No codes, Car Shudders at low speeds

lannvouivre · Post by **lannvouivre** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:40 am

I can't be entirely sure of how they'd hold up. The 3A-C engines (A family being the predecessor to the ZZ family) use aluminum bearings and have excellent longevity.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/10 ... -bearings/ Here's an article. It mentions that aluminum bi-metal (aluminum with steel backing) bearings are used most frequently on modern engines and are excellent for low-load engines, which the 1ZZ can probably be safely classified as.

As far as the different sizes go, you have much greater tolerances accepted in an overhaul than what Toyota allows in their factories. You are allowed 0.028-0.080 mm clearance, via service manual. Toyota wants as close to a guarantee as possible that your car will be exactly like the experience they want you to have (basically, perfect), so that's why the sizes vary by 0.007 mm and not 0.25 mm. If you can't fall within the range in the service manual, you will need to have the crank refinished to 0.25 or 0.50 mm undersize and to get the matching bearings, then measure to verify.

Make sure you get everything really clean before you put that puppy back together, and measure the clearance. You may also need new rod bolts for it, I think they are also intended to stretch (stretching has more consistent clamping force) and after stretching, no longer clamp as well.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:31 pm

lannvouivre wrote:I can't be entirely sure of how they'd hold up. The 3A-C engines (A family being the predecessor to the ZZ family) use aluminum bearings and have excellent longevity.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/10 ... -bearings/ Here's an article. It mentions that aluminum bi-metal (aluminum with steel backing) bearings are used most frequently on modern engines and are excellent for low-load engines, which the 1ZZ can probably be safely classified as.

As far as the different sizes go, you have much greater tolerances accepted in an overhaul than what Toyota allows in their factories. You are allowed 0.028-0.080 mm clearance, via service manual. Toyota wants as close to a guarantee as possible that your car will be exactly like the experience they want you to have (basically, perfect), so that's why the sizes vary by 0.007 mm and not 0.25 mm. If you can't fall within the range in the service manual, you will need to have the crank refinished to 0.25 or 0.50 mm undersize and to get the matching bearings, then measure to verify.

Make sure you get everything really clean before you put that puppy back together, and measure the clearance. You may also need new rod bolts for it, I think they are also intended to stretch (stretching has more consistent clamping force) and after stretching, no longer clamp as well.

The steel backing makes sense. I checked the old bearings with a magnet, I suppose they could still have the aluminum as well.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:28 am

Stopped by the dealership this morning.... They wanted $80 for the bearing set and another $4/bolt....
Rock Auto it is then.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:45 am

Of course, I can't find anyone that sells just the bolts without a whole rebuild kit... so will likely be going back to the dealership anyway.

lannvouivre · Post by **lannvouivre** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:32 am

That's what I had to do, should be $30-40. All the other engine components I used aside from the bolts and gaskets/seals were aftermarket when I did my overhaul.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:25 pm

20160312_181216 by LodeCreative, on Flickr

Well.... It sounds better.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:19 pm

20160313_143523 by LodeCreative, on Flickr

Got it all buttoned up and out of the garage finally. Drove it only 1.5 miles so far. But it sounds much better at least.

Going to get the transmission serviced before i take it too far from home, but will have to wait till pay day.

vibrologist · Post by **vibrologist** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:43 pm

Oh yes! That sounds like a job well done! Kudos!

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:42 pm

vibrologist wrote:Oh yes! That sounds like a job well done! Kudos!

Thanks,
And thanks for all the help to everyone.
Hopefully this will have it set for awhile. It made me think twice about having to trade it in, but then I tried to put 3 car seats in it. Will hate to see her go. Maybe in another 4 years when it's nothing but booster seats I'll pick up a decent '09/'10 for commuting.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:34 am

So....
Got the trans flushed this morning. And started off for work. There was a faint tapping I had hoped was still a sticking lifter, but on the 40 mile drive to the office this morning, it got worse and worse after going up some hills. Afraid the rod's knocking again. Guess it needs a crank.... Crap.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:43 pm

So...
Because I'm honest enough not to just dump a ton of motor honey in the engine, My trade in value is now a whopping $500. Unfortunately I owe $3600 and adding that to the $8500 minivan was just too much.

I'm going to end up buying a $3k car for now so i can afford to make payments while i figure out what to do with it.
Not sure if there's any block damage, but what are we looking at cost of a rebuild? or is it better to grab a used, or pay for one of the $1k rebuilds on ebay?

As is, I can't see spending $1k just to get the car into the $1500-$2000 trade in range.
I like the car, I wouldn't mind rebuilding/replacing and keeping it going as a DD.

OR... Does anyone need parts? Tires are 8 months old on alloys. New throttle body, coils, VVT solenoid, etc...

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:04 pm

http://www.gotengines.com/step-two.php?orderid=8536157

Anybody used these guys?

vibrologist · Post by **vibrologist** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:25 am

I would go for a used engine. Why?
*You would get an engine that was most likely not opened up.
*It is broken in.
*The fix is fast.

Search http://www.car-part.com/ for interchangeable engines in your area.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:42 pm

vibrologist wrote:I would go for a used engine. Why?
*You would get an engine that was most likely not opened up.
*It is broken in.
*The fix is fast.

Search http://www.car-part.com/ for interchangeable engines in your area.

Looks like I'm going to end up going that route and keeping it.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:53 am

http://nashville.craigslist.org/cto/5488169232.html

I don't suppose a Scion TC 2.4 and auto trans would be a direct swap.... would it?

vibrologist · Post by **vibrologist** » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:43 am

Probably not.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:55 pm

If it were just a project car and not a DD, I might have considered it.

In any case, here we go.

20160323_171956 by LodeCreative, on Flickr

Grabbed this one today.
It's from an '08. with 96k miles and a 6 month/6k mile warranty. All together, not including core was $1200. May have been high, but I'm so slammed with work these days (playgrounds sell like hotcakes in spring) I don't have time to hunt thru pick-a-part yards. The same yard had some corolla's with 15k lower miles for just $50 more, but it sounded like they weren't going to honor the warranty if it didn't go in the same (family) of cars, so I took what I could get.

Anything major I need to know before tearing in? I'm planning to just pull it out the top and leave the trans in place.

vibrologist · Post by **vibrologist** » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:50 pm

That looks like a reasonable deal.
I have no experience with replacing the engine. Someone else needs to help.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:27 am

I've swapped slant 6 to small block before (swapping k-member), pulled transmissions and helped my brother cram a quad 4 in his fiero, so I'm not too intimidated, just never know what unique issues you run into on a particular car. Looks pretty straight forward.

vibrologist · Post by **vibrologist** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:48 am

If the Haynes manual is any good at all it would be for this job. Also search youtube and the respective enthusiast websites on Vibe/Matrix/Corolla.

My last engine removal was in a VW 1300: a few cables, the fuel line and 4 bolts.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:13 am

If only Tucker's 15 minute engine swap had become an industry standard

lannvouivre · Post by **lannvouivre** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:07 am

It's a very easy job. The engine mounts are a pain to align, and you'll probably want to pull the intake and exhaust manifolds, but that's about it. If you wanted to rebuild the other engine and render it basically new, a new crankshaft would probably be $275 remanufactured or $500 new, but you still don't know what caused the failure in the first place.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:22 am

Well... I probably do know, though i'm not sure if it's related to the earlier misfire issues.
Me getting way too busy with work (80 mile commutes per day/constant late nights/overnights/weekends) and neglecting it and realizing how many thousands of extra miles went by before i remembered to change the oil, pretty sure I just killed it myself (things i used to get away with with that Slant 6).

I'm just going to strip all the new parts from it and return it for the core.
At this point, I am planning to keep the car long term (will just have to find narrower booster seats). If it weren't for the cost of a full rebuild kit being $500 or so, plus the crank and any incidentals, I'd consider doing the rebuild, but all in, i may be about as well off just swapping until they run out of low mile motors. By then though, maybe I can consider something crazy like a 2.4L upgrade.

vibrologist · Post by **vibrologist** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:13 am

.......besides, you have to spend quality time with the occupants of the booster seats! The window for that closes mighty fast.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:09 pm

Amen, Already missed a few beautiful weekends working on this instead of outside enjoying it with them.

20150918_114930 by LodeCreative, on Flickr
Backpacks are more fun than boosters.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:08 pm

Well. I guess I'm committed now.

20160326_190318 by LodeCreative, on Flickr

lannvouivre · Post by **lannvouivre** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:03 pm

A better upgrade would be the 2ZZ. Easier, too. At that point, though, you'd be better off selling this car and going to a GT, barring sentimental attachment.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:41 pm

It's an automatic, hate to waste a good GT motor on a commuter. And I couldn't find any close by, though the 2.4 Scion motor was tempting.

tpollauf · Post by **tpollauf** » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:55 am

Yep ... I'd say there's no turning back now

Love that Orange metallic color

noguice wrote:I've swapped slant 6 to small block before (swapping k-member), pulled transmissions and helped my brother cram a quad 4 in his fiero, so I'm not too intimidated, just never know what unique issues you run into on a particular car. Looks pretty straight forward.

I too did a very similar swap out some 35 years ago. Went from an original 250 Chevy inline 6 to a Plymouth 225 slant six to eventually to a 283 small block Chevy all in a '74 Camaro. A little bit of work but everything fit just fine!

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:13 pm

20160328_201353 by LodeCreative, on Flickr

It's getting there slowly. Got the new one dropped in, but still need to line it up better before i torque it down.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:26 pm

tpollauf wrote:Yep ... I'd say there's no turning back now Love that Orange metallic color

noguice wrote:I've swapped slant 6 to small block before (swapping k-member), pulled transmissions and helped my brother cram a quad 4 in his fiero, so I'm not too intimidated, just never know what unique issues you run into on a particular car. Looks pretty straight forward.
I too did a very similar swap out some 35 years ago. Went from an original 250 Chevy inline 6 to a Plymouth 225 slant six to eventually to a 283 small block Chevy all in a '74 Camaro. A little bit of work but everything fit just fine!

Thanks, I looked around specifically for either an Orange or Moonstone with color keyed bumpers/trim, and probably paid too much for this one. In any case, I like cars to stand out alittle and may consider doing my other wagon in the same color once I get it up and running again.

2011-06-13_17-33-56_461 by LodeCreative, on Flickr

The slant in a Camaro had to be an interesting site, bet it got some odd looks. I wish I still had that engine in the Dart, it could take some serious abuse. Once had a radiator hose blow on it and didn't realize what had happened, only that it was stuttering a bit at speed and up hill(temp gauge didn't work), got home over 100 miles later including 30-40 miles of interestate speed and some pretty steep hills. It had gotten hot enough the exhaust manifold had gone from rust red to charred white. New hose, some fluid and an oil change and it was going again.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:14 am

20160401_225054 by LodeCreative, on Flickr

Almost there, a few odds and ends to finish up and should be able to fire it up in an hour or two.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:22 am

For some reason, I just cannot get the belt from the old engine to fit the new one. I've tried everything, giving up and getting a GT belt which is about 2" longer.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:32 pm

20160402_150122 by LodeCreative, on Flickr

It's in and running. The smoke went away pretty quick, figure it's just from the gasket. There was some valve noise, but after a few miles it's settled down to a normal (for these cars) level. Seemed to drive pretty well.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:34 pm

20160402_172517 by LodeCreative, on Flickr

And I even gave her a bath

vibrologist · Post by **vibrologist** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:16 pm

Congrats! That's a job well done!

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:27 pm

Thanks! And thanks for all the help.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:56 pm

Alright, I'm about 450 miles into the new engine and so far driving has been great (other than my tires needing re-balancing), but the idle is still rough.

I know it can take sometime for the computer to recalibrate, but realistically I would have assumed it would have by now. Should I give it some more time, reset it and let it do it again, or start looking for issues? There's no codes, it's got the brand new OEM plugs and the coils I put on the old engine a couple months ago, same new vacuum lines, though the PCV hose is the one that was on the replacement engine (with original spring clamps), I'll swap that out and see if it makes a difference. The intake has a new fram gasket with no RTV and is properly torqued, but I understand the toyota gasket is much better, I just couldn't get one as quick as I wanted, so i may swap that out.

Should I just give it another day or so?

lannvouivre · Post by **lannvouivre** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:17 pm

What idle speed? You should be over 800 RPM when at operating temp. If you have a scanner, check fuel trims and make sure you don't have a vacuum leak.

If your idle is in an acceptable range, check for a loose or worn engine mount, and maaaybe check the harmonic balancer and make sure it's not bent or that it hasn't ejected the rubber insert that goes around between the hub and the pulley's belt surface.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:24 pm

The idle speed is just right, 800rpm and steady with no surging. Fuel trim is also well within normal perimeters.

I'll take a look at the HB and mounts. Luckily I've not returned the old engine for the core yet, so I could just swap the HB out and see if it helps.

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:27 pm

one thought. Don't know if it would make a difference.
I know if you pull an engine with an auto trans, your suppose to realign the Torque Converter to the same position on the flywheel or flexplate. The new engine was out of a manual car, I didn't see any way of aligning it to anything specifically, is there something the TC/Flywheel needed to be aligned with on the engine itself?

noguice · Post by **noguice** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:14 am

Haven't worked on it a whole lot lately, but think I just happened to figure out the cause of the vibration. It does appear to be an engine mount, the back one's bushing has separated from the housing.

20160425_120100 by LodeCreative, on Flickr

lannvouivre · Post by **lannvouivre** » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:24 am

That black piece is just a dust cap. Remove it and look under it. The real mount bushing has 3 rubber spokes going out to the walls.