starter sticking in cold weather?

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 4:37 am

Now that the weather has started to turn nasty (-25C, brrrrrrr) I've noticed that the starter on my Vibe seems to be sticking. You know, that aweful noise that comes from trying to start a car that's already running. It's fine when the car is already warm or when the temp outside isn't too cold. But once the temp hits about -15C, I get that aweful grinding noise no matter how quickly I let off the key when the car is cold started. Doesn't matter if the block heater was plugged in or not. Anyone else experience this problem?

FreddyMatrix · Post by **FreddyMatrix** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:09 am

I have exactly the same problem... (I have a Matrix XR AWD...)I'll go to my dealer as soon as I can in order to make them check that noise... but it will be hard to reproduce the situation at the dealer because the car has to be cold... so I guess I'll have to let the car in their parking lot all night.But it doesn't seem to be the battery... it's full charged and it seem to work fine at -26 Celcius (Quebec City)...

coratz · Post by **coratz** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 6:06 am

might need just to be shimmed properly

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 6:09 am

Mine seems very sluggish when I start it in cold weather, but both times this happened the temp was only -11C. My Cavalier didn't seem so sluggish when starting in cold weather. But different engines, so I shouldn't expect them to be the same. I haven't tried starting it in anything below -11 yet. Might get that lovely opportunity tomorrow.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 7:53 am

I got this from a post by Nsimkins in another thread, but you can view vehicle problems here: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 8:07 am

I have a friend who has a 2003 Toyota Corolla and is experiencing the same problem. I assume that since the Vibe and Corolla share the same engine they likely share the same starter too?

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 8:11 am

Well it is much colder in Canada usually. Tomorrow's high is supposed to be -15 c!

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 8:20 am

Side air bags are optional. I had to pay for mine with the safety security package. I would say that the weather in Montreal and Toronto isn't all that similar - Montreal tends to get a lot more snow than Toronto. Toronto tends to be a few degrees warmer than Ottawa (normally). Sub-Vibe-R could probably tell you more on Montreal weather!

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 9:01 am

I don't think my battery is the problem. There is no hesitation on the start, it turns over right away. The starter just doesn't seem to kick out as quickly as it should when you release the key. But only at cold temps, which makes me wonder if there's a condensation/freezing problem or something. I'll be taking it in for scheduled maintenance next week so will ask the dealer to have a look. Guess they'll have to leave it parked all day before checking though so it's nice and cold. Appreciate the comments, I'll post if they find anything.

robdog · Post by **robdog** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 9:42 pm

My Vibe GT is sluggish on cold mornings as well, it doesn't make any noise it just doesn't crank nearly as fast as it should, especially since the car is only 3 months old...

yooper_bob · Post by **yooper_bob** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 1:24 am

i've had a similar problem on my GT when we had a real cold spell in SE MI back in Dec. I happened to notice it only when the temps outside (according to the in-dash display) were in the single digits (Looks like the weather may be getting cold enough so I can bring it back to the dealer. BobMono Shadow GT

Post by **NSimkins** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 1:45 am

This may not be 100% directly related, but there have been other discussions relating to the low CCA-rated (Cold Cranking Amps) battery and the performance of starting the vehicle in cold weather. See the following threads for more information:http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id ... d=790Let's hope it's just battery-related. Wouldn't be good if other parts of the vehicle relating to starting the vehicle start to go bad. A battery is cheaper to replace anyways.

FreddyMatrix · Post by **FreddyMatrix** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:52 am

Any update here?? What about you cds22??

yooper_bob · Post by **yooper_bob** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:31 pm

good news!just got my vehicle back from the dealer and they had reproduced the problem and replaced my starter. They did say there was a service bulletin on this. Not sure if the problem is fixed, as the temps this morning were not low enough to where the problem originally came up. Bob Mono Shadow GT

Shadow Realm · Post by **Shadow Realm** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:58 am

Please keep us updated on this! Thank you for all the info on your problem.

FreddyMatrix · Post by **FreddyMatrix** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:54 am

Thanks a lot Bob!

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:34 am

quote:Any update here?? What about you cds22??Sorry for the slow reply, had to make an unscheduled road trip for work and didn't have access to the internet for a few days. And, due to the road trip I had to cancel my scheduled dealer service and just stop by a fast lube for an oil change instead. So, I won't have an update on my starter problem until it's due for another service at the dealership.

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:37 am

quote:They did say there was a service bulletin on this. Bob Mono Shadow GTThanks for the info Bob! Do you happen to know what the service bulletin # is? That would probably be helpful when I take mine in for service the next time.

935684 · Post by **935684** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 7:48 am

I'm having the sluggish starting problem, also. I was originally going to ask Salsa about this. He lives in a climate similar to mine.Whenever the temp drops, my AWD turns over very slowly, and turns over between 4 and 8 times before it starts, regardless of having been warmed by the block heater. At -36 C (-32 F), it seemed as if it would fail to start, even though it had been plugged in for 4 hours.My GM dealer says both the battery and block heater are "OK". I got to the point where I just didn't believe him, so yesterday I went to a nearby Toyota service department. They ran an AVR check and continuity check on the block heater. They assured me that the results showed no problem.The tech told me that, since the Vibe/Matrix/Corolla have variable valve timing, this is a common phenomenon. He said the sensors have to take some seconds to detect conditions.This problem never occurs when the engine is warm, or when the outside temp is moderate. One day, my dealer kept my car overnight, and lent me a Sunfire. I didn't plug the Sunfire in. It was about -15 C that night, and it started the next morning instantly.At this point, I don't know who or what to believe.

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:27 pm

I have noticed that my Vibe cranks slow on cold mornings also. It hasn't slowed or not started, but it does seem odd that it is slow cranking. I seen this post and I think it may be something we should both check out: http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=2021 I hope that helps. It makes sense that this could be a solution.

935684 · Post by **935684** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:56 pm

Thanks for the link to that thread. Pix Doc's message has been very helpful, and it confirms my suspicion.Interestingly, my GM dealer has offered to order and install a new battery, even though he maintained that my battery was OK. I told him to get the new one. He said it might take some time, as they have to "wait until one is available". That made me wonder whether GM is such a small operation that dealers can't lay their hands on a replacement battery within a few days. Then again, maybe they're receiving so many complaints that they've run short of replacement batteries.In any case, should they be unable to replace it soon, I'll go to Sears, Wal-mart or Canadian Tire, and buy one myself. I'll use the information that Pix Doc gave us, and try to get one with the highest possible CCA capacity.

Shadow Realm · Post by **Shadow Realm** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:30 am

Shouldn't take them but a few days at the most to get their hands on your replacement battery.

yooper_bob · Post by **yooper_bob** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:16 am

Ahh yes. -2deg F this morning and try to start my car... lo and behold the familiar sound of a "grinding" starter. Actually it seemed to last noticably longer this time. Anyways had the car towed to the dealer (dealer's charge) so they could listen to a cold start themselves. Did find out more about the earlier fix. The starter replacement was a recommendation from Pontiac's (or GM's) Technical Assistance Center(TAC) that the techs call with unknown problems. Apparently, TAC claimed this was the first incident they've heard of, then suggested to replace the starter. Anyways, see what words of wisdom come about this time. BTW, How many unresoved service calls for the same problem does it take to enact the lemon law?Bob

yooper_bob · Post by **yooper_bob** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:42 am

here's the latest...got a call from the dealer that my car was fixed. They had fixed the starter relay this time (from suggested by TAC). Well went to pick it up this morning, and the same thing. Talked w/ the service mgr. and he told me they don't have any other ideas to fix the problem. I'm not too happy with that answer.

Frosty · Post by **Frosty** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:50 am

quote:I'm not too happy with that answer. I guess not!Some musings....Are there no GM types lurking out there that can help out with these issues? Does the shadow know what to do?Lee has a unresolved fast idle as well. They have been to the top on their trouble, no resolution. Not looking forward to any problems....Been lucky so far.

TGebiV · Post by **TGebiV** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:11 am

my car will do it every once and a while for a second? only when it is cold

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:26 am

Yesterday at -25, without having it plugged in, my car had to think about starting up. But it did, just not very quickly. Possibly if I had it plugged in, it would have started up right off the bat.

935684 · Post by **935684** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:32 am

Here's the latest information on my sluggish starting problem in cold weather.Two weeks ago, the service department volunteered that they'd replace my battery, in spite of the fact that they said there was nothing wrong with it. I thought that was rather strange. If there were nothing wrong with the battery, why would they voluntarily incur the expense to replace it? They said there would be a slight delay, for some reason that didn't seem to make any sense.I was prepared to go directly to GM today, as the new battery still hadn't arrived. However, I got a call from the parts manager this morning. He said that they were still trying to locate a battery, and that he had spoken to someone, who had suggested he install one with a higher cold cranking amps rating than the OEM. The OEM CCA is 450, according to ACDelco's Website.I suspect that they've found out that at least some of these batteries are inadequate for starting the Vibe under extremely cold conditions, and they just don't want to admit it. I noticed last week that Sears sells a Diehard Group 35 battery that has a CCA rating of 700.In any case, I suspect I'll get a more powerful battery. I've also told him I want to buy an electric battery blanket, and splice the cord into my block heater cord. My block heater has a resistance of about 34.5 ohms, so I figure its power consumption is only about 400 watts. The battery blanket is probably only about a 200 watt unit. I'd love to also get my hands on an electric battery plate that goes under the battery. It's about 1/4" thick, and it draws very little current, but it also does a good job of warming the battery. Unfortunately, Canadian Tire has stopped selling them, as they've found that there often isn't enough room under the hood, once the battery is raised by the plate.

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:20 am

I think we've gotten two distinct problems confused here. The one I originally asked about in this post relates to the starter STICKING when the weather is cold. The car starts no problem so I don't believe it has anything to do with the battery. The problem is the grinding noise that happens for a second or so after you start the car. However, a number of people have mentioned here that they have troubles with their car starting at all in cold weather and there definitely seems to be a battery problem there.I still haven't had my Vibe in for full service since my original post but I have an appointment scheduled in a couple of weeks.Will let you all know if they find anything. Unfortunately it's no longer cold outside so they won't be able to reproduce the problem. My guess is that they will say there is nothing wrong and I'll end up taking it back in next winter for the same issue.

FreddyMatrix · Post by **FreddyMatrix** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 6:14 am

I'm in the same boat... I think we'll have to wait til next January...

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:15 am

Surprise, surprise! I had my Vibe in for service yesterday and had them check the starter and they actually found the problem! Apparently the '...starter solinoid stays engaged after key is released...'. They are going to replace the starter but had to order a new one from the US so I'll have to wait awhile. It's only a problem in cold weather though so I'm in no rush now!

Cubanpete · Post by **Cubanpete** » Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:57 am

Last I checked there was no recall or service bulletin, in regards to the satrter or any other recall..........in early march 2003

yooper_bob · Post by **yooper_bob** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:01 am

hi cds22, did they mention if the starter is new as in redesigned to fix the sticking issue or are they just sending you a new old design replacement starter?My dealer tried replacing the starter with a new one (same part number) and the sticking still happened.

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:38 pm

quote:did they mention if the starter is new as in redesigned to fix the sticking issue or are they just sending you a new old design replacement starter?Good question! No, they didn't say anything about that so I would guess that it will be just a new one of the same design. Guess we'll find out next winter. So, what was the result of your second starter sticking? Are they going to replace again or did they discuss a redesign?

yooper_bob · Post by **yooper_bob** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:13 am

well they tried changing out the starter relay with no effect. then basically told me that that Pontiac's Technical Assistance Center (TAC) didn't have any other ideas how to fix it. I wasn't able to bring the car into another dealer to get another claim in the system since the weather didn't get cold enough for the noise to return. If there actually is a resolution to the problem (redesigned starter) I will bring may car back in next winter to have the started replaced out of warranty.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 2:53 am

your starter should still be covered under warranty. I have been dealing with GM on a cold weather problem too, and was told that if it crops back up again next winter, because all the documentation is during the warranty period, I'll still be covered.I would convince your service personnel that this is the case. If not, ask to speak with your region's service manager.

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 5:32 am

Well the new part finally arrived so I had it installed during a recent service at the dealer. As usual I picked the car up late in the day so there was no one around to explain what had been done. But, here's what is says on the invoice in case that is a help to anyone:Inspect/repair for starter will intermittently stickCause: component intermittent J4640 motor assembly, starter - replacePart #: 88969483Starter solinoid install new starter and test operation, working normalSo, being that the temperatures are much more enjoyable right now I guess I won't know if this fixes the problem until next December or so. Will post if this problem still continues.

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 6:10 am

It took THIS long to get that part???

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 1:48 am

quote:It took THIS long to get that part???Well I don't know when they actually received the part, it may have been sitting there for several weeks. Since the car was due for service again I called them to see if it was in and got the old "Oh, didn't someone call you to tell you it was in?" routine. They were supposed to call me when it arrived but of course no one had. And since it wasn't a problem anymore due to warmer weather I wasn't too worried about it.FYI, it appears that getting any part sent up to Canada seems to take quite awhile from what I've seen/heard. I'm now waiting for some new weatherstripping for one of my doors (see thread on crappy door seals...) and they told me it would likely take several weeks to arrive.

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:29 am

Well the weather hit -25C over the holidays and wouldn't you know it, my new starter also sticks. Sounds exactly the same as the old one. Not sure what to do now. Anyone heard anything else on this issue or had any success fixing the problem?

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:08 am

Unfortunately, I think the only recourse is to take it back to the dealership. Because this problem started so long ago (while you're under your warranty), this is considered one of those "on-going issues." I'd guess whatever is was that they replaced is not the defective part in the system.

millster · Post by **millster** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:40 am

Quote, originally posted by cds22 Â»Anyone heard anything else on this issue or had any success fixing the problem?Wow, I had read this thread when it first started and never had a second thought about it. Suddenly this weekend when the temp hit the deep negatives, it popped into my head. My starter sticks horribly (when the battery can manage to turn the engine over). Scared me to death when it first happened too. I'm not normally one to complain, and will live with many things but this is getting on my nerves. I'll have to take it in for this issue and the battery. I'll keep you all posted on what my dealer tells me about the starter though I suspect it's just something with the design and probably cannot be fixed..

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:08 pm

Quote, originally posted by millster Â»I suspect it's just something with the design and probably cannot be fixed..If it was truly a design issue, then everyone's starter would stick. Mine doesn't (at least not yet!), so I'm still going to stick (no pun intended) with the "unknown faulty component" theory.

millster · Post by **millster** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:42 pm

A good point indeed. I guess we'll see if the dealer can find anything. I certainly hope so.

Dave_ca · Post by **Dave_ca** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:23 am

Well so it is not only me with this problem. This week has been the first bit of cold wheather and I noticed that the starter gets "stuck" when its below -15Celcius... Tomorow I have an apointment at my dealership for them to look at it.. ill post what they tell me.

threekrows · Post by **threekrows** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:55 pm

I have a new,bigger battery in mine,and when it's cold enough,it makes noise.Sounds to me like the lube on the starter drive is thicker in the extreme cold and the starter isn't disengaging as quickly as when it's warm

Post by **NSimkins** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:03 pm

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â»Hope GM and Toyota can get on the ball and fix the problems in the Vibe and Matrix before 2005 production goes into effect.Thankfully they are going to be installing the 560 CCA battery on the 2005 Vibes at the factory. The issue is trying to get us 310 CCA battery owners the new 560 CCA's via the long-awaited TSB.

cds22 · Post by **cds22** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:35 am

Quote, originally posted by threekrows Â»I have a new,bigger battery in mine,and when it's cold enough,it makes noise.Is your noise similar to what we're describing? Are you saying that you didn't experience this starter noise problem when you had the smaller battery? I've been having the starter problem since the first winter I had my Vibe and I've still got the original battery. I think I mentioned way back when that I have a friend with a 2003 Corolla that has the same starter noise problem but I don't think she's ever asked the dealer about it.

threekrows · Post by **threekrows** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:14 pm

yeah,thats what i was saying,even though mine has a new,bigger battery,it makes noise when it's really cold,well,somewhere around 0.With the small battery,it turned over slowly,then made the dragging noise

Dave_ca · Post by **Dave_ca** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:33 am

I finally got an awsner from my dealer about the problem of the starter or what ever it is sticking when the car is cold. The dealer said "its suppose to do that, all other vibes do it, so the problem is not fixable" This to me is not acceptable and makes me wonder if I chose to correct company to conduct bussiness with;/ Its a shame because I love the vibe as long as it does not drop below -15 outside (wich it does for 4 months out of the year here)