Weapons

Merzbow · Post by **Merzbow** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:49 am

So...how many of you keep a weapon of some kind in your Vibe? I keep this steel beer tap handle in the glove box, and my dad gave me a hammer handle to put under my seat just for added protection. If someone trys to jack my baby I'm not goin down without a fight, no one trys to steal or abuse my car without getting punished!!!

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:59 am

Ummm...NO.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:23 am

on review, all my subsequent posts in the thread have ben removed

Psychobroker · Post by **Psychobroker** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:33 am

I have needed something in the past, so I keep a small, lead-filled bat called the "Fishin' Whacker". I've had to use it in the distant past to defend myself, so yeah, it's there.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:56 am

All I got is a snow brush on the floor of the back seat... Never thought or want to ever need that for self defense to save the car. Then again I always drive with doors locked and windows up... unless at the beach heh.

Merzbow · Post by **Merzbow** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:02 am

It may be offtopic by that's ok, just have a moderator move it, no big deal. It's still going to be posted sooooooo...I've never had to use it but my dad had to sleep in his van for a little bit when my parents got divorced and he had a big wood pole he had to use once a guy tried to get in while he was sleeping in it!!! So he suggested I keep something in there just incase.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:04 am

Quote, originally posted by Merzbow Â»It may be offtopic by that's ok, just have a moderator move it, no big deal. It's still going to be posted sooooooo...Only the moderator of the Vibe Lounge forum (which is Nick, I think) can move it.

cohocarl · Post by **cohocarl** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:32 am

I used to play softball and always kept my aluminum bat in the car....even years after I quit playing ball. Yes, it's feels nice knowing you may be able to give someone a whack or two if they deserve it, but there's alot of hungry lawyers out there, and our justice system is just plain pluked-up.

scherry2 · Post by **scherry2** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:52 am

Quote, originally posted by Merzbow Â»So...how many of you keep a weapon of some kind in your Vibe? I keep this steel beer tap handle in the glove box, and my dad gave me a hammer handle to put under my seat just for added protection. If someone trys to jack my baby I'm not goin down without a fight, no one trys to steal or abuse my car without getting punished!!!thats what insurance is for, my vibe isnt worth my life......

VibeChick · Post by **VibeChick** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:31 am

Canadians are too nice for weapons...

dsegundo · Post by **dsegundo** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:41 am

so does an AR-15 count? I've got one but I don't have a clip on it....and no i normally don't carry one but I had to pick it up for a friend and I'm going to drop it off for him tomarrow...(he's a marine)

redlava · Post by **redlava** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:00 pm

I have a metal punch within easy reach, more for cracking windows incase I drive into a lake or something. But it is also good for cracking skulls too, I guess. Unfortunatly there is no good place to put something within easy reach but out of the way. Maybe Pontiac could do something about that it 2005. The "paranoid urbanite package" comes with shotgun holder on dash, mase dispencers in side morrors, and concussion grenade shift knob. lol

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:05 pm

I used to carry a mine ceiling inspection bar in the car. It was about 2 1/2 feel long, had a 5LB brass knob on one end and a 1 inch wide by about 4 inch long steel pick with a fairly sharp beveled edge on the other end. The shaft was made of fiberglass. It used to be used at the U.S. Bureau of Mines facility south of Pittsburgh where my mom once worked. She was engaged to another employee there for a while when I was in high school and he gave me the bar because they were just going to throw it away. My mom didn't know what I kept it for and she sold it for $5 at one of our garage sales a few years ago while I was at work. I was mad to say the least, it made an excellent emergency beater. Now I usually carry law enforcement grade pepper spray on me. I'd like to carry my mom's Smith and Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, but she and my stepdad like to take it target shooting every so often. And the rifle is a bit too long to keep stored in the Vibe. I'm getting my concealed carry permit soon and will probably buy a .45 semi-automatic or some sort of .38 or .357. But for now, I pretty much am my own weapon. A few of my friends and co-workers carry frequently (legally, of course).

VibeChick · Post by **VibeChick** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:46 pm

Quote, originally posted by Stang2Vibe Â» And the rifle is a bit too long to keep stored in the Vibe. I'm getting my concealed carry permit soon and will probably buy a .45 semi-automatic or some sort of .38 or .357. But for now, I pretty much am my own weapon. A few of my friends and co-workers carry frequently (legally, of course).Wow,I don't know anybody who carries a gun - it's so different where I am!

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:58 pm

Yes, it's illegal to own/posess handguns in Canada. Here in the states, the second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms to the citizenry. See, the founding fathers were thinking ahead. This is sometimes referred to as the "reset button" on the Constitution. An armed public can force its government to "abandon ship" should it go too far astray. Also, it is nice for purposes of personal protection. Would YOU go trying to break into a house if you were a burglar and you thought that the people inside were sleeping next to loaded guns? Neither would I.There are MANY more legally armed people walking around every day in the U.S. than you might think. Makes one think twice about mugging and carjacking people, too.

VibeChick · Post by **VibeChick** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:05 pm

Yes, well, our government came up with the brilliant, expensive gun registry...cause all those criminals would register their guns before using them to commit crimes...

drunkenmaxx · Post by **drunkenmaxx** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:50 pm

i keep 215 lbs of drunken american whoopass with me at all times, for protection missouri is working on a carry and conceal law as we speak...

drunkenmaxx · Post by **drunkenmaxx** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:25 pm

if i have a gun and you have a bat, who wins?as soon as i feel threatened, my finger would squeeze the trigger, you car is mine, and your life is gone. you could have just gotten out and let the scumbag have the car.

Sub-Vibe-R · Post by **Sub-Vibe-R** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:29 pm

I do not carrie any weapon in my car... except the jack wrench in the trunck, which cannot be easilly reached.I ahve all I need on my. I have gaz pedal and my foot to go away, and in the worst case, I alway carrie my hands with me, those 2 things are very usefull.

Merzbow · Post by **Merzbow** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:10 am

How is this not a grown-up discussion...aparently "grown-ups" are responding to my post and they too keep weapons in thier cars so I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:32 am

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â»It is ironic. I do not think anyone here has been involved in a road rage situation with their vehilce and ended up hurt, except 1 member to my knowledge.I've been in more than one "road rage" situation where I've jumped out of the car at the other person. If they would have tangled with me, they would have gotten hurt.Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â»STANG has the right idea where to carry Pepper Spray, that is Self Defense to subdue the attacker, not shooting or hitting the dude or the head or leg and causing bodily harm. I think you have misunderstood me a bit. We aren't allowed to carry on my university's campus, so I carry what I can--the pepper spray. It would buy me a few seconds to disable the attacker and kick their a$$ for being such a stupid f*** as to screw with me like that. I'd much rather carry a gun so I could pop 'em in both legs before snapping their knee the wrong way so that they will remember every day what they did to deserve never being able to walk again. Would also prevent them from attacking someone in the future. Not many people in wheelchairs out there assulting people on the street. If the attacker has no concern for my well being and makes the choice to attack me, then I am going to have no concern for their well being and make them pay the price for it.

drunkenmaxx · Post by **drunkenmaxx** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:48 am

i am very non-violent. i avoid physical confrontation at all costs, even humiliation! defending a car is one stupid way to go...

VibeChick · Post by **VibeChick** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:01 am

Oh my god silverawd26, that's horrible! Sorry you had to go through that...I can't believe the things some people do.

Merzbow · Post by **Merzbow** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:06 am

We are growing up in a violent and hateful world, obviously we will be defensive about these things. I could easily hurt someone that I've never made contact with before if they did something that deserved it. I've never been in a physical fight before because I don't really have any enemies, I don't let anything bother me but when it comes to cars don't even try to start crap.Cars mean everything to me I don't know if any of you understand that feeling but I would be willing to risk my life to save my baby. You can call me and idiot all you want but that's how I feel. They are like children to me. I'm not going to let some bum steal my car beecause they're too d*mn lazy to work and buy one themself.If the thief had a gun I would probably surrender unless I saw an easy way to wrestle it from him...

drunkenmaxx · Post by **drunkenmaxx** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:50 am

say what you want, youve never been in a physical confrontation, i bet you'd back down...

ShotInTheDark · Post by **ShotInTheDark** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:48 am

I have a concealed carry permit for the state of maryland. When I worked on my uncles farm we did farmers markets and had to carry sometimes 5-6k in cash on us. I got the permit when I turned 18 but never really wanted to go out anywhere carrying a gun.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:31 am

Oh, boy, seems I have some clarifications to make.First off, joat, you really should meet me sometime. I am now 100% positive that your image of me is totally and completely wrong. I am not really full of anger and hate, I am just one of the most defensive people you will ever meet. I was always one of the quietest kids in school and I was picked on for years because I was smarter then all but a handful of kids in the school and I always screwed up the grading curve for everyone else. I'm not blowing my own horn here, I'm just trying to lend some background. When you score in the 99th percentile of the nation (top 1% of everyone who took the test that year) on the standardized tests in school for 13 consecutive years (K-12), you are expected by your family, teachers, and school counselors to do well in school. Well, kids don't understand this, all they understand is that they got a D on their test and now their dad is gonna whoop their (removed) when they get home because Brandon did well on his test and there was no curve applied. I spent most every day in school for a good 10 years in fear of what someone would say or do to me next. Toward the end of my senior year in high school, I learned that this is not the way to live and it doesn't have to be this way. I just don't take people's crap anymore and I'm much happier. I swore to myself that I would never live in fear of another human being again for as long as I live and, so far, I've been successful and don't plan on changing. You didn't live my life and have to put up with everything that I did in mine. If you had, then you'd be singing a much different tune about me. Did your father die suddenly of a heart attack two days after your 7th birthday? Mine did. Then the two closest people to me in my life, my grandmother and grandfather who were an integral part of raising me, died 3 years after that, 2 1/2 months apart from each other. My mother lost her job due to a corporate merger that closed her office in this city when I was 12. She had to find a part time job somewhere and put herself through school to start a new career while still being a full time single mother of two children, 12 and 9 years old when she herself was 38. My mother is a great inspiration to me, if she could finish school in the face of such adversity, then so can I, especially since I don't currently have half of the problems that she did at that time. When I was 16, I worked 2 days a week at a nearby fast food restauraunt where I was generally given all the work that nobody else wanted to do and all the nasty jobs. While some of my friends at the time and other kids I knew in school would sneak into their parents purses or wallets at night to get money to go out or buy stuff, I was sneaking into my mom's purse at night to put money INTO her wallet so she would have some money for lunch at school the next day. I had to watch and take care of my younger sister when my mom had night classes or had to study for exams, so there were many times that I couldn't go out with my friends and do things that I wanted to do. Sometimes I had to make dinner for my sister and myself because my mom had to go straight from work to school and didn't have time to make it home in between. Other kids got to goof off, go out drinking, go to the malls, movies, etc., but I had responsibilities and other things that had to be done and that is just the way it had to be. I had to become a quasi-adult at about the age of 10.I am also a very caring and compassionate person. When our dog ate a half pound of ground coffee and had to go to the veternary hospital for 3 days, I was the only one who went every day after school to visit her. She was my best friend from the time I picked her out as a puppy to the time we had to give her away because my mom remarried and my stepdad is allergic to animals and refused to take medication for it. I've constantly had things that were very important to me taken away from me in situations that were well beyond my control. I'm not going to put up with people trying to take my dignity. I'm also very good with children. I've babysat for neighbors and relatives before, now I sometimes help out my girlfriend and her mom when my g/f's neice and nephew visit on their weekly visit to grandma's house. I've been told many times over the last several years by parents that I'll make an excellent father some day because I'm so good with kids. I'd love to be the father to my children that I never got to have for myself. I even had to help out my last remaining grandparent for the last few years of her life. When my grandma lived alone in her house, I used to go over and do her yardwork in the summer during weeks when I was working 70+ hours per week already. When it came time that she had to move into a semi-retirement home, guess who showed up to help her move? Me and my one uncle, that's it. My grandma had 5 living children and about 24 grandchildren at the time and me and my uncle were the only two people who showed up to help out the person who had a very important role in raising us all. She was diagnosed with terminal cancer on Valentines' Day in 1998. The doctors told us that she would have only about 4-5 weeks to live, at the most, because the cancer had spread so bad. She fought it until she was finally called Home on September 30th, 6 1/2 months past the max that she was expected to live. I had the honor and priveledge of doing my best to comfort her in any way that I could during the last months of her life. My life was changed in ways that I cannot describe by the way that I saw her live and die.I would strongly encourage you to more carefully consider what you say to people on here sometimes before making blatantly flippant assumptions about them. You and I have just about polar opposite ideas regarding politics and some aspects of life, but I do not hate you. I do not attempt to insult you and I do not draw ridiculous and hurtful assumptions about you. We both seem to tend toward viewing and discussing things in an intellectual way, even when our viewpoints clash. That's fine with me, I'm always up to the task of a good intellectual or political challenge, but keep it above the belt. It's not the discussion of things like politics and religion that make for bitter an angry conversations and debate, it is the pot-shots.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»I hope it's just talking big, do you really feel that way, I mean, deep down, do you really feel you can shoot, cripple, maim people and feel good about doing it?To answer your question, no. I'm not that way at all. I'm not some sicko who thinks that they are living in a Grand Theft Auto game. I have never in my life started a fight with someone, but I've ended every one that I have been in. I don't go around looking for trouble because I think it is a fun thing to do. That's not me. But when trouble finds me, I'm ready, willing, and able to stand up to it. I don't find it fun, but I do view it as necessary sometimes. For every fight/confrontation that I've been in, I've probably walked away from 100 others. I am a reactive, rather than a proactive type of person. You get back from me what you throw toward me. That is what I mean when I talk about not putting up with people's crap. And I don't "talk big". The words don't leave my mouth if I haven't got the goods to back it up. That's my own personal policy.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»You misunderstood silver. He is that one member he was talking about.Yes, I apparantly did and I apologize for that. I had forgotten about the heinous acts that were commited against him and his mother. What happened to him should never have happened and I am most highly insulted that you could associate me with that kind of behavior. I'm not some
renegade nut case going out to try and run people over with my car because of a traffic incident. That is far too petty for me.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»You talk like that guy acted.No I don't. If you want to properly interject me into Rob's unfortunate scenario, you would have to put me into his shoes. Again, I am a reactive person. I would not be the one whipping the car around, fleeing the scene of a crime, or throwing the first punch. I once told someone who was instigating with me to go ahead and throw the first punch and that they had better make it a good one because it will be the last thing that they remember doing before they wake up. I should say that I have been taught a few self defense techniques that are illegal to teach in this country, and that is all I am going to say regarding that. So no, I'm not really afraid of people and I've found that I've been able to solve more problems by standing up to certain people rather than walking away from them.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»next time you go into road rage mode, I hope you can live with the consequences.Like I've already said, ready, willing, and able. But you are telling this to the wrong person. You should be saying this to the person who wants to jump out of their car and fight me. I'll get out and yell and scream, but I would never hit someone unless I was acting in self defense.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»Me, I'm a pacifist. I don't carry weapons. I seek to avoid situations where I would need them.That's fine. It is your right to feel this way and I'm not going to try and take that away from you. I also make every sensible attempt to avoid dangerous situations, that is only common sense. But when you have to park your car next to the worst area of town to go to school and return to it late at night, the situation has kinda found you. If you want to know why some people carry weapons, then you should find the worst part of the largest city near you and walk around there late at night with a big sign around your neck that says "I'm a pacifist. I don't carry weapons." and see how long you last. If you've ever been taught anything about self defense, you would first learn to aviod confrontational situations whenever possible. Then they teach you that when risky situations cannot be avioded, make yourself appear to be the worst possible target for a criminal. Be alert and aware of your surroundings and look like you are. I'm about 240 pounds and if I go walking to my car late at night with a bit of a scowl on my face and a little squint in my eye as I scan my surroundings, Mr. Criminal hiding in the alleyway is more likely to leave me alone and wait for an easier looking victim to come by. There are non-violent ways to help prevent yourself from being a victim. I prefer to go that route before having to face an attacker.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:11 am

Rob, what happened to you was absolutely horrible and should not have happened. I can assure you that if it was me in that situation, I would have handled it differently just because that is the way that I am. And I am not judging you in any way.Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â»Next time you do nothing, stop at a intersection and yield to on coming traffic, the idiot behind you gets out of your car, approahes your window and he starts to curse at you and you tell him to get back into his car. At the same time you say that, the man throws 3-4 punches into the left side of your jawThis wouldn't happen to me because the moment I see Mr. A-hole open his door, I'm getting out of my car. This guy is going to be less prone to physical assault against me if I'm in a better position to defend myself or hurt him in return. I'd already be yelling, screaming, and swearing back at the top of my lungs. A little foaming at the mouth wouldn't hurt either, even crazy people don't want to mess with other crazy looking people. If you are in your car in this case, there is nothing you can do to defend yourself other than to punch the gas and take off. If you're out of the car, you have more options available to you if confrontation is inevitable.Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â»your mother is in another vehicle watching this. She drives up and yells at the idiot and the idiot does a 180 degree turn and very quickly moves towards your mother. So by instincts your mother is going to get hurt, you get out and saying you are calling the police, the idiot then knocks the cell phone out of your hand and puches you again 5 more times in the jawOk, nobody, and I mean nobody messes with my Momma and gets away with it. If I'm out of the car already and Mr. A-hole does his 180 to confront mom, I just bear tackled him and am grinding his empty head into the pavement at that point, ESPECIALLY if this guy has already repeatedly swung at me. There should be no court in this land that would condemn you for protecting your mother from a madman, especially if you are using non-lethal force. Now with me on top of this guy doing whatever I need to do to restrain him, I let my mom make the phone call. At this point, I am having no regard for this guy's well being, so anything goes. I might have my mom pepper spray this guy if necessary or pretend that I have a gun in the car and ask my mom to go get it. I'm going to do everything I can to keep this guy down and to inflict pain on him if he continues to struggle until the police decide to show up. This way there are no people getting run over with vans, no Dukes of Hazzard chases to get liscence plate numbers, and best of all, no surgeries or physical therapy (well, for me or mom anyway).Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â»Yeah, sounds very familiar right?Actually, yes it somewhat does. When I was a baby, my mom and her father were in the car going somewhere when some lunatic felt that my grandfather cut him off in traffic or something like that. The guy jumps out of his car and comes up to my grandfather's window yelling and screaming and took a swing at him. At the time, my grandfather was an elderly man who had a brain tumor that wasn't diagnosed yet and was somewhat sickly at the time. My mom got out the passenger side of the car, went around to the other side of the car yelling at the guy and punched him right in the face. She kept after him until he retreated to his car and drove off. If you go nuts and make the other guy think that he bit off more than he can chew, he will most likely back off. Sit there and take it, and he'll keep giving it.Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â»You do not want to be in that guys shoes when he was arrested at his house in front of his family and spend a day or 2 in jail.No I don't, I want to be the one who puts Mr. A-hole in those shoes, though. And only a day or two in jail? You need to get a good lawyer.Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â»Court his not pleasant for him, especially when the idoit had to do anger management classes and was charged with assault and battery. That will follow him the rest of his life, plus any civil actions that are taken against him.Good for him. That's what I say. Only they should also charge assault with at deadly weapon since the car was used to inflict injury. You really need to have a good lawyer handle this. If I were you, when I was through with this guy, I'd never want for anything for the rest of my life. Unless he didn't have insurance, which would be another serious charge and brings the count up to two charges so far that carry mandatory jail sentences.I really do hope that you fully recover from this insane incident. You don't deserve to suffer the effects of this for the rest of your life. That would be a terrible shame. And I hope that your lawyers can fully recover all your damages for you plus punitive damages.

Merzbow · Post by **Merzbow** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:07 pm

Puts things into perspective doesn't it?I would not have the slightest problem injuring someone if they inflicted or tried to inflict pain on me or someone I knew...If they tried to touch my mom I would go insane and probably come close to killing them. First off, anyone that trys to attack a woman needs to be killed but when they attack a mother right in front of their kid...that's rediculous....who ever does that needs to suffer more than 2 days in prison...Wheather you like it or not, some people deserve to suffer...I don't think they deserve to die.

VibeChick · Post by **VibeChick** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:12 pm

Personally, I hope that if I was in a situation like that that I would have the guts to do what Stang describes. Training is supposed to help, but you never really know how you will react until it happens. When you are caught off guard, anything can happen. When I am in the ring facing an opponent, different story - I know what is about to happen, and I am prepared to react.Just my two cents.

VibeChick · Post by **VibeChick** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:26 pm

Who are you asking? I'm not sure..

VibeChick · Post by **VibeChick** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:41 pm

joatmon, I agree with you on this topic. I am not always the most patient person - but I am not violent at all. In fact, I consider myself to be quite courteous. I have yet to experience road rage - sure, I get irritated like everyone else, but what does it really cost you to let the jerk cut in front of you. Certainly not the cost of a car repair or you life.I have had one friend who was attacked by someone in a road rage incident. I only hope that I would protect myself and get away...I could never stand there and cripple someone, no matter how mad I was. It's just not in my nature.

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:25 pm

just ask silverawd how road rage can affect your life and even your future! not worth it!

shibaman · Post by **shibaman** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:48 pm

When I had my Pathfinder I carried a Cold Steel shovel under the seat. I used it to dig the truck out of mud, snow etc. It was sharpend to cut wood and limbs on bad guys. Too big for the Vibe so now I have my Cold Steel Recon Scout knife under the seat. It will take off limbs very easily.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:34 pm

Ok, I can see why you would think I was going overboard with the violence, I didn't make myself quite clear enough when I first went into this. First of all, I would never jump out of my car with the intent to maim someone for life just because I felt that they cut me off, drove too slow, etc. Let that kind of behavior be reserved for people with serious mental issues. Like I said, I might get out and scream and yell like all hell, but I wouldn't touch another person in anger unless they touched me first or I genuinely felt that I was in a position where I was physically threatened and had no other immediate means of escape. I am pretty well aware of my legal rights in most situations and I don't intend to be sued by some moron who can't drive because I smacked them around unnecessarily. No, no, no, that's not me at all.I would save the bending knees in unnatural positions stuff only for extreme circumstances. Things like if an attacker jumps out of a dark alley with a weapon type of stuff. If they just get away with my wallet and maybe beat me up a little because I gave in to them, then they are just going to do it again and again to other people, and may possibly be even more violent with them. You put that kind of miscreant in a wheelchair for life, and they won't be jumping out of alleyways hurting and robbing people anymore. Theoretically, that person's next victim could be your mother or sister. I would feel horrible for the rest of my life if I found out that something like that had happenened and I could have prevented it, even if I had to take the fall for it.Also, if someone attacked or threatened to attack my mom right in front of me, I would just see red and instantly be in overdrive mode. It's bull in a china shop time. And if I feel that my life or the life of a friend or relative is in eminent peril at the hands of an assailant, you'd better believe that I'm gonna take a shot at 'em if I've got one. It's all reactionary, just like I stated before. When you escilate the level of violence against someone, expect them to return the action.And to make one last clarification, I'm no Chuck Norris bad a$$ prize fighter or anything like that. I'm just a regular guy going about his daily business who happens to be able to defend himself by more than one means. I hope this clears some things up for ya there, joatmon.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:01 am

I feel like I'm trying to explain this to Ned Flanders.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»Who are you to decide that it is ok to cripple a criminal?Umm... the innocent guy getting attacked because he has something that some lowlife loser wants to take because he won't go out and earn it himself? Who are you to tell me that I can't defend myself or my family from the violent actions of a criminal committing a crime and prevent it from happening to me or some other innocent person again?Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»What gives you the right to mutilate a person because they "might" do it again?Think about this; if every thug on the street never ever encountered any resistance to what they are doing, do you think that they are going to stop doing it? Do you think that that would produce more or less violent crimes in this country?Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»Because you lose control, see red, go into overdrive modeIt is definately considered into the totality of the circumstances in court cases. If someone was violently attacking your innocent child or mother right before you, are you just going to stand there and say "oh please stop that, mister. This kind of violence isn't going to help you any. Really, it isn't necessary to shoot my mother/child in the head right in front of me. Oh, mr. criminal, that was not a very nice thing to do, you shouldn't do things like that...". What does that do? Gets people killed. Then if the guy gets away, he's most likely going to go kill someone else before he is caught. Sorry, I'm not going to stand around watching my wife/child/mother getting beat for no reason by a criminal, that is completely insane! Look at Silver's situation. If that guy started throwing punches at his mom after he swung at him, should Silver have just sat there in his car and watched? What the hell kind of messed up thinking is that? What do you think about that, Silver? Should you have just sat in your car and watched? You didn't and you shouldn't have. And neither would I!Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»that is supposed to make it ok?In the eyes of the law, your are fully permitted to use violent actions that are equivalent to or less than those which are being committed against you to defend yourself. Again, the totality of the situation will be considered to determine if certain actions would constitute excessive force for the given incident.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»Instead of preaching your violent vigilantismI have never preached or advocated vigilanteism. In fact, I don't "preach" anything. I'm expressing my opinins just as you are expressing yours. Unforntunately, for whatever reason, you feel that you must judge me and every opinion that I hold and then directly lambast me for it. If you want to play that game with me, you've more than met your match. Only I play the game a little differently; I may form judgements, viewpoints, and opinions on things, but I don't forcibly impose them upon others. As for the vigilanteism, I don't generally support or advocate that sort of "justice". I DO advocate self-defense. Very big difference. I don't go out looking for wrongs to right by beating up on those that I believe to be criminals. But when attacked by one, I'm most likely going to be fighting back. That does not make me a vigilante by the definition of the word.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»Violence is not cool.I agree completely. I rarely go to see movies in theaters because of this. I also don't want to financially support most of the Hollywood loudmoths who get up on their bully pulpits and spew out a bunch of garbage that they don't know enough about. But that's another whole conversation right there that I'm not going to go into here. Violence is never a good thing, but sometimes a necessary thing. Again, big difference.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»Crippling someone out of anger is something to be ashamed of, not publicly advocated.I generally agree here as well. Please tell me, at what point in my statments did I state, explicitly or implicitly, that everyone should go out and bust people up when they get angry. I didn't. Those are words that you are trying to put in my mouth that were never there. You seem to follow a pattern of doing this in your debates. Not a good tactic, it drains credibility.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»I know I won't convert you to my way of thinkingLOL. Never, ever, ever, so help me God! It is a natural human tendency to do this, so it is nothing to be ashamed of. It is actually the critical part of the learning process so it's not really a bad thing. You are trying to gain converts to your thought scheme through debate whether you recognize it or not. That's ok because it happens with me too. And most everyone else as well. It is the true purpose of debate and the presentation of conflicting ideas. It is just not frequently cited openly as a goal.Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»Just explaining how I see it.Same as what I'm doing. We are both free to do this and I'm not about to try and take that right away from anyone.LOL. By this point, everyone reading these posts has to be saying to themselves, "Oh God. Stang and joat are at it again in the off-topic forum". I can't speak for anyone else, but I would like for all to understand that I don't hate joat, nor do I really even dislike him. I may strongly dislike some of what he says or what some of his viewpoints contain, but I separate that from the person. If everyone just always let everything that they encounter go unopposed, we would lead ourselves to anarchy very quickly. I should also say that there is no hatred developing from this debate, at least not from this side. When joat and I "go at it" sometimes, I'm not doing it to be a blowhard or anything like that. We discuss our perspectives on things that are sometimes diametrically opposed, but we are learning from each other, at least I am. The fact of the matter is that, when I look back at the majority of what we post here, we agree on more things than we disagree. It's just that when we disagree on things, I think we like to discuss it mostly to see why that is so. We're just thinking about the subject on a deeper level because it is something that interests us. We aren't attacking each other personally. I just wanted to clear that up so readers of these posts don't get the wrong idea.

Merzbow · Post by **Merzbow** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:38 am

I agree with your viewpoints 100% stang so I understand what you're saying. I don't get road rage though so if I fought it wouldn't be from road rage.Joatman...Everyone has the right to do anything they want...just like the ciminal has the right to attack someone...you have the right to prevent it....our government and law system is the only thing preventing this right. For some reason when ever you talk about fighting people assume the only reason you fight is to boast about it and try to seem cool and bad-a$$. I don't thikn I've ever met ANYONE that fought to look cool or to brag about it, well maybe one of two people, but obivously their maturity level was extremely low.Fighting is almost EXACTLY like a parent scolding their child. Why does a parent yell at their child? So the child doesn't do what it did wrong again right? That's how I look at fighting. If you hurt someone that did something to deserve it, than it's like saying "hey don't do it again becuase there are other people like me that will hurt you again" So chances are after one or two times of a criminal getting punished for his/her actions, than they're going to stop, unless they are completely stupid.Once again, I have never been in a physical fight becuase I am an outgoing kind of guy. But if it came down to it I would do it and I wouldn't think twice. I gues to each his own...just my own thoughts on it.

rasermon · Post by **rasermon** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 8:10 am

Well, in Michigan it is legal for anyone -- civilian or police officer -- to use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon.

mwebb · Post by **mwebb** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:20 am

I am first to defend myself or someone I care about- But as for my car, no thanks- I love cars- But if someone wants my car and has a weapon you have to assume that they are willing to use to use itIt is stupid as hell to say you are going to defned your car, and if the criminal has a gun, look for a way to wrestle it from him...come on...Risk getting shot or stabbed for a car? THAT IS WHY THEIR IS CAR INSURANCE!I own weapons but I never carry them in my car- I work in a pretty bad area- and sometimes I work the third shift- But once again I am the only weapon in my car- willing to defend myself - but not any of my cars

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