Am I screwed?

[fosterdave37]

Ok so I know this has been asked before but there is a lot of conflicting information out there. My son bought a 2009 Vibe 2.4l (his first car) it has a boat load of miles on it 170 something. Now I feel as though I have failed as a father because I didn’t remind him enough to check his oil. Needless to say he ran it low and lost oil pressure. So here is the aftermath. He got it home and it cranks but won’t start. (Oil has been added). It has spark and fuel but very low compression. I’ve tested the cam and crank shaft sensors and have taken the valve cover off. It appears that the timing chain is off by 4 links. I assume the loss of oil Pressure caused the tensioner to go slack and allowed the chain to slip. The question, is the 2.4l engine a interference or freewheeling engine? I can turn the engine over by hand as much as I want no interference. If it’s freewheeling I can buy a timing chain kit but if not and the valves are bent no sense wasting my time. Any input is appreciated thanks

[zbyers]

I'm not sure if it's interference or not. There is conflicting info on that.

Have you done a compression test to see if it's low on compression? Have you found TDC to determine if the timing is off?

Honestly, these engines are pretty cheap and used in a lot of cars that if all else fails, pull one from a junkyard and slap it in the engine bay.

[jolt]

I do not know for sure but as a general rule if it has a chain it is interference. If it has a belt, it may or may not be interference; depends on when engine was made. Bent valves are not the end of the world for an engine but will require more work then just a chain. The 2.4L engine is the stock engine in a base Camry. A salvage yard will know if they interchange. You will want a engine from a late '09 or '10.

[fosterdave37]

So I bought a inspection camera to check out the pistons. No evidence of contacting the valves. I guess it doesn’t mean that it is not an interference engine but at least I’m not out of time enough to put my valve through a piston. Unfortunately I can’t see the valves. But with engine at TDC there is at least an inch from bottom of head to top of the piston. So I think my next move is to take timing cover off and rest the timing chain.

Should I buy a kit and replace the entire timing assembly or just get a new tensioner?

PS. Pistons had some carbon on the top but the cylinder walls looked pretty good

[JerryV]

I am working on the same type of vehicle. An 09 with 2.4L. I hadn't considered the question of interference or not. It seems like most modern engines are since compression ratios are up to increase efficiency. A little searching on the web confirms that there is no conclusive information out there. I suspect that is because the chain drives rarely fail catastrophically like a timing belt. It would be odd for your chain to have jumped teeth. I think you should check that again. Also, your comment about the inch of space between piston and head can't be correct. Even in the center of the combustion chamber I don't think there would be that much clearance.

A leak down test would confirm what is causing the low compression. It takes a little more complicated setup, but will give you some information about where the problem lies. Basically you put a cylinder at TDC, flow compressed air into it and measure the % lost. With a bad leak, you can usually tell where the leak is. (rings, valve, head gasket, etc.)

Here is a better explanation:

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/car ... w-to-do-it


Jerry

[fosterdave37]

Thanks for the reply.
Yes not a lot of info out there some say yes some say no some just don’t know. Lol.
I’m in the process of taking the timing cover off to see exactly what is up with the timing chain. I know when I have the crank lined up at zero the two yellow chain links are about 4 links off of where they should be. As far as the inch of space your probably correct. I was just guessing iseing what I saw with my inspection camera. Not very scientific.

Yes a bleed down test would be my next step.

[fosterdave37]

I am working on the same type of vehicle. An 09 with 2.4L. I hadn't considered the question of interference or not. It seems like most modern engines are since compression ratios are up to increase efficiency. A little searching on the web confirms that there is no conclusive information out there. I suspect that is because the chain drives rarely fail catastrophically like a timing belt. It would be odd for your chain to have jumped teeth. I think you should check that again. Also, your comment about the inch of space between piston and head can't be correct. Even in the center of the combustion chamber I don't think there would be that much clearance.

A leak down test would confirm what is causing the low compression. It takes a little more complicated setup, but will give you some information about where the problem lies. Basically you put a cylinder at TDC, flow compressed air into it and measure the % lost. With a bad leak, you can usually tell where the leak is. (rings, valve, head gasket, etc.)

Here is a better explanation:

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/car ... w-to-do-it


Jerry

I Took your advise and looked at the timing again. Your correct.. I was looking at the two yellow links and they were not inline with the timing marks but when I double checked with the crank at 0 the marks all lined up just the chain must have been installed without the yellow links in the proper place. I guess I was just excited to think I found the problem. Also took your advise with the leak down test. It is showing some different results.

first compression results:

im numbering the cylinders from right to left

#1 50 lbs
#2 90 lbs
#3 70 Lbs
#4 90 Lbs

leak down results: with cylinders at TDC on compression stroke all plugs removed and valve cover off

#1 most of the leakage is out the exhaust a little out cly #2
#2 most air escaping out cyl #1 and PCV hose
#3 air out #1 and PCV (if i reinstall the other plus all air goes to PCV)
#4 air come out #3 (if plugs are reinstalled allair is out the exhaust)

I am a novice with this stuff but also a cheep A** this is a $2500 car and cant justify taking it to someone plus I like to learn

At this point my guess is a bad head gasket between cylinders ( no apparent coolant leaks of coolant in oil) of maybe some valves.
Question is do I try and fix those things , look for a used engine to swap, or scrap it and cut my losses?

I do appreciate any ones input . thanks again

[andrewclaus]

It sounds like a complete rebuild is needed. Air out the PCV valve could mean rings are shot too.

From what I've heard about these engines, a rebuild isn't economical. There should be a decent one somewhere in salvage.

[zbyers]

From what I've heard about these engines, a rebuild isn't economical. There should be a decent one somewhere in salvage.

I agree. These engines are a dime-a-dozen, and rebuilding isn't really worthwhile, especially since the 2.4L had oil burning issues anyways. Best bet is to find the newest 2.4L you can, and install that. They were used in vehicles through like 2015 or something to that affect.

[JerryV]

From what I've heard about these engines, a rebuild isn't economical. There should be a decent one somewhere in salvage.

I agree. These engines are a dime-a-dozen, and rebuilding isn't really worthwhile, especially since the 2.4L had oil burning issues anyways. Best bet is to find the newest 2.4L you can, and install that. They were used in vehicles through like 2015 or something to that affect.

I have been looking around a bit for my project, but it seems like almost all the salvage yard engines have 150k+ miles which isn't unexpected given a ten year old vehicle. My concern is; how do you know you are not getting an oil burner? Even with a warranty, you are out all the time to replace it.

Most interesting are the JDM engines which all claim to have 50k, but is that real? And you know it didn't come out of a Vibe so is it an exact fit or are there subtle differences? I can't find anyone that has direct experience good or bad.

Jerry

[zbyers]

There is never a guarantee it isn't an oil burner,.

You also have no way to verify authenticity of claims of 50k miles JDM engines. However, odds are, they are pretty close to that mileage. In Japan, they don't do nearly as much traveling by personal car as the US does due to the public transportation infrastructure.

There very well could be subtle differences. Best bet is to keep your original assembled, to swap over things as needed.

[SSizler]

Have you included Matrix in your engine search?
I just googled it and see a few with 90K miles here:
https://buyusedengine.com/used_engine.p ... 09&page=16
Not sure what price range you are looking for. These seem expensive.
Good luck in your search!

[fosterdave37]

I’ve been on the hunt. I found two at salvage yards near me.

1st has 123000 miles $950. Car looks like it took a good hit to the front end
2nd 118000 for $1095. This one took hit to drivers side rear.

Both are already pulled.
Probably going with #2. Worth the extra $150 to stay away from that damaged radiator.

This will be my first engine swap any advise from anyone who has done one would be great

[JerryV]

Those are pretty good prices. I have not found anything that cheap with those miles around me. It does seem like the Matrix engines are more expensive for the same thing.

I have been checking this site:

http://car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi

I would ask them if you can do a leak down test before you buy.

Jerry

[fosterdave37]

Just bought the one with 118000 miles has a 90 day warranty I will go through it before install including a leak down

I found both on that website along with the JDM on ebay. The JDM look good but I'm not much of a gambler. With this being my first engine swap I figure the salvage yard one might be easier with no parts to swap.

wish me luck

[KingKrab65]

Good luck with your mission!

FMI - did that price include a transmission and/or the engine module? Just curious.

[fosterdave37]

Just the engine

[Pauls325]

side note on the first post, on these engines the timing chain tensioner is spring loaded and has a pawl that wont let it back off once its extended without removing it.

As far as engine swapping, this little four cyl shouldn't give you too much of a fight.
Disconnect all your electrical connections (push tab, push in like your trying to connect it more, pull)
Pay attention to differences in bolt lengths especially on the torque converter! (stay organized)
once the engine is removed pay attention to any alignment pins on the bellhousing or engine, compare to the new engine make sure it is not missing any.

Also remember if you feel like you are forcing something you are probably doing something wrong, if something is in the way its usually easier to remove it rather than trying to squeeze something past it, if and when you get frustrated step away or you will probably make things worse.

[fosterdave37]

side note on the first post, on these engines the timing chain tensioner is spring loaded and has a pawl that wont let it back off once its extended without removing it.

As far as engine swapping, this little four cyl shouldn't give you too much of a fight.
Disconnect all your electrical connections (push tab, push in like your trying to connect it more, pull)
Pay attention to differences in bolt lengths especially on the torque converter! (stay organized)
once the engine is removed pay attention to any alignment pins on the bellhousing or engine, compare to the new engine make sure it is not missing any.

Also remember if you feel like you are forcing something you are probably doing something wrong, if something is in the way its usually easier to remove it rather than trying to squeeze something past it, if and when you get frustrated step away or you will probably make things worse.

Sounds like good advise! old ones just about ready to come out. definitely taking my time.

[fosterdave37]

Ok so the new old engine is here trying to look it over and check to make sure its what I want before putting it in. I've done a leak down and not getting great results. around 60% give or take in all 4 what should I expect? was worried I wasn't at TDC so I put the air to it and turn it over. best I getis around 60%.. Its better now that I've blown air past all the valves. Its sat for a while could have developed a little rust on the valves ??? what else should I check?

30 day warranty so I can take it back.

[Pauls325]

put a tablespoon of oil in each spark plug hole turn it over a few times and retest.

[fosterdave37]

put a tablespoon of oil in each spark plug hole turn it over a few times and retest.

yep i did that it has gotten better

from right to left
#1 25% loss out exhaust valve

#2 40% loss out of cylinder # 1 and a little out of exhaust valve

#3 35% loss out of exhaust valve

#4 30% loss out of exhaust valve and a little out of cylinder #2

I'm wondering how much a difference the fact that the engine is cold makes 27 degrees out side in my unheated garage?
lhelossfrom exhaust valves on a used 118,000 mile engine that has sat for a bit of time I kinda get but what about the loss out other cylinders? That are next to each other ?

[Weimarman]

Jdm engines, all have to swap timing chain covers for 2009 Vibe. 2011-2015 Scion xB is direct swap. Only thing I had to change was passenger CV axle support. Mine only had 65k miles. Seen several others on eBay around 75k. Scion xB built in Japan, no oil leak issues.

[fosterdave37]

Jdm engines, all have to swap timing chain covers for 2009 Vibe. 2011-2015 Scion xB is direct swap. Only thing I had to change was passenger CV axle support. Mine only had 65k miles. Seen several others on eBay around 75k. Scion xB built in Japan, no oil leak issues.

Where did you buy your JDM engine? thinking about going that route now but kinda nervous about rolling the dice.