down for the count!!!!!

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:27 am

So there I was... (every good story starts with that opener)Driving home today from school to do some banking, sign my tax forms, run a few errands, and then to head back to school. Well, I get on the Express way, and I'm in second. I merged onto Southbound I-75 and started to hit lift in 2nd gear. Here's where the fun starts... Everything is going normally until I reach about 7,000 RPMs and then SMACK. I thought I hit the Rev-Limitter a little early, but my car was WAY warm enough. And besides, it sounded like something was grinding instead of just the normal popping you would hear if it was the Rev-limiter. So I was like (removed)? I let go of the gas, shifted into 4th, got up to 75 and started driving. I turned down the radio to see if I could hear anything unusual. Everything was fine for about a mile until my engine starts making all kinds of noises and I start loosing power. So I pull off to the side of the road and sit.I called GM roadside, and they were VERY helpful. They even said they will tow my car to my dealership of purchase because it was only 10 more miles outside of their free-towing radius. I waited pretty much exactly what they said I would, which was only 45 minutes. So all in all, I have no idea what is wrong with my car for sure yet... or how much it will cost if my warranty is voided due to mods.AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

rasermon · Post by **rasermon** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:45 am

Brian, sorry to hear that man. At first I thought you was going to say you had a accident with the snow we had last night.Keep us posted and good luck.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:47 am

Hope it all works out for you, doesn't sound to good... maybe something let go in the trans that isn't changed from mods

millster · Post by **millster** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:55 am

Ooh! Hope all is well. Keep us posted on the findings.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:59 am

Quote, originally posted by millster Â»Ooh! Hope all is well. Keep us posted on the findings.Yeah, will do... My dad knows the right people at the dealership, so he went in there on his way home from work to see what can be done about looking past the mods and sticking with the warranty. I don't think it has anything to do with the mods I've put on there, but we'll see what they say

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:07 am

Brian, You have one mod thats notorious for causing oil pump failures. It's always debateable but underdrive pulleys dont have the resonance damper of the stock unit and somehow stresses the oil pump. http://newcelica.org/forums/sh...lleys If it's your oil pump, your pulley caused it. I hope you get it fixed under warranty and the dealer hasn't heard of this. If you could have changed the pulley back before repair you may have been better off. I would try to work something out with the dealer before a regional guy shows up. Hope it works out.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:44 am

Quote, originally posted by goodvibe Â»Brian, You have one mod thats notorious for causing oil pump failures.Wish I had known that earlier. Thanks for the heads up... I'll see what I can do

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:05 am

good to know. i've always wondered about those pulleys and what they actually do. but i think i'll wait on that....

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:42 am

Brian, sorry to hear about your troubles. Do you have the underdrive pulleys? I made up my mind a long time ago that if I got the GT, I really wouldn't do any mechanical mods to the motor. That's why I have stuck with the CAI and exhaust. I hope they don't try and void your warranty. Keep us posted. I also hope you can make it to the Michigan meet this summer.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:14 am

Quote, originally posted by Triton GT Â» I also hope you can make it to the Michigan meet this summer.I'd be there if I had to walk to it. But yes, I do have the pulleys. I've yet to hear back from the dealer also. THIS SUCKS. I want my car back!

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:25 pm

so I got a call today from my dad, who has been working with the dealership along with our old friend Jeff. Seems as though I get to go home today (granted I can find a ride) and get a loaner car until mine is ready. They still aren't totally positive what happened, but thats why Jeff is there looking at my baby.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:46 pm

Any word yet on your baby?

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:57 am

yikes, sure hope it doesn't turn out to be the pulley! think they will help cover that?

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 12:23 am

Quote, originally posted by Mavrik Â»Any word yet on your baby?Haven't really heard back from them yet, I feel this is going to be a long vacation away from the Vibe. I already miss it.Anyhow, at least they gave me an 03 Grand Am to drive, so I'm not totally without.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:08 am

They have not been in touch with you? Then again its the weekend so probably not open. Hope you find out by monday. And hope they cover the repair.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:58 pm

I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya and hope for the best!

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:39 am

Ok, so here's the deal. It is DEFINATELY the oil pump that failed. Luckily for me, they are doing the work under warranty, so I face no charges. I guess I should have my baby home safely sometime by the end of this week. My dad said by Wednesday, but I'll keep my fingers crossed.Here's the good news. Apparently, NO DAMAGE to the engine. It seems as if the engine realizes it wasn't getting the proper amount of oil, so it started to run in a "safe mode" which is why I started feeling the loss of power right before I shut my car down. This is what Jeff Strausser told him anyway. Some of you guys might know who I'm talking about. YES, I WILL BE PUTTING THE HARMONIC BALANCER BACK ON!!!!

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:32 am

Lift is actuated by oil pressure so the failure would shut down lift before anything else. More like unsafe mode. After that the ECU is pretty smart and has safe modes. The oil pump kind of explodes on failure so there is a lot of metal in there right now. The crank bearings are also worth taking a look at since the ur pully also effects these though you probably can't see all of them without a tear down. I'm glad this is working out for you. I hope the fix is simple and with no suprises.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:16 am

Well, After 20 days of waiting, I finally got my car back. They had to replace the engine, and I guess they replaced the entire thing because I saw my old engine with everything still attached sitting on the floor at the dealership. It's nice to have my car back, thats for sure.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:18 am

congrats on being a viber again. Starting to sound pretty convincing that the underdrive pulleys are bad news for these cars big time

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:21 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â» Starting to sound pretty convincing that the underdrive pulleys are bad news for these cars big timeoh it was definately the oil pump that went out on the old engine... considering they found pieces of it in the engine block. This is supposedly the biggest problem with the underdrive pulleys, vibrating the crap out of your oil pump.

millster · Post by **millster** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:35 am

I'm just disappointed that people seem to have to find out the hard way. I've said it several times and it was just dismissed as speculation. Either way, glad you're back behind the wheel Pablo.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:19 am

I wasn't discounting your warning as mere speculation, was just trying to highlight the risk the pulleys bring.maybe I shoulda worded it differently

millster · Post by **millster** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:42 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»I wasn't discounting your warning as mere speculation, was just trying to highlight the risk the pulleys bring.maybe I shoulda worded it differentlyNo, I know you weren't. I'm talking about conversations along these lines in the past.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:15 am

So I guess we have to wait for someone to make a properly balanced set of pulleys before we put them on our Vibes/Matrixes? This is really bad! Pablo, did you try to tell the manufacturer of your aftermarket pulleys that this happened? Not to blame them or anything, just to let them know that their product is causing engine fatalities on these cars. If they get the same result from other sets they sell and are told about it, they may correct them or stop offering them for these engines.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:35 pm

Quote, originally posted by Stang2Vibe Â»Pablo, did you try to tell the manufacturer of your aftermarket pulleys that this happened? Not to blame them or anything, just to let them know that their product is causing engine fatalities on these cars. I was thinking I would make a mold of my middle finger, melt the pulleys and pour them into my middle finger mold, and send them back to Unorthodox Racing with a letter telling them what happened

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:43 pm

guess i will DEFINITELY not be getting pulleys for my vibe!

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:54 pm

I most definitely will not be getting them for my Vibe either. The little bit you gain isn't worth the risk.

Jahntassa · Post by **Jahntassa** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:25 pm

Now wait..were they actual "underdrive" pulleys, or were they just aluminum?You can get lightweight pulleys that aren't underdrives, and those SHOULD be more safe. Underdrive is more for cars that're gonna be racing.This much, is as far as i've heard around other forums and people I know. You can replace the pulleys with lightweight stuff, but the "underdrive" pulleys, which I think are smaller, do cause these problems.Just my 2 cents.. If i'm wrong, let me know! Heh.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:51 pm

Quote, originally posted by Jahntassa Â»Now wait..were they actual "underdrive" pulleys, or were they just aluminum?The crank pulley is Aluminum, but the problem occurs because there is no harmonic balancer in the new crank pulley. The vibrations from the lack of a balancer are mostly absorbed by your oil pump. The alternator and water pump were underdrive pulleys, but they didn't and probably wouldn't ever cause any problems. but I'm just not putting them back on because I'm already pissed off enough with those things.Also, Rob, I don't think there is any difference between the actual engine in the '03 to the '04, but I believe the -7 horsies comes from stuff they had to add to the car outside of the engine that draws the power.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:09 pm

Well those balancers are on there for a reason... guess maybe anyone else out there has pulleys might want to take it off...

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:38 am

Quote, originally posted by Mavrik Â»anyone else out there has pulleys might want to take it off...and get a new oil pump because it is probably already hurting. I THINK It is only the crank pulley that does any damage, if you already have them all installed, you MIGHT be able to leave the alternator and water pump pulleys on there without seeing any problems.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:13 am

Quote, originally posted by Pablo1669 Â»I was thinking I would make a mold of my middle finger, melt the pulleys and pour them into my middle finger mold, and send them back to Unorthodox Racing with a letter telling them what happenedLOL! They'd probably keep it and put it in their company museum of artifacts recieved from disgruntled customers. That's way more time, effort, and creativity than I'd be willing to put into making a big complaint about a product. Good thinking, Pablo! Make sure to include pics of the remains of the exploded oil pump and the engine that the dealer removed from your Vibe.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:37 am

You should do that and show us all pics before you send the mold away.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:44 pm

Quote, originally posted by Mavrik Â»You should do that and show us all pics before you send the mold away.I'm going to see what I can do. Here at Kettering (Ranked #1 for Industrial Engineering by US News and World Report) we have a nice foundry I can probably get my hands on to melt them down and pour them into a sand casting of my hand. It'd be fun, and I know the lab techs would love it. The only thing I need now is to get my pulleys back from the dealership. I've got to wait for them to take them off my old engine.

philndz · Post by **philndz** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:53 am

So whats the deal here...I have heard that it is only the 2zz engine that has these issues....do these pullies work safely on the 1zz....also unorthodox's site says the harmonic balancer is a myth type of thing and is not an issue????<very confused??

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:34 pm

Quote, originally posted by philndz Â»So whats the deal here...I have heard that it is only the 2zz engine that has these issues....do these pullies work safely on the 1zz....also unorthodox's site says the harmonic balancer is a myth type of thing and is not an issue????I would not recommend them to anyone, but hey, if you think you can afford a new engine at the price of the possible gains, then take the risk of losing the one you have now. Thats Bull **** about the harmonic balancer. How can anyone think that removing that wouldn't cause any problems? Now that I've read up a little more on that stuff since my unfortunate experience, I would NEVER recommend removing your balancer. It's there for a reason. I WANT UNORTHODOX's (removed) IN A SLING!!!

MonotoneSatellite · Post by **MonotoneSatellite** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:18 am

Anyone looking for an interesting reading a bit about the effects of harmonic balancers, underdrive pullies and the like should check this link. They are dealing with a Saturn 1.9 DOHC , but the basics should hold true.http://www.teamscr.com/pulleys.html

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:43 am

That is a really good article, kinda proves they just aren't worth the money. I sure wish I had my cash back, plus the 25 days I spent without my car back as well.If I can repeat my advice from this situation, DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY, it's not worth the gain (however small it might be). And Honestly, I only noticed a small difference, not enough to warrent the 300 bucks (or so) they cost when I bought them.

MonotoneSatellite · Post by **MonotoneSatellite** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:04 am

Yeah I like the fact that they gained a whoping 3 HP with the accessory drive belt completely removed. After reading that article, I am not sure there is much to be had by these setups. Too bad we had to learn this at the cost of your engine.Happy tuning

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 am

yeah, but with that article, they still had the stock crank pulley, and that is the one with the most change in weight and size, so probably adds the most HP with the change

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:40 am

The weight of the pulley shouldn't effect HP, just how quickly the motor winds. Like a lighter flywheel but to a neglegable amount. It's the lower stain from better pull ratios that gives that important 1-2 hp increase.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:53 pm

Quote, originally posted by goodvibe Â»The weight of the pulley shouldn't effect HP, Ever heard of Mass Moment of Inertia? Rotational Inertia properties? The weight of the pulley definately effects how much horse power is lost. How much draw do you think there is on the engine as the heavier pulley increases in rotational velocity? It takes a hell of a lot more power from the engine to get a heavier stock pulley spinning than it would for a lightweight aluminum pulley

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:15 pm

Flywheels have greater rotational mass differences and won't increase the HP either. It does take more effort to get the higher mass up to speed and thereby winds slower unloaded. Once up to speed it also better resists being pulled down by load. Tested at a steady rpm, you will see no difference in HP. There is no additional load here. Dynamically, you do have a difference in character but the same HP. I could argue more torque with higher rotational mass since there is greater resistance to change and since torque X RPM = HP the change due to a pulleys' mass is nil but that isn't exactly correct either. It's closer to something like the energy is not lost from a heavier pulley but stored instead. The amount of rotational mass we're talking about in a pulley won't increase acceleration once in gear and pulling another 3000 Lbs. The pulley is neglegable here as the weight is small as is the diameter. The reduced drain from gear reduction on accessories will help more. Excuse me if my terminology is incorrect. I've never had physics and been out of school now for almost 30 yrs.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:26 pm

And congratulations to you on having your ride back. Glad to see you rolling again.