The Quarterly Supercharger Post.

[satur9]

its technically possible to have both. but the money involved to make it work makes it impracticle ,esspecialy on a vibe.

[drummerdude]

can any of the extremely technical minded people on here explain how it would have to be done on the 2zz engine? I know you'd probably have to drop about 10 or 15 gs into it.

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by drummerdude »can any of the extremely technical minded people on here explain how it would have to be done on the 2zz engine? I know you'd probably have to drop about 10 or 15 gs into it.I don't know if any of those people will respond, but my uneducated impression is that with the 2zz engine's compression ratio, it is possible to over super or turbo charge the induction beyond the point the engine can handle, so if used together they would both need to be tuned down a lot. The same gains could be obtained with just one of the options without the complexity of running both at the same time. If you had 10 to 15 gs to put into making a vibe ultra powerful, it would probably be best invested in a different engine and tranny. Hopefully someone can disagree.

[Faultline]

Quote, originally posted by drummerdude »can any of the extremely technical minded people on here explain how it would have to be done on the 2zz engine? I know you'd probably have to drop about 10 or 15 gs into it.1st of all I wont pretend to be mr gearhead....I forgot to mention that Blitz has a SC for the 2zz and so does a UK ou fit call Japspeed, the latter is a centrifugal stlye, which is like a turbo ran with belts.I guess the question is "why?" why an sc and a turbo?...just pic one or the other, then spend the extra $ strenthening the motor, and tranny to handle high boost...either could get you to 400hp with the right size, or even higher...the trick and expense is getting the rest of the car able to cope with the power..motor: stonger rods and pistons, lower compression, tranny upgrades, transaxle upgrade, bigger clutch..suspension up grades, bigger brake kit...heart attack prevention pills

[drummerdude]

The point i would like to get my car to is when a corvette zo6 pulls up and i rev he thinks i have a 4 banger with an exhaust until he realizes at the next light that he was beat so bad that he doesn't even get to the light and just turns around, goes home, and cries because he has no idea what happened and he's extremely dissapointed in himself.

[Faultline]

Quote, originally posted by drummerdude »The point i would like to get my car to is when a corvette zo6 pulls up and i rev he thinks i have a 4 banger with an exhaust until he realizes at the next light that he was beat so bad that he doesn't even get to the light and just turns around, goes home, and cries because he has no idea what happened and he's extremely dissapointed in himself.yeah..and all those tears knowing he paid over twice as much for his car!

[MadBill]

Quote, originally posted by drummerdude »can any of the extremely technical minded people on here explain how it would have to be done on the 2zz engine? I know you'd probably have to drop about 10 or 15 gs into it. I expect Faultline can fill in some specifics here re the Vibe, but I'll take a crack at both the above and the prior question re using both a supercharger and a turbo.Both do the same thing: pressurize the intake to force in more fuel and air. The main difference is one is driven by the crankshaft and the other by exhaust gases. The first limit on power increase is generally the compression ratio, as the boost results in much higher cylinder pressures, so too much boost causes abnormal combustion (detonation, etc.) and damaged parts.Since a typical modern engine has a quite high compression ratio, the limit is often only 6-8 psi without an intercooler, maybe 10-12 with, good for perhaps a 40% power increase for the former and up to ~60-70% for the latter. Because of its ultra-high 11.5:1 CR, it's a challenge to safely add any boost to the 2ZZ engine, so the first requirement for a serious set up would be custom heavy duty low compression pistons*. Next, a high boost supercharger, and even more so, a high pressure turbo, really need quite different cams to give their best. (A typical all-out turbo surprisingly uses quite mild cam timings), so again the 2ZZ is all wrong with its extreme duration high RPM cams. Once these issues have been addressed, it becomes a matter of fixing the weak links one after another as the boost is raised. (Perhaps in sequence clutch, transmission, head gasket, valves, rods, head bolts, block, etc.) With these all addressed it's pretty much "the sky's the limit". For example, GM offers a build manual for assembling a 1,000 HP 2.2 L. Ecotec engine for a Cavalier.*An exception is if you are prepared to take on the challenges of burning alcohol. It about triples fuel consumption and is quite corrosive, requiring many new fuel handling materials, but it has very high octane and tremendous evaporative cooling effects. Drag racers run as much as 50 psi boost at 11:1 CR without intercooling!Addressing the "why not both?" question, many superchargers are capable of up to 40 psi and a single turbo can give close to 60. Since the Cavalier build up above needs less than 40 psi to reach triple digit power, it's pretty clear the only reason to use both would be for appearance. >End Technobabble Alert

[NY Pete]

OK, the real question is has ANYBODY with a Matrix 5-speed installed the supercharger yet? Somebody must have, I want a review! C'MON!!!!Pete

[Faultline]

there is a good one over in Forced Induction w/ dynos and everythingQuote, originally posted by NY Pete »OK, the real question is has ANYBODY with a Matrix 5-speed installed the supercharger yet? Somebody must have, I want a review! C'MON!!!!Pete

[Faultline]

In regards to using both, I could see ,for example , using a very small turbo that spools up immidiately and flattens out at the high end , whose purpose is to get you to the very large centrifugal SC that spikes huge power at the high end...or how about an eaton roots SC that makes the low end power and a huge turbo that only spools up at the highend...This sequential idea in both models , is to have a wider band of boosted power..

[drummerdude]

Some how i knew madbill would be the one who would be able to explain how and why someone would want to do this... after i saw the picture of him sawing at his wheel bolts for his new tires and wheels i knew that he was one of those that doesn't care as long as it looks cool and runs hellafast!

[MadBill]

Ya Dude, you've got me pegged!

[wicked1981]

I know I asked this before but still no answer so lets try again!!!!!!!!Do I get to keep using the CAI? Do I have to remove it for instalation and put the normal air box? Can I use the CAI with the supercharger? Any mods that I will need to make to have both?

[MadBill]

Hopefully some one will provide a first-hand answer, but the first we heard was that they would not fit. Later someone said that with some minor tweaking they would. The concensus is that it should be worth the effort to make it fit, since the CAI would be worth even more with the SC, due to the added air flow and thus worse restriction from the stock system.

[greenfire]

The CAI will fit with some configuring. I have an Injen CAI that I use in the summer. However!! TRD does not recomend the use of a CAI with the SC. Its written all over the papers. Furthermore another SC Matirx owner reporded engine pinging when the temps got cooler. Colder air is more dense, alowing more air to go in.. possibly causing the maf sensor to nor read properly(as per Larry) Apparently higher octane gas is the fix for this. I took mine off for the winter and will use it in the summer because it looks and sounds sweet. Overall I dont see too much of a power improvement with it. The air intake on the SC setup scoops in the air from the same location. My recomendation is to sell the CAI and pop in a K&D or similar air filter into the stock air box.

[wicked1981]

Well then I think I might have an Injen CAI for sale in about 2 months then.

[greenfire]

Do you have a Vibe? See what Pontiac's official word is on the matter. Then make you decision. You can always just use it in the summer. BTW everything I said is based on theory, I dont think anyone has actually found out why TRD says NO.

[wicked1981]

Yes, I do have a Vibe so I will wait and see if anyone know more about this.. Hopefully so if not waisted money and time on the CAI.

[Faultline]

Quote, originally posted by greenfire »Do you have a Vibe? See what Pontiac's official word is on the matter. Then make you decision. You can always just use it in the summer. BTW everything I said is based on theory, I dont think anyone has actually found out why TRD says NO.It may be as simple as worrying about sucking up water, since they warranty the sc...If they ok the CAI and someone sucks up water from the lowere air intake, then they have to blah , blah , blah??? just a guess.... I cannot see that it would be anything but better to have one on....better airflow=lower intake temps..

[drunkenmaxx]

Quote, originally posted by MadBill » For example, GM offers a build manual for assembling a 1,000 HP 2.2 L. Ecotec engine for a Cavalier./B] **long list of obscenities, continuing on for five minutes**that would be scary!

[tbm34]

Quote, originally posted by greenfire »Do you have a Vibe? See what Pontiac's official word is on the matter. Then make you decision. You can always just use it in the summer. BTW everything I said is based on theory, I dont think anyone has actually found out why TRD says NO.On the SC installation instructions avalable on the GM Performance web site it specifically states "Do not use any aftermarket "Cold Air Intake" kits with theSupercharger. The OE air filter housing and the OE mass airflow sensor are critical for the correct air/fuel ratio calibrationwith the Supercharger. The use of any aftermarket "Cold AirIntake" kits will void the Supercharger warranty and also thevehicle powertrain warranty."From reading post on Matrixowners, the CAI will fit with the supercharger, but with the forced induction there seems to be little added advantage to using a CAI, except for the sound which some people seem to really enjoy. It is probably best just to get the TRD high performance air filter for the stock airbox.Do you have a Base auto or 5-spd manual Vibe?

[MadBill]

From that matrix SC post a month or so ago, it's clear that the SC fuel calibration is very rich, presumably to keep piston and valve temperatures down. For reasons too complex to go into here, a CAI is likely to lean out the mixture , thus cutting into this safety margin and making it a factory no-no.Durability apart, a stock air cleaner system will be an even bigger restriction with the additional ~40% air flow of an SC, so a CAI should add boost and gain more power than on a stock engine. (note that that SC 'trix picked up a bunch of power just from leaning out the calibration...)

[Larry]

I put the TRD CAI back on a week ago. The car seems much more responsive with it on and the sound is great. I'm getting a dyno tomorrow to check the a/f ratio. If it's too lean, I'll get it retuned to compensate. I have an aftermarket air/fuel controller. I'll post the dyno up here tomorrow so at least we'll know for sure if there is a power gain with it. I tried to find out specifically what problem TRD had with it but couldn't get an answer. I haven't had a CEL. It's possible that it's for emission reasons rather than quality issues as to why they say to not use it.

[wicked1981]

Thanks for the update cant wait to see the dyno results.

[Larry]

Quote, originally posted by wicked1981 »Thanks for the update cant wait to see the dyno results.Started a new thread here: http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=8467