Rant about Bush and his stance on gay marriages.

[Geo]

Isn't he so loveable?Christians would be making great strides towards kindness to all people if they would ditch that silly cross and go with something with a bit more pizzaz!Buddy Christ ... now that's a welcoming figure.

[Geo]

And didn't I say that those multiple quote messages annoyed me?Sounds like religion has not only closed your mind, but your eyes as well.

[drunkenmaxx]

Quote, originally posted by Stang2Vibe »Well, I've already explained why they weren't following religious convictions so I'll get to the other part of the question. And my answer to that is no, I do not hate them. I want to hate them and I do hate what they did and why they did it with every molecule of my being, but I do not hate them. Being a Christian requires that I hate no one. I can hate the act, but not the person. It would keep me from getting into heaven to hate people, so therefore I cannot hate them.aha! see, this is one problem i have w/religion. you do, in fact, hate the terrorists, but due to your beliefs, you suppress this and claim you don't. it seems impossible to me to want to hate someone, but not. the only person you should never be able to successfully lie to is yourself. if your statement was correct, this means that you love them. (christianity calls on you to love everyone, even your enemies.)>

[Geo]

Quote time! :DHistory does not record anywhere a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help.-Robert A. HeinleinThis would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religions in it.-John AdamsAnd the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter.-Thomas JeffersonThose of little faith are of little hatred.-Eric HofferCan Jesus make a burrito so hot, that even he cannot eat it?

[Reynoma]

I've stayed out of this for a couple of days, because to argue this point on the internet is just plain silly. Nobody is going to change anybody else's mind. BUT...Geo, you've gone too far. You have now personally attacked me and my beliefs. This has gone way past a discussion on what is right and wrong. It has become a full frontal attack on something that is near and dear to my heart. The cross is not a simply a "symbol" for marketing, it is the root of what I believe. Ok, if I didn't want my beliefs attacked, I should have kept them to myself. That's the way of this country, isn't it? Agree with me or I'm going to humiliate you by attacking anything that could be seen as a weakness!Stang, I'm sorry I stayed away from this thread for so long. I would have been in there with ya. Just remember, Jesus ALLOWED himself to be hung on the cross, to fulfill the reason why he was sent.Goodbye.

[drunkenmaxx]

i think that everyone reading this "heated" thread should not take the posts so seriously. noone is trying to attack you for your beliefs, opinions on your beliefs are being stated. i am not trying to sway anyones beliefs, nor am i attempting to denounce anyones faith. i like to argue with those who are not ignorant. hell, i see this more as a discussion than an argument. this thread is one of my favorites yet! this is way better than the humdrum known as typesetting.

[joatmon]

I disagree, there is a lot of real hostility in this thread, It is unacceptable to publicly ridicule someone because of their religious beliefs. If you can't respect another person's beliefs, then there is no point in debating them. Ironic that a thread about tolerance of others shows that there is general intolerance.It comes down to respect, and it's time some was shown around here.

[Geo]

Quote, originally posted by Reynoma »I've stayed out of this for a couple of days, because to argue this point on the internet is just plain silly. Nobody is going to change anybody else's mind. BUT...Geo, you've gone too far. You have now personally attacked me and my beliefs. This has gone way past a discussion on what is right and wrong. It has become a full frontal attack on something that is near and dear to my heart. The cross is not a simply a "symbol" for marketing, it is the root of what I believe. Ok, if I didn't want my beliefs attacked, I should have kept them to myself. That's the way of this country, isn't it? Agree with me or I'm going to humiliate you by attacking anything that could be seen as a weakness!Stang, I'm sorry I stayed away from this thread for so long. I would have been in there with ya. Just remember, Jesus ALLOWED himself to be hung on the cross, to fulfill the reason why he was sent.Goodbye.Sorry that I offended. That image and my subsequent comment on the cross was from the movie "Dogma," directed by Kevin Smith. It's a great movie, especially with the things about religion it tackles. Quite funny as well. Georce Carlin being seen as a bishop is just so fundamentally wrong that it's hilarious :DBut I have to admit, Buddy Christ is a lot more inviting than Jesus on a cross - strictly from a PR point of view. (And this is coming from someone who studied and believed in religion for the beginning 7 or so years of his school career, only finally realizing that something was indeed amiss when he was in 7th grade or so)I will also say on my defense that I don't hate religion, is that I think Monks are totally cool.There they sit, keeping to themselves, leading by example and not denouncing everyone else as morally wrong and lambasting them with threats of hell, etc. I don't have to worry about a Monk (at least in the sense of a Monk that I am thinking of) trying to shove their religious ideals down my throat - unlike what seems to be happening by a lot more "vocal" religious members.You're totally cool to be religous, just don't try to force your ideals on me or tell me how I can or cannot live my life. That's my main problem with it. Religious people telling homosexuals how they can and cannot live their lives, that they are morally wrong, and will bring death and doom to the world as we know it is something I have a problem with. Let them live out their happy lives, be equal with the rest of the people, and if we are all wrong - well that's just how the cookie crumbles. I'm sure there are still people who worship Baphomet, the androgynous god of homosexuals. Perhaps they are just following their ideals, what power do you have to tell them they are wrong?

[drunkenmaxx]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »It is unacceptable to publicly ridicule someone because of their religious beliefs. well, it's not okay to redicule someone who has no religious beliefs. i have not intended any harm in my posts, i would hope that stang and i are on the same page as far as lack of hostility. if anyone thinks its wrong for me to denounce "god", then i think it's wrong to support him. if this thread has been bothersome for some of you folks, dont read it, problem solved.ps- i love all my genvibe homies

[Reynoma]

Quote, originally posted by drunkenvibe »if this thread has been bothersome for some of you folks, dont read it, problem solved.ps- i love all my genvibe homies drunkenvibe,I cannot agree with you here. If I were to post something that was against any particular goup of people, be it white/black/hispanic/female/male/gay/Christian/Athiest, then I cannot protect myself with the blanket statement, "If you don't like it, don't read it."Debate is one thing, pointed attacks are another.As a Christian, we are taught tolerance. I do not subscribe to shoving religion down anybody's throat. However, I cannot water down my beliefs so that everybody is happy. There are many, many things about the Christian religion that make life hard, but I cannot simply choose which parts to obey and which to not obey. That would make me a Hypocrit (spelling?). I am no better than anybody else.

[drunkenmaxx]

i have in no way attacked anyone. i have stated my beliefs, that is all. i haven't felt attacked when the christians are anti-anti-christian. i think that it is the strong emotions attached to ones beliefs that make a statement i aim to be harmless seem as an attack. like i said before, i wish i was on your side! without religion, this world would be a rotting dump full of hatred and crime which has no morals and most likely, no rules.-i am sorry, but the easiest way to aviod being offended is by not reading a post which you know to contain material that will offend you!

[Geo]

I can't believe I didn't mention this before ... but for those that are touting that homosexuality isn't "natural" ... please be reminded that it is quite the natural occurance in the animal kingdom, and in some species it even accounts for 50% of sexual activity.Fun NY Times article on a pair of gay pengiuns: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02...ition=Of special interest:Bonobos, apes closely related to humans, are wildly energetic sexually. Studies show that whether observed in the wild or in captivity, nearly all are bisexual, and nearly half their sexual interactions are with the same (removed). Female bonobos have been observed to engage in homosexual activity almost hourly.What was that quote I once heard ... was it Frued? Something about "The only unnatural (removed) is no (removed) at all." As long as you love someone, being together is morally A-OK with me as far as having a family and raising a kid! Isn't that what we were debating in the first place?

[Stang2Vibe]

If you want to know what started the whole debate, you ought to read the title you chose for this thread. I fully expected it to be locked shortly thereafter, but I am very glad that it was not. Many good points and learning opportunities have arisen from it. I also expected a verbal paddling from the powers that be, especially considering that I am a moderator on this site and all, and I was prepared to deal with that. I'm very glad that that did not happen as well because it has answered the question "can I be a member of GenVibe and still practice my religion?". Gladly, the answer is yes, so I didn't have to split. I have done my darndest to restrain myself from attacking the person and focus the attack on the idea, which is what debate is. I think I've done pretty well.You can't start a thread like this and after presenting a case in that way, be able to sit back unopposed. You invited the wrath of the opposition not by the topic that you brought up, but in the manner that it was done. You chose to attack the President for upholding a Christian belief. That is essentially the same as attacking Christianity, and therefore, every other Christian person. We are under enough attack from all angles in America today so we are going to fight back on the defensive quite redily. It seems that it has become fashionable or even "cool" to publicly bash Christianity in this country today. Think about it. If you attack Jews or Judiasm, you are labeled an anti-semite. If you attack Islam or Muslims, you are labeled intolerant. If you attack Christians or Christianity, you are made a national hero and the media flocks to support you and help spread the idea. What the hell gives? It's not the first time that this has happened. Afterall, Jesus was murdered for starting Christianity. Christians were punished, tortured, murdered, etc. regularly under several Roman emperors for centuries. Even today in some countries like China you can be executed for professing Christian beliefs. So in the grand scheme of things, I guess that we modern American Christians aren't persecuted all that terribly. But we are still persecuted nonetheless.As far as "updating" the image of Christ on the cross, I have this to say. Christ and his life were not a PR campaign nor some marketing scheme. Christ did not come here to sell products, He came to redeem the human race. To just wantonly slap Him on marketing schemes is an indignation of the highest degree and will not be taken lightly. You won't see me desicrating the symbols of Judiasm, Islam, Buddism, Shintoism, Hinduism, etc. I fundamentally disagree with every one of them, but I will not desicrate what they hold sacred. Why? Because I have respect for their rights and beliefs. If I denied others their rights and beliefs, then I would have to abandon my own to avoid being a hypocrite. But that in no way means that I have to condone or accept those beliefs. There is a difference between tolerance and acceptance. I tolerate homosexuality (to an extent) but I do not accept it. If I were intolerant of homosexuals, I would be participating in things like gay-bashing and open persecution of them. I could go out and get an assault rifle and just start killing gay people. I don't do those things because I have a level of tolerance for them, but that does not equate to acceptance. When you talk about people here shoving religion down your throat, you should stop and think about what you are doing with homosexuality by trying to force the legalization of gay marriage. That is forcing the acceptance of homosexuality down the throat of every person in every community in this nation. You assert that homosexuals have the right to adopt children or have children through alternate means and raise them to accept the homosexual lifestyle while at the same time you want to deny me the right to raise my children to not accept it. Now, who is forcing what upon whom here? You are making me and the majority of people in America today the victims of your way of thinking.As for "annoying" you with quotes and responses as I usually do, I don't do this to annoy you. I do this because you raise several points in each paragraph and each needs to be responded to individually. It makes it easier to read and understand the rebuttal of each point if I quote the original statement individually and then respond to it. It also breaks up big blocks of text to make it easier on the eyes. I thought that you would appreciate making it easier to respond. I guess you have trained yourself to hate seeing those multiple quotes and responses because it means your arguement it being picked apart bit by bit.I'll spare you the "indignity" of thanking me for not using my usual response methods in this post and just say to you: "you're welcome".Oh, and to respond to your comments on the gay animals thing. Once again, consider your source. The NY Times is a renowned liberal outlet. They have openly admitted with gleaming pride that homosexuals control much of the newspaper, so an article like that does not surprise me. Nor does it prove anything because of the biased activists publishing it. I personally think that there are only two good uses for the NY Times: one is to use it as a fire starter when camping and the other is to take it with you to the outhouse to spare using the toilet paper. Hey, you can do your part to save some trees that way!And your quotes from Jefferson and John Adams (assuming you were quoting President John Adams and not some other person by the same name) were taken completely out of context. You can tell whatever liberal/athiest support group that you are quoting those things from that they are practicing plagiarism by doing so.

[Stang2Vibe]

Quote, originally posted by drunkenvibe »i would hope that stang and i are on the same page as far as lack of hostility.> Nope. No hostility here. No, in all seriousness, you are right drunken. I'm not hostile toward any person here in these posts because of this discussion, but I do become hostile toward the ideas presented when they attack me or my religion. I then reserve the right to become verbally hostile.

[Reynoma]

Quote, originally posted by Geo »I can't believe I didn't mention this before ... but for those that are touting that homosexuality isn't "natural" ... please be reminded that it is quite the natural occurance in the animal kingdom, and in some species it even accounts for 50% of sexual activity.Fun NY Times article on a pair of gay pengiuns: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02...ition=Of special interest:Bonobos, apes closely related to humans, are wildly energetic sexually. Studies show that whether observed in the wild or in captivity, nearly all are bisexual, and nearly half their sexual interactions are with the same (removed). Female bonobos have been observed to engage in homosexual activity almost hourly.Geo, you opened this one up, not me.Dogs also sniff each other in the (removed)....many animals roll in their own sh*t... some adult animals murder their young...very natural behavior. Does that mean that it is ok for humans? Humans are held to a MUCH higher standard.

[drunkenmaxx]

ha ha, gay penguins!

[Geo]

Quote, originally posted by Reynoma »Geo, you opened this one up, not me.Dogs also sniff each other in the (removed)....many animals roll in their own sh*t... some adult animals murder their young...very natural behavior. Does that mean that it is ok for humans? Humans are held to a MUCH higher standard. Ah yes, we do hold ourselves to a higher standard. But think of this:Dogs can't shake hands, so they sniff butts.Rolling around in their own **** is often for territorial purposes, as scent is very much a part of the animal kingdom. We just use cologne.As far as murdering our young, some humans do it as well.It seems as more and more scientists are doing behavorial research studies on animals and finding out about homosexuality in the animal kingdom. I brought it up because lots of people think it is "wrong and not natural." What could be more natural than nature itself participating in the act? I'll go on to mention that I take back that whole "people choose to be gay" because now I think it is much more just an inherent behavior, but for many more people the drive to be heterosexual is stronger. I am straight, brought up with a mom and dad. A good friend of mine from highschool was brought up by lesbian mothers - and she was straight too. Only difference was she had a bit more tolerance for other people than I did going into highschool - as I very much used to be "afraid" of gay people - I had never openly met one. Once I realized that the only difference between me and them was their chosen way of life, no more problems existed and I have no problem with their way of life.Drunken: Gay penguins are great, aren't they?

[drunkenmaxx]

>mmm, leths go thwimming together blane!

[cibomatto]

This thread is too huge.. so much reading.. my general feeling about this is let them do what they want to do and yes give them rights. I don't think gay marriages leads to moral decay of our society.. I mean come on.... How harmful could a big gay Al be ?

[Geo]

In an article in one of my school newspapers today, I read some interesting things:The American Psychological Association, the National Council for the Adoptable Children, and the Child Welfare League of America all oppose restricting gay parenting - as they believe, and some 30 studies have shown in published, peer-reviewed, social science journals, that kids who grow up in gay households are in fact perfectly fine - and are in no way harmed by the lifestyle of their parents.Another interesting fact, according to 2000 Census, 1 in 5 male couples and 1 in 3 female couples are already raising kids. Stang: First off, thanks (A lot easier to read) Second, oh yea, I expected to have challenging viewpoints, I've had fun with this entire thread thus far. More than once I found myself laughing Also, as fas as "updating the image of Chris on the cross" The whole idea was taken from the movie "Dogma" by Kevin Smith, the movie is in fact extremely funny, and has some good points of religion - I would highly recommend a watch of it. I mean, they get Alanis Morisette to play the part of God, that in itself makes it worth seeing Here's some of the quotes from that movie having to do with Buddy Christ:Cardinal Glick: Fill them pews, people, that's the key. Grab the little ones as well. Hook 'em while they're young. Rufus: Kind of like the tobacco industry? Cardinal Glick: Oh, if only we had their numbers. Cardinal Glick: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now we all know how the majority and the media in this country view the Catholic church. They think of us as a passe, archaic institution. People find the Bible obtuse...even hokey. Now in an effort to disprove all that the church has appointed this year as a time of renewal...both of faith and of style. For example, the crucifix. While it has been a time honored symbol of our faith, Holy Mother Church has decided to retire this highly recognizable, yet wholly depressing image of our Lord crucified. Christ didn't come to Earth to give us the willies...He came to help us out. He was a booster! And it is with that take on our Lord in mind that we've come up with a new, more inspiring sigil. So it is with great pleasure that I present you with the first of many revamps the "Catholicism WOW!" campaign will unveil over the next year. I give you...The Buddy Christ! Now that's not the sanctioned term we're using for the symbol, just something we've been kicking around the office, but look at it. Doesn't it...pop? Buddy Christ... All my talk about updating Christ's image came from that movie, I guess to fully understand it you would have to see it.

[Geo]

And ... an accompanying image:

[drunkenmaxx]

>John 10:4 - "Jesus leads His sheep and He shows them the way that they should go; and the sheep follow Him because they know His voice, as those who have entered into spiritual fellowship with Him; and thus they trust Him, knowing that He is faithful."-christians: this is just taken out of context, yes, i am poking fun, but with good intention.if it makes you feel better, make fun of non-christians.

[Geo]

Does that mean we can shave the Christians and make coats out of the hair?! :DStep 1) Shave ChristiansStep 2) ???Step 3) Profit!

[Geo]

Just to be fair, I try to belittle everyone in an equal basis.It isn't discrimination if you take a swing at everyone Just this wasn't the thread to poke fun at anyone else. There was something comedian Lewis Black was saying before, something about laughter. It was something along the lines of that if you can't take yourself with a bit of humor, if you can't laugh at your own religion sometimes, that's when things go bad. Laughter keeps people sane ... when you don't laugh, you get people who fly planes into buildings, and stuff like that.Not a direct quote, but that's just because I can't google it up right now.My last few posts haven't bashed religion itself, I was just quoting popular movies. If you can't laugh at this stuff ... then something is terribly wrong On a side note, if I don't like something, I won't read it. No one is forcing me to read anything, so if I read something, I have no one but to blame but myself. On a side note ... no one has seen Dogma before? Boy ... you people are missing out.

[ragingfish]

I loved Dogma - an AWESOME movie!

[SARGE]

Quote, originally posted by Stang2Vibe »And that is as grand of a corruption of human creation as my mind can possibly conceive.Everyone has the right to an opinion. My job is to defend that right. Now I'm going to exercise that right. I agree 100% with you, Stang2Vibe. I'm not going to directly BASH anyone, but the individual who wrote that initial article needs to open his eyes. The women he refers to with the child should not have been in that situation to begin with. If the 2 women want to be together, so be it, but do NOT subject an innocent child to that lifestyle. It is selfish and unfair. If homosexuality is the lifestyle one chooses, fine, but don't raise children in that type of environment. It is my belief that is a good reason 2 men, or 2 women can't reproduce. Amen to ya Stang2Vibe!!!

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 »Just on a side note, drugs use and is high among gay and lesbian lifestyles. Got any statistics to back that up? I agree HIV numbers are obviously higher, but I have seen no evidence that drug use is any higher...

[Geo]

Quote, originally posted by SARGE » If the 2 women want to be together, so be it, but do NOT subject an innocent child to that lifestyle. It is selfish and unfair. If homosexuality is the lifestyle one chooses, fine, but don't raise children in that type of environment. Just to mention that it has already been established that being raised in a homosexual environment in no way negativly affects kids (read above), so I don't see why it is a problem. I think it is selfish and unfair to force any lifestyle on a kid be it forcing them to think gay, or forcing them to think gays are bad. However, to raise them and let them make their own decisions - to raise them knowing love and caring, that's a sound decision, be it from two mommies or daddies, or one of each. I think the only problem of being raised in a homosexual environment is that you grow up with too much understanding and not enough discrimination against those who are different ... I mean, this world would be quite better off with more bigotry, right?bigotry: The state of mind of a bigot; obstinate and unreasoning attachment of one's own belief and opinions, with narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them.

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 »I have read articles where in the Gay and Lesbian Life Style if they are a drug user than uses IV Drugs and share needs and if they are infected with HIV, it will be transfered to other users who like to "shoot up" with the same needle.That's not just gays and lesbians. MANY injection drug users share needles.

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 »It is just not, but when they are all hopped up on drugs, using the same needles and then having (removed) with each other really is a breeding ground for HIV. Then they complain when their Immune System shuts down and they are taking a cocktail of drugs to stay alive that is costing the insurance companies many of millions of dollers each year and that money should be going towards cancer research or something.. I never disputed the HIV statistic. You're blurring the edges there.Anyway, I'm getting out of this debate before I end up in something I don't want to be a part of...

[Geo]

HIV is also rampant among any group of people that tends to be promescuous, it's one of the hazards of the job.We should be doing all we can to encourage families between gays to end this type of behavior of a few bad eggs!

[Stang2Vibe]

Quote, originally posted by Geo »Just to mention that it has already been established that being raised in a homosexual environment in no way negativly affects kids (read above)Really? By whom??? Some liberal activist thinktank of which some members happen to have psychology degrees? Oh, I'm going to rush to believe THEM. For every source that you can cite to reinforce that view, I could probably come up with one that concludes the opposite. And I LOVE the arguement that gay people were born gay and the genetic predisposition thing and all that. That just really makes me laugh. How do they explain away the fact that there are probably thousands of formerly very active homosexuals who have turned around and become completely straight. That's the same as someone who is black just turning white one day. Well, anyone except Michael Jackson I guess.

[Stang2Vibe]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »I probably won't vote for Bush either, but as much as I disagree with a lot of what he does, I will reserve my vote until I can know who the opposing candidates will be and learn more about them.I could only hope that more people would think like you in this instance, joat. That is what the responsible voter does. I wish I could fully agree with you, though. I would have to say that I will most likely vote for Bush, not because I am excited about voting for him, because I'm not. But so far, those who are candidates to run against him take everything that I don't like about Bush and magnify it 100 times and use it as their platform and, frankly, they scare the hell out of me.

[Geo]

Yep, enough humor for one thread. ::slowly backs away, slightly giggling as he turns his back::

[Reynoma]

Quote, originally posted by Geo »Yep, enough humor for one thread. I agree....let this thread go away!

[MailGuy!]

Quote, originally posted by Geo »HIV is also rampant among any group of people that tends to be promescuous, it's one of the hazards of the job.We should be doing all we can to encourage families between gays to end this type of behavior of a few bad eggs! I agree with you completely on this. All of the homosexuals I've spoken too are very promescuous. I don't agree with hederosexuals that act like this either. I think allowing marriage for them would help slow the spread of disease.