catalytic converter again?

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:08 am

Last week, my car started doing that "spontaneousdownshifting on the flat highway" thing again.I took it back to the dealer on Friday. A tech came out with me for a road test ( one gold star for that), and brought the portable diagnostics ( another gold star for that). The car was unable to hold 100 km/h, on a very flat highway, heading into a fairly stiff wind. ( gold star for my car, actually showing the tech that it is in fact broken).This tech seems like a really good guy. He's going to do some research this coming week, and give their shop a chance to clear out a bunch of frozen cars (it's been a 19 hour wait for a tow truck with this weather), and we'll tackle it the 2nd week of February.I have 7000 km remaining on my extended warranty. I'm sure glad this cropped up now.I'm thinking that it can't just be the catalytic converter, that there must be something else that is causing it to become constricted. The cat plugging is just a symptom, like the downshifting.It's not as bad as it was before, but I still don't like the fact that this car has some sort of unresolved issue.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:49 am

Maybe there is a transmission problem were the car "thinks" its going slower then it really is and thus downshifts on you... I have no experience at all with that problem at my shop but I wonder if perhaps a sensor is going... its sending the wrong speed information. Or something more serious in the transmission itself.Keep us posted on the results, I'm very curious to hear what it could be.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:06 am

She is probably right about the catalytic converter, she has had this problem before and quite an ordeal to get the problem resolved.see http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=2894pmh013, if it is the catalytic converter plugged again, then there must be a reason it is getting plugged, although I don't know what that would be. At least you have the history of the problem from the last time, so hopefully they will be able to figure it out quicker this time. Still, a hassle to have to keep taking the car back to the dealer. I bet you're glad you got an extended warranty.

Vibe Rater · Post by **Vibe Rater** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:12 am

A plugged converter is usually caused by a faulty O2 sensor.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:14 pm

Shouldn't a faulty O2 sensor trigger a CEL? I've never had one.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:05 am

I took the car in yesterday to get it tested. They didn't have time to get it in (argh) so it is back in today. I was promised they'd get it tested today.They think it's a plugged catalytic converter again, but they need to do the backpressure test to make sure.Considering that I'm less than 5000 km away from my extended warranty expiring, I'm hoping to get an abnormally long warranty on this catalytic converter (this is the 2nd one already). Do any of our GM employees know what the warranty would normally be on a catalytic converter?

Sub-Vibe-R · Post by **Sub-Vibe-R** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:19 am

My oncle bought a Lumina in 97, and bring it to the dealer 2-3 times for an engine knocking when the car is cold.The can duplicate the touble at the dealer and the final answer was: " All the V6 3.1 knock this way, it is due to the piston weight and your car will run great for a long time again."So after complaning to GM and his dealer, he finally got an extended warranty (8 years overall) on this defect.Let's hope GM will agree to extend the warranty on this part for you too.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:37 am

I just talked with the dealership.The results of the backpressure test: excessive backpressure at 10 psi under load. That means the catalytic converter is plugged again. How frustrating, but at least it only took 2 weeks and not 3 months this time.Because GM gave me extended warranty the last time, the emissions system is actually covered to 130,460 km (I took possession @ 460 km). That gets me approximately 35,000 km coverage, no questions asked. I was assured that I would probably get coverage to 160,000 km, because this has been an on-going issue.Kristy at the dealership (who gets for being the only one who doesn't need their head removed from their (removed)) predicts that there will be a crap load of Vibes with this same problem in a couple of years, when you guys catch up in kilometers. Keep that in mind as the odometer rolls.I think it would be interesting to perform the backpressure test again in June or July. I only seem to have symptoms when the weather is cold, but maybe if they can catch it before the thing completely plugs, they can figure out what is wrong.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:52 am

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â» I think it is time to see fi GM will buy your Vibe back... I asked GM to buy my Vibe back at about 46000 km (right before they finally figured out it was the catalytic converter that was plugged). I was told it had too many km on it. I highly doubt that they'll buy it back now, considering that I've more than doubled the odometer reading.I will continue to have GM replace my catalytic converter every 30,000 km or so (as it acts up) until they figure out what is in fact wrong with it. I am thus far still the only owner who has had this problem, so until it becomes repeated by others, I don't think they're going to work very hard to diagnose the root cause. That's just the feeling I've got on the situation.My first converter started acting up at 20,000 km. This one started acting up 30,000 km after it was replaced. So, if they get the new one on before I hit 100,000 km (in about 1 month at this rate), then I should be able to get another 30,000 km out of the 3rd one before my official warranty expires. After that, it's duking it out to get goodwill.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:44 am

tell us all what brand of gas you buy so we can avoid them.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:13 am

That doesn't sound to good. Yeah what gas are you using and will manual transmissions get effected? I have Vibe customers with over 30,000km on their Vibes with no probs. Of course theirs are Vibe GT 6spd...

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:29 am

She's the only so far who has had a clogged converter diagnosed and replaced, I would think that the transmission is not a factor, but lack of power and lots of downshifting were symptoms of the effect on engine performance. A lot of people are getting really bad gas mileage, but none of them are complaining about drops in performance also.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:54 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»tell us all what brand of gas you buy so we can avoid them. Joatmon, I don't think we can blame this on the gas I'm buying. GM tried that last time, because I was buying at a discount gas station. I've kept track of every millilitre that's gone into that car, what the odometer reading was, date & station. I've ONLY gotten gas at the major stations ... Shell, Petro Canada, Co-op & Esso. The first 3 all pull out of the same refinery around here.I don't know if this is a model issue (i.e., AWD vs Base vs GT) or what. All I can say is on my AWD, I first noticed the drop in power combined with the downshifting at 20,000 km which was the end of October 2002. It took about 25,000 km to diagnose the plugged catalytic converter, which brought me up to the end of March 2003 & 50,000 km. At 93,000 km (end of January 2004) the symptoms re-appeared. By the time I get the 2nd replacement, I'll be at about 96,500 km (somewhere around the 16th of February).Personally, I think it's a combination of distance, throughput of litres & cold climate operation. There is a fundamental flaw in the design of the car, and it should start showing up in the next couple of years once the 2003 Canadian & northern US models start getting some high miles on them.

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:00 am

20,000 km is 12,430 miles. I've gone more than double that (about 31,000 miles / 49,890 km) and *knock on wood* have not had similar problems. I'll hope to pass the next milestone at 93,000 km / 57,790 miles without incident!

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:19 am

I was mostly joking about the brand of gas (see the ?) It would be easy if was soemthing like bad gasoline.I guess only time will tell if the problem shows up in more vehicles, until then it will be hard to tell if it is something that applies to Vibes instead of Matrixes, AWD instead of other versions, northern/cold driving, or some combination of these or other factors, or maybe jsut a fluke with your car where there is some sensor gone wrong but doesn't throw any error codes.In one of the gas mileage threads, silver said the dealer could intrument your car to capture extended running data, maybe they need to do something like that on your car to really see if it is running as designed.

threekrows · Post by **threekrows** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:06 pm

Maybe you could convince them it's due to the undersized battery....lolemissions parts are 8 years or 80000 miles on everything else,I'm sure vibe is the same.you surely have something wrong if you keep plugging converters.maybe you can find a dealer with a 4-gas analyzer to see whats coming out of your tailpipe,I would wonder if you're running rich and getting some unburnt fuel in the converter.I always assumed our little "toys" burned pretty clean.I do know mine smells like raw sewage when I ride the throttle hard.Thats always nice when you make a pit stop at the house and shut some fumes in with ya when you take back off!

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:18 pm

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»the dealer could intrument your car to capture extended running data, maybe they need to do something like that on your car to really see if it is running as designed.I'm told that they did that the last time the converter failed. They brought in engineering from Edmonton, Alberta. They test drove it for over 600 km! They had mountains of data that was forwarded to various people in engineering, as well as the Canadian cold weather testing facility at Kapuskasing, Ontario.When I took the service tech out for the test drive back in January, he gave me the impression that the portable diagnostic tool he had was unable of capturing real time data; that it only gave out min & max. Even still, min & max should be enough to see that the car is not running within "normal". Maybe if it hits a low-low or a high-high for a time period that the scanner is not capable of sensing, but these things tend to have a pretty good sampling frequency.For now, I'm not going to hypothesize about what could possibly be wrong. I don't know enough about the system to make an educated guess, and the dealer won't listen to my suggestions because their data doesn't indicate that my suggestions may be a problem. So, I end up worrying my pretty little head off about what is wrong with this car.And, I knew you were joking about the gas brand. Funny thing is, that's what GM blamed the last time, because it was easy to do. Oh well... if they can't figure out what is wrong, it will just keep costing them in warranty parts.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:20 pm

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish Â»20,000 km is 12,430 miles. I've gone more than double that (about 31,000 miles / 49,890 km) and *knock on wood* have not had similar problems. I'll hope to pass the next milestone at 93,000 km / 57,790 miles without incident!I theorize that it doesn't get cold enough in New Jersey for this problem to rear its ugly head. It's got to be at least -15C (5F) for mine to act up initially.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:15 am

Well, I finally got my catalytic converter yesterday. It should have been done the week before, but the parts were damaged in shipping .I noticed that when I first got in the car, it smelled like plastic or rubber or glue was burning (not at all comforting!). The smell lingered for a while, and I could smell it outside when I got out of the car (maybe a 5 minute drive). I took it out on the highway today, and the smell is gone. I didn't notice any kind of weird smells the last time I had the converter replaced.Any thoughts on what the source of this odour is?

millster · Post by **millster** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:19 am

Don't know for sure if this is the same, but the heat exchangers on new furnaces will do the same thing. There can be all kinds of oils and such on them when they're packaged that have to burn off. Maybe the difference between the two times can be explained by the dealership not having let it warm up after installation this time. They may have run it a bit more last time.

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:05 pm

Not likely, but I had a problem about a year ago where I drove over a plastic bag on the road, and it stuck to the CC and started melting, resulting in a horrid plastic odour and white smoke. Eventually burned itself off. But that was it. Perhaps a piece of the plastic bag it came in was stuck on it and it just burned off?

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:23 pm

Are they going to try to figure out why you needed another converter in your car,? How long of a warranty did they give you on this new one, enough to get you through next winter?

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:32 am

Who knows what goes on in the minds of GM big wigs. I asked if they still had the old catalytic converter, to which I was told that because GM was replacing the part under warranty, they want it back for inspection. Presumably, they should run some tests on it to figure out what is happening. But, I was told they ran tests on the original CC too, but I guess they didn't find anything that could have been used to prevent the failure of the second CC.After the initial CC fiasco, GM gave me a free extended warranty. It covers all the emissions systems to 130,000 km (which should last me another 6 months or so). But, I was assured by the dealership that if I had another CC failure before 160,000 km that it would be treated as a warranty case.I would think that a BRAND NEW car needing TWO catalytic converters within a ONE YEAR period should send up a gigantic red flag to somebody (i.e., Jeff) that this should be looked into.At $640 CDN each for the part, this isn't exactly the cheapest thing to fix, and because it doesn't trigger a CEL, it eats up hours & hours of diagnostic time, and creates majorly *****y customers. Now, all I can do is shrug my shoulders & laugh about it, but I still stand firm that I'll never buy another GM product, so I don't have to endure their "customer service" when it comes to warranty.

MadBill · Post by **MadBill** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:35 am

Modern converters virtually never plug up due to self-induced failures. The cause is usually an engine spark or injector problem causing excessive exhaust gas temperature and/or fuel being ignited in the converter and melting it. Occasionally, it can become plugged by fuel additives like MMT. Assuming that a converter defect is responsible is like figuring a knifing victim must have run into the blade...

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:53 am

right, but the problem for pmh is that this is the second time her converter got wasted, and pontiac is only treating the symptom by replacing the converter, but not able to do anything to correct the problem in her car that has already trashed two converters, and is probably already working on the new third one.

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:59 am

If what Bill says is true and it's an engine issue, maybe you'll get lucky like my parents did with their heat issue (Reference: http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=7319) and get a free engine.It's a new promotion: Get 2 replacements on the same part, get a free engine on your 3rd visit! LOL!

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:12 pm

MadBill & joatmon, I agree that the CC is the victim here, not the cause. There has to be something upstream of the CC that is causing it to fail. I was told that the OEM CC was full of dark "granules," like coffee grounds. GM claims that the source of this was MMT in the gas. However, I personally phoned the customer service lines of 3 brands of gas stations to inquire about their MMT levels. The 4th station, is a Co-op station, and I am on the board. I had our Gen Mgr phone the refinery to inquire about the MMT levels. All are "within specs". The kicker is, that this refinery supplies almost all the fuel in the area!I'd love to get a new engine! Considering that mine is closing in on 98,000 km today (60894 mi), that wouldn't break my heart at all.

chuckj · Post by **chuckj** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:46 pm

My Vibe just had the converted replaced this week. It set a check engine light , but did not seem to affect performance. The paperwork says converter overheated and discolored. No mention of ECU replacement. Mine is a base 5 spd with 47,000 miles. I was out of business for 2 days, but Rinke Pontiac took good care of me. Just thought I would pass on for info.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:57 am

I'm glad yours triggered a CEL. My CEL came on a couple of days ago. I attributed to my fiance being a man, and not putting the gas cap on right, but that hasn't fixed it.I just disconnected the battery, hoping to clear the memory, and see if it comes back on. If it's still there, I'll be making a trip to the dealership to see what codes it spits out.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:06 pm

After I disconnected the negative terminal on the battery for a couple of minutes, I started the car, and the CEL light went out immediately. I suspect the gas cap was to blame for triggering it initially.What worries me is that the darn thing never went out. My fiance noticed it on his way to work. He drove the car two more times that day, and then I drove him to work the next day, we filled up again, and I drove the car on the highway for 2.5 hours, and then turned around and came back home (3.5 hours on the highway). That surely is enough time for the car to run it's diagnostics to come back "normal" isn't it?So, for now, the CEL is off. I'm waiting to see if it returns.

philndz · Post by **philndz** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:12 am

Any news......has the CEL returned?I think i'm having a similar problem so i'm researching previous cases.-Phil

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:56 am

Hey Phil,I just got back from the lake and saw your post. I posted there.My CEL is back on, now it's a evap solenoid valve. Trying to find a deal on replacement. No word on whether the problems I've been having lately on the evap system are related to my earlier cat converter problems.

jjhendri · Post by **jjhendri** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:26 am

Hi pmh013 and others on the forum, well I've got a silver '03 gt and my converter just failed at 48712 miles. Driving back from the west coast of FL to Ft Lauderdale and the check engine light came on. Took it in today and from the code the service tech told me that it indicates that the converter needs to be replaced. They placed the order today and hopefully will have it installed by next week. About 6 weeks ago, had to have the O2 sensor replaced, don't know if this is related to the replacement of the converter. Think about 6 weeks ago had 40-45000 miles.

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:26 am

The two could have been related - whatever damaged the oxygen sensor could have fouled the converter... I don't know - good luck getting yours taken care of!

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:44 am

Well, who would've thought that I'd have to bring this thread back up again?My car is just past 155,000 km and the catalytic converter is definitely pooched again. I took it in to the dealership yesterday for it's 155K oil change, and since it had been sucking back gas like a hog and doing the upshift/downshift thing AGAIN, I enquired when I'd last had the CC replaced, and what kind of warranty it had.Well, I sure am glad that I found this old thread of mine, where I documented that the Asst Service Mgr told me I'd get warranty to 160K!!!Of course, the service advisor started giving me the same old song & dance that I must be using cheap gasoline (don't even go there buddy) or something. Yeah, because wearing out 3 catalytic converters in 4 years is "normal".Anyway, the TSB only covers CC's that stink like farts (which mine never has), and I'm way over warranty for that angle. I'm going to get it pressure tested on Tuesday next week where we'll confirm it is in fact the CC, then I'm going to start playing hard ball with these hosers. What they neglect to realize is that when this crap hit the fan last time, I got all kinds of big-wigs involved ... Jeff Strausser, Transport Canada, Marc Comeau (VP of GM Canada), district service manager (I have her personal cell phone number). They also fail to realize that next Friday, I start 3 weeks of vacation prior to going on maternity leave, so I've got bucketloads of time to get this resolved before popping out a baby.Don't mess with a hormonal pregnant woman's car. Just don't do it.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:22 am

Quote, originally posted by pmh013 Â»next Friday, I start 3 weeks of vacation prior to going on maternity leave, I've been wondering where you've been and what you've been up to. I guess we now know Congratulations!!!!!!!!Sucks about the CC though, I hope they treat you right. My CC lasted about 100K miles. No way your car should eat three .

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:30 am

I've been around. Actually, now I'm just getting round, LOL.I had to pay for today's diagnostic ($100, grumble grumble grumble), but they're going after GM to cover the CC under goodwill warranty (again). Thank goodness the service manager still remembers my case ... they've got a new DSM (again), so there's no history with the new DSM.Parts are not in stock anywhere in North America ((removed)?) so I'm looking at 2 weeks before it gets fixed. Should give the SM plenty of time to fight it out with GM to cover this under goodwill. Heck, I might have a baby by then!

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:38 am

When I had to replace mine, the dealer had one in stock. I said "It's an odd part, why do you have one in stock, do you have a history of needing them?" and they said their parts inventory was mandated by GM, that GM said they needed to have one in stock. I guess I got lucky finding a dealer that still had one. Not cheap, but easy to replace.I still think on your car, the cat is a symptom of some other problem. Maybe it's that crazy northern gas, or the insanely cold winters.

21Rouge · Post by **21Rouge** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:52 am

Quote, originally posted by pmh013 Â»My car is just past 155,000 km and the catalytic converter is definitely pooched again. I took it in to the dealership yesterday for it's 155K oil change, and since it had been sucking back gas like a hog and doing the upshift/downshift thing AGAIN, I enquired when I'd last had the CC replaced, and what kind of warranty it had.This has got me thinking. I have an 05 speed. I got the CC replaced around January because of the smell issue. But ever since then my gas mileage has been terrible (I keep track of each tank). But excessive gas consumption is the only symptom. Is a pressure test the best way to determine the health of a CC? How much did they quote you pmh013 for such a test?

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:43 pm

Quote, originally posted by Boxgrover Â»This has got me thinking. I have an 05 speed. I got the CC replaced around January because of the smell issue. But ever since then my gas mileage has been terrible (I keep track of each tank). But excessive gas consumption is the only symptom. Is a pressure test the best way to determine the health of a CC? How much did they quote you pmh013 for such a test? I've never had the sulfur smell, so that particular TSB has been of no use to me.In addition to crummy fuel economy, I have experienced a loss of power (like when a 1982 Mercury Topaz can beat you at the light) during acceleration, and constant upshifts/downshifts at highway speeds, exacerbated by headwinds and/or going up hills.In my experience, the only way to diagnose a plugged catalytic converter is to get a back pressure test.Today's results:Confirmed excessive exhaust back pressure. 7.5 psi in gear at 3000 RPM. 3 psi in park at 3000 RPM. Over 15 psi when revving up engine in park. The catalytic converter is restricted and needs to be replaced.The back pressure test takes an hour, so you're looking at 1 hour of labour, plus about $10 in "shop fees", which is where I got dinged today ... $100 for the test. However, when GM decides they're going to Goodwill this, I'll get reimbursed for the diagnostic.And trust me, GM will Goodwill this ... if they know what's good for them. I have a file of phone numbers of mucky-mucks at GM and Transport Canada, and I'm not afraid to use it.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:17 am

WAHOO!!!First off, hugs and kisses to Gus @ Capital Pontiac. Gus, I know I've driven you around the bend over the last few years with this car, so I just wanted to know that I truly appreciate the fact that you not only were the only one that didn't think I was a nut job, but you actually figured out what the problem with my car was (well, not totally, but at least you figured out what part was symptomatic).So, why I am gushing over Gus?I got a message yesterday from the dealership. My new CC is in. Yay. I phoned back last night when I got home, but service was already closed. I phoned first thing this morning and actually got to speak to Gus, the Service Manager. Told him who I was, heard that the part was in, and hit him with the whammy question: IS GM GOING TO GOODWILL WARRANTY THIS OR NOT? He didn't have an answer (DSM dragging a$$), but he would get back to me today.Twenty minutes later, Gus phoned my back with fan-friggen-tastic news. Not only is GM going to goodwill warranty this catalytic converter - parts and labour (for the 4th time now) - but they're also going to replace the PCM. The theory is that due to the TSB/sulfur smell, they've made some changes to the PCM and since mine is "so old" that it might be the PCM causing the failure of the CC.Gus has already ordered the PCM and will phone me when it comes in, so we'll get all the new parts installed at one time. I am a very happy camper.This time, I'll be sure to write down the date & mileage that the CC warranty expires. I'll be taking that sucker in for a pressure test a couple weeks before-hand, just to be on the safe side! Maybe I'll be lucky and not own this car by then!

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:48 am

That's good news.. I sure hope the PCM fixes the car's appetite for cats

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:30 am

All the parts came in on Tuesday, and I had another new catalytic converter installed (this would be replacement #3) along with a new PCM today. I could tell within 10 feet that it was already running better.So, let's see if this catalytic converter makes it to 180,000 km. That's about where the warranty will run out on this one.GM goodwill warranty'd the entire thing, and they're sending me a cheque to reimburse me for the diagnostic fee.All that said, the Vibe will be paid off around December or January. I'll probably be looking at trading it off next summer when I go back to work. I guess I'll spend my spring researching what kind of car I want to buy ... I wonder what the dealership will recommend? A Ford, perhaps ((removed))? I've cost GM almost $3000 in catalytic converters and complementary extended warranty by now!

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:17 pm

Glad that they got you going again. I'd like to know what the heck keeps killin 'em though, you know? I bet the dealer will recommend anything but GM! LOL! You should ask just for giggles, I never did but I should have! I'm sure the response I got would have been the same.