to help me out with the cost. She even called the dealer but they wouldn't budge. So I went out and had someone else to the work for $400 less than the dealer wanted. So, there ya go. GM doesn't consider the clutch being an issue, although I keep hearing about it from people on this site.

[Cubanpete]

If clutch is not abused, you should get 100,000 Kilometres......60,000 miles

[Dezz1]

Dawn, I agree with you on the normal wear and tear claims, and that the clutch is a major part of the transmission, however, that is normal wear and tear regarding defects in the product (in which it usually is), and if you are laying rubber at intersections and drag strips, what should one expect. In addition, it was said earlier, it could be a clutch adjustment problem. If that is proven then I am sure the dealer would be more than unhappy to replace it for free.Currently I am at 35000 miles, and I have smelled clutch burn once, when the technician was pulling my car into the bay for an oil change. He could not drive a manual well.

[Dezz1]

60,000 miles, your kidding right. I hope that it lasts longer than that. Back in the day I had a Jetta, and the clutch lasted 115,000 miles. If the clutch expectancy is about 60 thousand, I better start saving up now.