Levi's.........ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH plants in the U.S.

[cohocarl]

And you thought Levi's was an " American" company. Guess management thought their $10/hr employees were overpaid. (removed)!! http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Sou....html Levi's

[Houston]

Welcome to the real world, my friend. At the present rate of defecting manufacturers, I predict that within fifty years absolutely nothing of importance will be manufactured in this great US of A. Flint, Michigan, a city that at one time built even more cars than Detroit now builds not even one. I retired in 1996 from Buick here in Flint. Buick in Flint, by the way, no longer exists, even though immediately prior to it's being demolished it had just been awarded J. D. Powers award for building the highest quality car in the world.The business world doesn't play fair, my friends, and I'm amazed that lots of folks still wish to be republicans and anti-union. Unions are the Godsend of us average folks. Unfortunately, however, not enough of you pay attention. Please wake up before you find yourselves working for a company that has a foreign name. Lots of you already do, though, with, unfortunately, lots more to come.Our beloved Vibe, for example, kinda tells us all what's coming. Hell, it's already here. The Lionel trains that I love so much that used to be built right here in my great State of Michigan, now come in boxes that say Made in China.Watch out, you young people. Watch out.

[dmitri]

umm welcome to american capitalism bro. Im 17 and i know all about this....dont say wake up young folks. The companies go where people work cheaper. The simple facts are that in these dirt poor countries, people work for pennies a day.Walmart is even worse. it is like a giant consuming the working class of america. They pay minimum wage to all of its workers, and does not allow unions. if there is one, they will automatically close a store. One time, Walmart had a coldcuts section, and the meat cutters tried to start a union. Walmart proceeded to close EVERY fresh coldcut section in its stores in the US. Now they have precut and packaged meat. Then, they advertise low prices tho the people who buy there: the poorer people who they employ. it is a horrible giant and must be stopped. Here in jersey ive seen one walmart their not popular, but from what i know there are mant west and south of me.

[Stang2Vibe]

You're definately on to how it works there, dmitri. You forgot to mention how the process of comparitive advantage works in an international capitalist economy. This is what the unions miss out on, they forget that they are creating little enclaves of communism everwhere they pop up by their intrinsic nature. I can negotiate my own wages, thank you very much. If I don't like my income, then I can always go somewhere else. If I'm not successful at that, then I can get an education and do even better for myself.At the present, we have more college educated people in the American workforce than ever in the past. Why should someone who spent $40,000 or even much more on an education work for the rest of their lives for $17 per hour with the only hope of a raise coming in the form of a cost of living expense increase or the renegotiation of an employment contract that they have no control over? That makes no sense. It would also completely stagnate the employment market and over time ruin the economy. If another country can produce something that we used to produce for a cheaper price and keep the same quality, we win twice by the jobs going there. One, we can import the now cheaper product and sell it here for less than we used to and two, the workers who used to produce it can now work to produce something that we need more. Or, they can expand their skills/education and move up a level (or more) and make more money than before, which in turn means that we have a greater quantity of higer quality or more specialized goods/services. This keeps us above foriegn competion. They are paying more people the relatively low wage jobs while our displaced workers, if they want to go out and earn it, can do better for themselves. This will also force domestic industry to streamline itself to run closer to peak efficiency because they can't afford to pay higher wages if they employ more people than they need. The gaps will automatically fill in. Companies that need more high quality workers will get them as they overflow from other companies. If we keep force-feeding companies labor and find ways to keep them operating here when the same work can be done elsewhere for less, we stagnate our workforce and harm the free market aspect of our economy. Learning the facts about economics would do many people wonders. Take it from a 25 year old who put himself back into school because he was tired of working at low paying jobs and refused to do it for the rest of his life. I know that I'm capable of much more. I would NEVER have gone back to school if I knew that I was going to be stuck with a relatively low union wage for the rest of my life. In actuality, my life would not be worth living if that were the case. Instead, I plan to own my own business after I graduate where my income will be determined by my ingenuity, intelligence, and desire to grow my business. Basically, my income will only be limited by how much I want to work at building my business and how far my abilities/intelligence can take me. Show me a union that can truthfully tout that in a sales pitch. The union is a buisness in and of itself that seeks to meet its' own needs first, no matter how much they preach that they are "standing up for the working man". They only stand up for the working man enough to keep the working man working so that their pockets are full. Looks like America has finally wised up to this as only about one in five American workers is a union member and the numbers are steadily decreasing. This is down from about one of every two workers when the unions were at their peak in the U.S. What is currently the fastest growing sector of the labor market? Independent contractors and small businesses. More people are working for themselves now than ever before. They have realized that they should stop making others wealthy through their own hard work and instead should take home a greater share of the success that they produce.

[scherry2]

REMOVED I was angry..... still am. I'm 47 years old worked for GM as a union brother for 27 years. the first part of those years there wasn't any competition except the big 3you don't know what a union can do for you untill you join one. on vacation..

[Craigmri]

Houston,Its the unions that are killing manufacturing here in the United States. How can Ford compete when they have to pay an unskilled floor sweeper $30/hour!

[Stang2Vibe]

Thank you, Craigmri, that was part of my point.

[drunkenmaxx]

ah, we've touched on this in respect to the grocery store strikes...i think i might just sit out

[slbpsi63]

Warning this post will offend some people: Don't really care though. Unions are the death of the American blue collar work force. They want and want and want but if an employer wants to change a policy all the cry babies that are part of the union go running and start complaning. (removed) gets paid for having to change into a uniform, Disney EE's because its required dress? I'm not talking about the characters I'm talking about the service people and the maintenance EE's. That is f'in B.S. you are not working, put your f'in clothes on and do your f'in job!!!!! I hate unions with a passion. I have a right to, you won't change my mind, I have dealt with them in the past, I work in HR and all I did was file grievance after grievance because some panssy (removed) didn't want to work. Why do you think city workers have a bad reputation? .... UNIONS!!!!!! the one union I do respect is the Teachers union. They need somebody fighting for them. Hell becasue of unions an uneducated laborer makes about $20-$30 an hour for a job that most people can do, but an non-unionized EE with the same skills might make $8-$10. Do you not see why US compnaies are saying to hell with us, your freaking unions f'd it up. On behalf of all of the ununionized EE that you idiots put out of a job I would like to say thanks for being greedy.

[Craigmri]

Everyone here has one thing in common. We all love the United states right? Yes I think Unions have outlived their usefulness. With that said, I am seriously frightened by the fact that 95% of everything we buy today is made in china. Yes they pay slave wages there and yes the product margins are tiny for them but good lord its like we're financing a manufacturing machine in China that could protentially detroy us in more ways than one.Forget Iran and North Korea.....those guys are minor league. If China wanted to make smart bombs, they could make so many so quickly that they could litter the USA from coast to coast. So what if they lose a few million people in a war.....their's like a billion of those suckers over there!......Very scary!Listen, I REALLY want to buy MADE IN AMERICA stuff but its getting really hard to find anything that is!

[Stang2Vibe]

Quote, originally posted by scherry2 » you don't like unions. go buy your anti-union jap crapI believe that you have taken me all wrong. Out of all the cars I've ever owned, none have been sold under a Japanese label. I buy American every chance I get. I staunchly defend my country every chance I get and I am fiercely patriotic. You must not get to read most of my posts here. Every car in my immediate family is an American car with the exception of my sister's Corolla, which was built in the NUMMI plant in Fremont, California by UAW workers. Try jumping on someone else and keep your racist comments to yourself. There is a reason why the Japanese and even some Europeans have come to make cars that are generally better than the American ones. I partially blame the unions for this as well. If the union workers turn out thousands of crappy cars, who cares, they get paid anyway and nobody can touch them--they are union members. In other countries, this is most definately not the case. You do a lousy job day after day and you're out the door. That's the way it SHOULD be. I hate to admit it, but foreign cars are built to higher standards.Quote, originally posted by scherry2 »and have all your non american migrant worker buddies come over to your house with all their money and get health care.Total number of migrant workers that I know----0. Try another insult. And I'm not running a health insurance business out of my basement so if, for some odd reason, migrant workers do come over to my house, I'd love to have you explain how they are going to get health care. I don't even have any health insurance, so they can't even steal mine. I'm not living in a hospital, nor am I medically trained so I cannot even provide that kind of health care. This sounds like union paranoia gone awry. Better stop back in the union hall and have a steward straighten out this arguement for you.Quote, originally posted by scherry2 »i am union and I would love to sit down and tell you with facts just how wrong your thinking really is. Well you go ahead and be union. Nobody is telling you not to. Just that they are doing you a greater disservice than you realize. People like you want to shove unions down everyone's throat. I won't take a union job because I feel that their rules and ways of doing things are ridiculous and completely counterproductive, not to mention that they are just another "middle man" skimming more money off of the pay check. I'd LOVE to sit down and listen to you. You could bring in your highly trained union brainwasher, too. But to be fair, I get to bring along one of my economics professors. We'll show you both why much of what you say is wrong and prove it with history and mathematics.Quote, originally posted by scherry2 »by the way what do you do for work and can it be more profitable to ship your job overseas or pay you less money to save the company money? think about it..I work for a local family-run asphalt paving company in addition to being a full time student at a private university. I know the owner personally, I am good friends with his son and they were formally my neighbors. My bosses father started the company over 45 years ago and I know him as well. Our company used to be union several years ago, and it completely choked the company and kept it from growing for many years. When the company was sold to my boss it was reorganized and the union was thrown out. Since then (about 10 years ago) the company has more than doubled in size. We have better, safer, and newer equipment than ever before and more workers as well. I can count on one hand the number of days in the past two years that we didn't have enough work to keep the entire company busy. We often have to turn down smaller jobs because we don't have time for them.For some reason, the local unions keep trying to infiltrate our company. Four infiltrators applied for work at our company this past year and one of them didn't get screened out. He only worked for us for about one week because he realized that we were generally happy working for our company and virtually nobody there wants to unionize. Yet they continue to pester us. They show up on our jobs and harass myself and my coworkers. You don't see us disturbing their worksites telling them to break the union, why must they continually try to shove a union down our throats when we don't want one? If we did unionize, I'd have to find another job along with many of my coworkers. We wouldn't have enough seniority and would be forcibly replaced with workers that have more seniority. Now who's putting who out of work? Also, I seriously doubt that anyone could profit from sending my job overseas. I'd love to laugh at the explanation on how that could be done.I think you seriously misunderstand me. Allow me to clarify. Both of my grandfathers were union workers. They worked for Pittsburgh steel mills all their lives, each put in at least 30 years at the same mill. I am not against the idea of unions in some instances, but what I do oppose is how the unions currently operate. Like I said before, many must feel similarly as the number of union workers is steadily declining. The unions are getting nastier because this is a serious problem for them. How are they going to pay out pensions and health benefits for decades to come when there is less and less new money coming in? Most unions are in serious financial trouble and the way they are handling things is only driving people away.Also, you seem to like to use me as an example, so I'll play along. Please tell me what the unions have to offer someone like me who has spent over $80,000 on an education? An entry level manual labor job where I start at $12 per hour and after 8 years I can make up to $19.50 per hour? Well whoopee! I'd only have to work for about 3 straight years at $19.50 per hour and not spend a penny on anything else just to pay off my education, not counting interest which would take even more. In reality, I'm never going to see that wage to start, so it would take even longer. By contrast, if I'm lazy and just coast through college and graduate with average grades, I can graduate and start out at a job where I would be able to pay for my entire education in about a year and a half, again, assuming I spend not a penny on anything else during that time. Also, my max salary is not so rigidly limited, so after that same 8 years I could very conceivably make over $100K per year or more. If I own my own business, again, I am only limited by the amount I want to grow my business and how far my abilities/intelligence will take me. Plus, if I start my own business, then I will be employing others as well. That would be creating new jobs, something that small businesses in America do exponentially more of than any union. So go ahead and stay with your union, and please, take everyone that you can with you. That will only free up more higher paying jobs for people like me.

[Charlievibe]

Stang,I get what you are saying and it is obvious that you are a non-unionized worker, as am I. I work in what is considered a white collar job and we are not allowed to join the union. This sucks because we are now the ones who get the shaft. Where the union sucks at my work is that you have to file forms and get approval to even have the janatorial staff come clean up a mess. People who used to do their jobs without a problem, are now forced to sit and wait for the proper forms with the proper approvals. Anymore, I just do most everything myself.Other countries have unions as well, such as Italy, and these unions can cause even bigger problems. My company bought a plant in Italy and when we shut it down a few months ago because no money was being made, we were required to continue paying the employees for three months. For those who are in a union, you will love the perks the Italian union people get....wine at lunch, full company-paid lunches, a month of vacation plus about 13 extra vacation/holidays a year. There are other perks, but those are all I can remember right now.So, here in the USA, we aren't the only ones with problems. What I figure will eventually happen is that all of these foreign countries will become money hungry and our industries will eventually be sent back here. But I am not going to hold my breath until that happens.

[joatmon]

I don't know how this got into a union thing, but when i read the article that cohocarl linked, I didn't see anything about unions, and an average salary of $10-12 is wildly different than the $30/hour floor sweeper. Anyway, back to the original topic ...Levi's use to be such a symbol of Americana, the commercials of the miner panning for gold, wearing Levis, news stories about people overseas paying outrageous money for genuine American Levi's blue jeans. I'm sure they will probably continue to use Levi's as a symbol of america, but it won't really mean anything.I can't remember the last time I bought a pair of Levi's. Been in blue jeans as long as I can remember, but never went for a particular brand or label. How often do you all buy Levi's brand?For me it was a minor consideration when deciding to buy a Vibe, but in general, when shopping for products, how important is "Made in America" to you?

[scherry2]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »I don't know how this got into a union thing, Oh didn't you know? the down fall of america is the unions fault. levi can make CHEAPER pants outside of america and corporations can reap a bigger profit by paying 50 cents an hour non union rather than higher american job wages. Never mind the CEO making millions in perks. the d**n union worker is making too much.

[drunkenmaxx]

well, you all made me go there: -edit- i took the dirty word off the bottom, i hope noone saw it...

Attached files

[Reynoma]

Drunken,That could me the most tasteless, instulting item I've ever seen on the internet.(I have to admit, I still laughed)

[drunkenmaxx]

i know it is tasteless and offensive, but, it i wasn't trying to make light of people with handicaps, just trying to break up the fight! is also funny! (no stang and scherrry, i wasn't calling you guys retards)

[scherry2]

Quote, originally posted by drunkenvibe »(no stang and scherrry, i wasn't calling you guys retards) yea you were.

[joatmon]

That's how I interpreted it

[JohnC]

OK!....now who is up for the topic of abortion?

[Stang2Vibe]

Oh don't get me started.And it's OK that you guys call me retarded, I don't care. I'm pretty thick skinned. I dish it out sometimes, so I expect to take it. I'm glad that at least someone had the testicular fortitude to actually post it rather than curse me out to their computer screen. But I'll remember that!I think that I may be the most misunderstood member on here. People hate me, yet they don't know me. I find that fascinating. Really, I'm not that bad of a guy. I just stand up for what I believe in. The old country song was right: "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything".

[joatmon]

I don't think anybody hates you, but I know that I disagree with you occaisionally.(ok, on just about everything "off topic" ) If we were all the same, life could get pretty boring. Also, we mid atlantic vibers need to stick together. Not from a country song, but how about "People can't walk all over you if you don't lie down for it first" ? I always liked that one.

[AKLGT]

ROFLMAO! it's so wrong, yet so hilariously funny!

[Stang2Vibe]

Well that's good. GenVibe is my favorite spare time activity. I don't want to go down as the next Nova. I liked Scott and all, but things got out of hand. I won't go down that path.And I totally agree with your statement on everyone being the same (note to history buffs: record this moment--joat and I agreeing on something in the off-topic forum). >Any chance you might attend a Mid-Atlantic Vibe meet this year? If so, I may have to have Geo lend me his Nerf balls. Maybe his tinfoil hat as well!

[cohocarl]

Well.......some interesting views on our American economy and workforce. I posted the original story about Levi's closing it's remaining USA plants because I personally think it's unfortunate an "American icon" is no longer being made here. I appreciate the responses. I don't agree with all of them, but we have to have an open mind and consider other's point of views. Brandon, I'm not trying to "flame" you, but your comments regarding the American Unionized workforce are interesting. Lets hope you aren't replaced at the paving company you work at with Bush's illegal aliens before you get your education.

[Stang2Vibe]

LOL, carl. No, that's not likely to happen. The only migrant workers around here work in the summer on some of the farms. We can't get anyone to labor in this business anymore. My boss would like to hire people, but we don't get many applications. He would never hire migrant workers anyway, I'll have to decline to say why out of respect to the forum.Even if I were replaced, I wouldn't care much. I'd just get another job somewhere else probably making more money anyway. I'm going to be visiting the career center at school soon to see if they have anything better for me.I don't have much of a problem with legalizing the migrant workers. There are MANY jobs around the country that Americans seem to consider themselves too good to perform. Even many teenage kids in my area would rather sit at home and ask the parents for money instead of working a part time job. If they do work a part time job, they fight over fluff jobs in the mall or in other comfy places. There are many more senior citizens and middle aged moms working at fast food places around here than high school/college kids. The kids want to start out at $10 per hour for the inconvenience of having to show up at work and pretend to do something while they talk on the phone all night. I'd be happy to see a migrant worker doing the job instead. At least they work hard and are generally grateful to be employed. As long as we collect taxes from the migrant workers the same as we do from Americans, I don't really care and think it may actually be good. They're going to flock over here and fill in the unwanted positions anyway, so we might as well get the tax money from it at least. I just don't want us to become Mexico's welfare state, that's all.

[Charlievibe]

You are bad, I like you!!!!