On going hard (hot start) & idle issues - done some things but what's next?

[chopsieze]

I have an 04 fwd with about 150,000 (owned since about 125,000) Earlier this winter I was having p0420 and a couple codes I can't remember now (they are written down somewhere) and the car was running poorly. I replaced plugs, o2 sensors and cleaned maf. It ran pretty good for a month or so then started running rough again at times. I've always kind of suspected the cat but have been reluctant to delete it.

Then it quit starting when the engine is warm and definitely seems worse when it's hot outside. It really liked to do it when my wife was running errands 20 miles from home I pulled o2 sensors and cleaned them and ran some crc emmsions junk through it just for fun and it spit a bunch of junk out the exhaust and actually was running pretty good again... for a while.

The hot starts got worse again and my wife told me the temp gauge was going crazy. Looked into it and thought "bingo" that's my issue, faulty sensor. Changed it and I don't think it has not, not started hot but it does seem to crank long enough to make you think it might not start. It also idles rough at times. I sprayed carb cleaner around the intake and didn't notice any change but I'm still considering changing the gasket. I also wonder if it's the iac? The rpms change when I turn the lights on/off etc but I'm not a mechanic and don't really know all that much.

I'm thinking it's my cat, intake gasket or iac but does anyone else have any ideas?

[chopsieze]

I'm not sure when the timing belt was done and have some oil seeping I need to fix. I don't want to keep sinking money into the car till I know it's going to be alright. I've been putting $200 here, $100 there doing other things. Also, I traded a dirt bike for a snap-on modis ultra just because it was a great trade up. If I can figure out how to make good use of it, I'd like to keep it for my other vehicles and just fun with friends etc... I just am looking for an help/direction.

[gtv237]

Running issues with extended crank means it is running rich. Could be a problem with the ignition system, leaking fuel injectors or incorrect sensor reading.

[ehoff121]

Welcome to genvibe!

Searching the forum on your P0420 code would point to a bad cat.

The good news is you recently changed the O2 sensors, so all you'd need to do is order the cats and pipe. You don't say where you drive, but with 150k on the odometer, that exhaust pipe could be rusted out at the weld points and due for a replacement anyway.

Depending on whether or not you are in CA or NY (CARB compliant), you can buy just the cats for around $250 http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php ... cc=1432958 or the cat and pipe to the muffler for $325 - $350 http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php ... 58&jsn=403

If you have a local shop, you can bring them the parts and should get charged a little labor since they're bolt on...

[chopsieze]

Thanks for the replies... just got them. I thought I had notifications turned on but will have to check that.

I live in Iowa, I put a new muffler in last year and the rest of the tubing seems good with no leaks. Since I cleared the codes a few months ago the p0420 has not been back but I still wonder about the cat. I don't mind putting one in and would do it myself but not sure I want to put any more money into it. Had the AC fixed last year and it's not cooling well again (must have a leak), the car is starting to rust a bit and going to need tires this year.

I just put on new brakes, calipers and one rotor, fixed a leaky cam chain tensionor sell, water pump, thermostat, etc... just wondering if I should move onto something else or keep dropping money into it. I save money doing it myself but still adding up.

[chopsieze]

Running issues with extended crank means it is running rich. Could be a problem with the ignition system, leaking fuel injectors or incorrect sensor reading.

Any suggestions on testing or pin pointing the issue? The codes it shows now are p0303 but the snap-on tool didn't show any cylinder misfiring currently. It also has p0117 and p0118 but thinking I fixed that with the new temp sensor. I suppose I should wipe them and see what comes up next. It also has a pending code of p0133...

[jolt]

P0303 - http://repairpal.com/OBD-II-Code-P0303
More info - https://www.autocodes.com/p0303_2006_toyota_camry.html
I would do a compression check on all the cylinders and then inspect the coil packs after the compression check, replace the pack on #3 cylinder to try if nothing shows up when checking the coil packs.

P0117 - https://www.autocodes.com/p0117_2004_to ... rolla.html
With temp jumping around and you said you put a water pump in it, you may still have air in the cooling system.

P0118 - https://www.engine-codes.com/p0118_toyota.html
More info - https://www.autocodes.com/p0118_2004_to ... rolla.html
Also bad electrical connections or bad thermostat that is sticking.

[gtv237]

P0117 is likely causing this problem. It is for a malfunction with the engine coolant temperature sensor. Its caused by an electrical malfunction and not a cooling system issue. If the engine does not heat up or cycle properly due to a cooling system problem it will throw p0128 not p0117.

Normally when p0117 is thrown the ECM is not getting a signal from the temperature sensor. As a result it reads -40*f. Colder air is more dense and oxygen rich. So if the ECM thinks it's cold it will add more fuel to obtain a proper air fuel ratio. It all makes perfect sense because you are clearly running rich with the extended crank. Check the coolant temp sensor.

[chopsieze]

I replaced the temp sensor a few weeks ago and the gauge quit jumping from full hot to full cold. I've only driven it a couple times since then so not really tested but it hasn't had to crank when warm forever. Still longer than I would expect, however. It idles rough, sometimes to the point of dying, sometimes it's pretty smooth.

I changed the intake gasket and did a cold compressing test. Compression showed all cylinder between 120-130 (maybe more like 118-132). The plugs look decent but I'm not super versed on reading them. I've got pics and can post them later.

When I pulled the intake off, it was a bit oily around one of the ports.

I cleared the codes and started it, still very rough idle but haven't had time to drive it and see what codes come back.... our dog was ran over that night and aren't sure he's going to make it dealing with that and consoling the kids. I'll drive it today.

[ehoff121]

Sorry to hear about your dog

Did you disconnect the negative battery cable after doing the work? That would reset the computer and it then needs to re-learn the best settings.

[chopsieze]

Sorry to hear about your dog

Did you disconnect the negative battery cable after doing the work? That would reset the computer and it then needs to re-learn the best settings.

Thanks.

I reset it with a scanner. I think I read I need to do some driving like get up to 55 for few minutes then coast to 20 etc. to relearn. It's running terrible, like theres a bad vacuum leak... barely have power brakes. I'm sure I knocked something off or broke a line how it's running. I hope the manifold gasket stayed in place, I think it did. I know I read people not getting some of the vacuum lines back on off then back side of the TB but I checked all those a few times. I should have time tomorrow night to look closer. I'll also read on ways to find vacuum leaks easier.

[vibrologist]

It's easy to forget connecting the brake booster hose on the intake manifold after taking it off. It's on the driver's side and somewhat hidden from view. There is a picture somewhere in my thread linked in my signature.

[302LVR]

I usually try to listen for any hissing noises when looking for a vacuum leak. If you suspect you have one, i like to spray a bit of starting fluid real quick, not soak any parts since the spray is really cold, but that usually makes the rpm go up higher when you have a vacuum leak and the intake of the starting fluid will make your rpms go up higher momentarily. Good luck with that.

[chopsieze]

Thanks everyone for continuing to help me. I got the leak found and it was exactly what vibrologist said. Funny because I read a thread of someone doing the exact thing so I was trying to be mindful and still did it.

I drove the car a bit and at one point the CEL came on and it was cyl 3 misfire again. For now I'm going to figure out the firing order and swap 2 COPs and see what happens. I unplugged each injector one by one with the car running and each had an affect which is what's making me think it's intermittent. It's seems like it's running pretty well. It did stumble briefly once at start up in the short testing I did.

Another thing is I seem to be losing coolant. My reservoir keeps getting low or maybe even dry, can't tell. No milky oil, no signs of leaking and no smell of antifreeze. I'll get a new radiator cap today and see if that helps.

[chopsieze]

Just swapped cyl 2 & 3 spark plug & COP. Cleared code and cyl 3 misfire came back.

What I found though is it's only misfiring on startup and a few seconds after. I used a live scanner to see it. I'm going to check into my fuel pressure and filter and see if maybe it doesn't have enough pressure during startup. Any other ideas what might be causing that?

[302LVR]

Just swapped cyl 2 & 3 spark plug & COP. Cleared code and cyl 3 misfire came back.

What I found though is it's only misfiring on startup and a few seconds after. I used a live scanner to see it. I'm going to check into my fuel pressure and filter and see if maybe it doesn't have enough pressure during startup. Any other ideas what might be causing that?

I picked up my vibe used with 140k miles on the clock and the first thing i did was install new plugs since i had a very slight miss. After new plugs, the car felt smoother but occasionally i still got a little miss. I pulled out my coil packs n noticed that the plastic boots that go down into the plug had very small cracks and sings of arcing so i cleaned them up and wrapped them with a quality electric tape and the issue went away.

Its a rather cheap and minimally time consuming job so u might wanna give that a try. Buy a quality brand electric tape or some type of heat shrink if possible and wrap it around the plastic boots that go attached to the coil packs. You can also swap the coils from one cylinder to another and if indeed one is bad, the miss code should show up in a different cylinder. As for faulty injectors, you can buy yourself a Noid light kit which shows if electricity or a signal is indeed being sent to each injector or you can go the cheaper route n buy an automotive stethoscope for like $10 @harbor freight and you should here each injector making a clicking noise if functioning properly when you hold the metal rod to it. As you rev up the motor, the clicking should get faster or louder since the injector is pushing more fuel through. Hope that helps.

[chopsieze]

I swapped plugs and COPs around and still have a misfire on cyl 3 at start up. According to a mechanic friend, it sounds like I might have a head gasket with a slight leak. I told him what the car was doing and he asked if I have, even a minor leak of coolant. I do, and he said when it's running, the compression would keep the coolant out but when the car is shut off a slight amount would be leaking and explains the hard start. I think he is probably right.

[vibrologist]

I think he is probably right.

Me too. None of the things you did cleared it up or moved the problem to another location.

[302LVR]

It does sound like a bad head gasket if the issue remains in that cylinder and especially if the coolant is mysteriously disappearing. Sounds like you might wanna do a radiator pressure test in which you pump air into the cooling system to simulate an overheat. Once you have between 13-16psi or whichever the radiator cap is rated for, you should notice coolant seeping out of somewhere. If indeed the problem is at cylinder #3 then i'm pretty sure you might have some coolant or rust residue on the spark plug electrode since the coolant is entering the cylinder chamber. If anything, try to bring cylinder #3 up to TDC when doing this and maybe shinning a flashlight through the spark plug hole to see if you see any green coolant over the piston. Also, you may wanna check your dipstick and see if your oil is mixing with coolant. If it is, it will probably look milky or like a coffee with milk type of mix. Good luck.

[chopsieze]

It does sound like a bad head gasket if the issue remains in that cylinder and especially if the coolant is mysteriously disappearing. Sounds like you might wanna do a radiator pressure test in which you pump air into the cooling system to simulate an overheat. Once you have between 13-16psi or whichever the radiator cap is rated for, you should notice coolant seeping out of somewhere. If indeed the problem is at cylinder #3 then i'm pretty sure you might have some coolant or rust residue on the spark plug electrode since the coolant is entering the cylinder chamber. If anything, try to bring cylinder #3 up to TDC when doing this and maybe shinning a flashlight through the spark plug hole to see if you see any green coolant over the piston. Also, you may wanna check your dipstick and see if your oil is mixing with coolant. If it is, it will probably look milky or like a coffee with milk type of mix. Good luck.

Well, I concluded it was indeed a HG. Got a little worse, could smell coolant and see steam out of the exhaust yesterday, could smell exhaust in the radiator among quite a few other signs. Most of you are going to cringe but with the overall compression not being great in all cylinders and again, among several other issues with the car... I went cheap, since I couldn't pay a shop to put a new HG and I don't have time this summer to attempt myself, I tried some blue devil this afternoon. I haven't taken it on much of a test drive after going through the whole process but it isn't blowing white smoke anymore and also fires right up and no CEL or misfire in cyl 3. Just hoping to get a little more life out of it and hope nothing gets too gummed/clogged up from that stuff. I will post back in a few days.

[Nevarnitsuj]

I'm getting 352. Was getting 351 but I moved my COP to 2 cyl. Anyone have issues buying a new COP. Amazon and rockauto said the part would fit but they are to fat and short. Anyone have a site I can use to get the correct size COP.

[chopsieze]

I'm getting 352. Was getting 351 but I moved my COP to 2 cyl. Anyone have issues buying a new COP. Amazon and rockauto said the part would fit but they are to fat and short. Anyone have a site I can use to get the correct size COP.

I get a lot of my stuff from Advance Auto... order online and use a 30-40% off coupon I find on the web and it's waiting for me at the store by the time I get there. Walk in, walk out. Easy to return then if necessary.