2004 Vibe [base]; absolutely nothing when key in ignition

[NateStraight]

Story:

I left my key in the on position overnight. Stupid mistake #1.

Stupid mistake #2 was attempting to jump it with reversed jumper cables. "Battery terminal protector" I sprayed to prevent some incessant corrosion turned negative terminal red; didn't even think to read the battery, just went by color.

Headlights were on when trying to jump with reversed cables. Realized the error. No smoke, no sparks, no melting jumper cables, other car seems fine... but... after putting the cables back on correctly, I am getting absolutely nothing.

Have put fresh battery in [old only pulled up to 11.75V], still nothing.

No headlight, no other lights. I put the key in the ignition and get silence and nothing happening at all.

Main fuse seems to be good. Power flows to alternator, to main fuse box, various other places. Nothing that I can SEE appears to be wrong or out of place.

Background:

This car has had intermittent electric issues before this [power door locks failing, radio lights funky, blower motor not blowing]. Stupid mistake #3: To get the blower motor to start, we sometimes kick the underside of the dash; turns out that's where the ECM is.

Could a blown ECM due to repeated kicking / denting + the reversed jumper cable fiasco be to blame?

Any other ideas?

Thanks.

[NateStraight]

Is there another in-line main fuse not in either fuse compartment that may have blown?

[NateStraight]

Also: Have read security lockout of ignition switch may be at fault; but, this car has no security device as far as I know.

[NateStraight]

Found: 100A Alternator fuse was busted; jumped across it, headlights come on but car still won't start. In fact, the lights won't even go out... even weirder.

[NateStraight]

Ok, so wasn't thorough enough checking fuses. Checked all fuses described here [viewtopic.php?t=36087#p461658] but unlike the previous poster, I get no cranking or turn over whatsoever [although the car will now at least attempt it]. Starter relay? Starter? ?

[A Psycho Martyr]

Have you tried having someone turn your key to the START position while you tap on the starter pretty good with a wrench or something?


My uncle (Toyota Master Mechanic) suggested this to me when I had similar problems. Got my car started up.


If it works, then your starter will go out very soon. Well...it's already going out, but soon it won't crank at all.


Just a thought. Try getting someone to start it while you tap on that starter.

[Chiadog]

PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF?

[JohnO]

I think you may have some damaged relays and maybe fried electronics. Relays tend to weld their contacts together when abused, could be what happened to the headlights. Do you have the schematics for your car? I have them for my '06 base so if they are similar enough I could give you some suggestions about what to look at.

[NateStraight]

No, I don't have any schematics / wiring diagrams. That would be helpful.

Have now got the car to start by connecting direct to battery.

Ran current through starter relay and it would not stay engaged, so went and got a new one.... no help, same story as before.

Does the engine control unit have anything to do with the starter system? Something seems to be preventing the relay from staying open.

[joatmon]

No, I don't have any schematics / wiring diagrams. That would be helpful.

There's a linktoward the bottom of viewtopic.php?f=28&t=40113" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to a pdf matrix service manual that includes wiring diagrams, applies to your 04 vibe as well, should prove useful,

[NateStraight]

Great, thanks. Downloading now.

If I can jump the starter directly, could the solenoid still be bad?

Or is it likely that there's a short in the wire headed to the starter?

[joatmon]

so far it seems that everyone who has reverse jumped a Vibe has only blown fuses. Damaging relays or wiring could happen, I suppose, but since it hasn't been reported here on a vibe yet, I'd be inclined to think maybe there's a fuse you missed. In the other thread you listed fuses you found bad, how about the 30A MAIN fuse? The starting circuit diagram shows that's a player ( viewtopic.php?f=30&t=32849" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has the starter circuit PDF and a diagram of the location of the starter relay.

I'd use a voltmeter to check various points in the circuit, perhaps pull the starter relay and see if it is getting 12V, both for the contact power and on the coil when the key is turned.

Is the starter the only single electrical thing that doesn't work, or are there other things that still don't work since the incident?

[NateStraight]

Yeah, I pulled and replaced the Main fuse, the AM2 fuse, the Dome fuse, and the EFI fuse from that other thread. All were bad.

The starter is the only thing electrical that is out as far as I can tell. I can hear a few clicks in various places in the dash when I try to start, and you hear the starter try to crank once and then stop.

The car is automatic and doesn't have the security features, so it doesn't seem I should have anything except the starter, relay, ignition switch, and ecm in play here from what I can tell from the diagrams.

I was thinking it might be the ECM, but nothing else seems to be malfunctioning; I drove it down the highway and back ~15 miles.

[NateStraight]

In the "Inspect ECM" procedure described in the manual you linked to, I pass every test except fail to find 6V or more between STA and E1 when attempting to crank the engine [of course, the engine won't crank normally to begin with; does that matter for the test?].

Looking more like a blown ECM, I guess?

[NateStraight]

I get about 8.5v across the 1st and 2nd contacts of the starter relay when I try to turn the key.

[NateStraight]

I tried jumping across the entire ECM system by shorting between two connectors at a junction point that were indicated as an input / output to that loop of the system; did not seem to affect anything.

[NateStraight]

Current status:

All electrical systems seem to function except starter; call will start by jumping directly to starter, and drives fine.

Replaced starter relay and all blown fuses; starter relay will click 3 or 4 times when engaged, and turn over once only.

Checked EFI relay which powers ECM. Fine. Check Engine light comes on when key turned to "on"; indicating power.

Try again tomorrow.

[JohnO]

I get about 8.5v across the 1st and 2nd contacts of the starter relay when I try to turn the key.

Was this with the relay in place?

It seems like you may not be getting enough current through the starter relay coil to hold the relay contacts in. Maybe you could check the resistance between starter relay contact 2 and ground (with relay removed).

Also, from relay contact 1 to the ignition switch contact 4. If you have a manual transmission you will need to hold the clutch in.

[NateStraight]

That was with the relay out.

I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and report; I really can't afford the computer replace right now, so I'm trying to rule everything else out before shelling out money for something that may or may not be busted.

[JohnO]

That was with the relay out.

I haven't found in the instructions where it talks about this test, but I think it should be with the relay in place. It tests whether there is adequate current to activate the relay. Without the relay in place I don't see why this shouldn't be the full battery voltage. There may be a partial short to ground or damaged wire or contact somewhere in the circuit.

Since the car runs OK once it is started your ECM is almost certainly just fine. The two connections to the ECM in the starter circuit are signals to the ECM to tell it the starter status. The ECM doesn't control anything about the starter circuit.

[JohnO]

Looking at the starter circuit again, the ignition switch may be the weak link in the whole thing. You could try jumping between terminals 4 and 5 to see if it will crank normally. Of course, with the manual transmission you will need to press the clutch.

Do you have the automatic or manual transmission?

[NateStraight]

A/T.

I'll definitely be checking the ignition circuitry today, thanks.

Probably also will bring the starter and other battery in to be checked.

[NateStraight]

Hot mama!

I checked continuity from IG4 to SR1; fine. Checked continuity from SR2 to Gr; fine.

Put a bare wire jumper between IG4 and IG5; car tried to crank as soon as I put the negative battery cable back on [weird; key was not in].

Didn't do anything with the jumper in with the key; BUT, after I removed the jumper, I gave it a few quick tries... first time it turned over three or four times; second attempt... it works!

I can't imagine anything I did differently except possibly having so many attempts yesterday to start drained the system too much...

Is it likely this will continue to function, or do I possibly still have a bad starter and/or batt?

I guess I'll take them in to be sure.

[NateStraight]

Ran it around the block; it is running a little rough, and idling lower than it normally does.

Of course, it has tended to idle incredibly high [up to 2000]; right now, sitting in the driveway, it's idling at around 800. Maybe a change for the better?

[Rayven01]

Ran it around the block; it is running a little rough, and idling lower than it normally does.

I believe that's pretty typical after the ECU resets due to power loss (disconnecting battery long enough). It will "relearn" as you drive.

[NateStraight]

Ran it around the block; it is running a little rough, and idling lower than it normally does.

I believe that's pretty typical after the ECU resets due to power loss (disconnecting battery long enough). It will "relearn" as you drive.

Great. I've kept it idling for awhile now in the drive and am about to go take it up to highway speed for a bit.

[NateStraight]

No problem driving it around at all, but after turning it back off and waiting for a couple hours to cool down, tried starting it again and got nothing once again. I think the starter had just enough in it this morning to give it one good go, but nothing now.

[NateStraight]

Starter checks out. Will clean it up before putting back on, but I'm running out of ideas. Bought a new negative terminal to replace the cruddy OEM term.

[NateStraight]

I took the old starter relay, removed the top cover, put alligator clips across pins 1 and 2, stuck it back in the fuse box and gave it 12v from a spare battery while the key was "on"... started without problem. Something preventing 12v from reaching the relay seems to be my problem; all I see between the ignition switch and the relay is the park/neutral switch and the ECM.

So.. park/neutral switch? Or wiring?

[NateStraight]

Bypassed P/N Switch; still nothing.

Are y'all sure the ECM is unrelated?

Is there a diode or something that could have blown out when the car was jumped and is affecting only this part of the system?

Something between the ignition and the starter relay is dropping my voltage from 12v to around 8v. Any other ideas, anyone?

[JohnO]

Hot mama!
Put a bare wire jumper between IG4 and IG5; car tried to crank as soon as I put the negative battery cable back on [weird; key was not in].

Didn't do anything with the jumper in with the key; BUT, after I removed the jumper, I gave it a few quick tries... first time it turned over three or four times; second attempt... it works!

I'm pretty sure you found the problem here: the ignition switch. Jumpering IG4 and IG5 should make the car behave like the key has been turned to "start." The contacts in the switch are probably burned and have too much resistance to hold the ignition relay in.

[NateStraight]

Hot mama!
Put a bare wire jumper between IG4 and IG5; car tried to crank as soon as I put the negative battery cable back on [weird; key was not in].

Didn't do anything with the jumper in with the key; BUT, after I removed the jumper, I gave it a few quick tries... first time it turned over three or four times; second attempt... it works!

I'm pretty sure you found the problem here: the ignition switch. Jumpering IG4 and IG5 should make the car behave like the key has been turned to "start." The contacts in the switch are probably burned and have too much resistance to hold the ignition relay in.

That's what we thought a second ago, so we re-tested; we pulled the connector to the ignition switch to bypass it entirely, jumped across IG4 and IG5 again, but it displayed the same one-crank symptom we've had all along. That should indicate the ignition switch is not the problem, yes? Or am I just making myself confused? When the car actually started, it was connected entirely "spec"; no jumpers or extra voltage anywhere.

Could the IG1 relay be something to try? I see it in the system on one wiring diagram I have, but not in another.

[NateStraight]

NVM: pulled and tested IG1 relay; it's fine. P/W relay was out, but that hardly seems relevant... regardless, swapped it with working relay from Fog.

[NateStraight]

Yeah, I'm looking through the ECM diagram / info, and it seems it shouldn't matter... all of the connections are only inputs; and it's wired in parallel to the starting circuit, so any extra resistance there may or may not be in there should be ineffective, yes?

[NateStraight]

Just managed to get it going again; doing nothing except trying it a few more times after checking this last round of relays.

Not sure what else to do at this point except trace every wire in the system and check continuity through each stretch.

[JohnO]

That's what we thought a second ago, so we re-tested; we pulled the connector to the ignition switch to bypass it entirely, jumped across IG4 and IG5 again, but it displayed the same one-crank symptom we've had all along. That should indicate the ignition switch is not the problem, yes? Or am I just making myself confused? When the car actually started, it was connected entirely "spec"; no jumpers or extra voltage anywhere.

Could the IG1 relay be something to try? I see it in the system on one wiring diagram I have, but not in another.

OK. So it isn't the ignition switch.

How about the park/neutral switch? You could remove the connector from the switch and jump from terminal 6 to 9. Then try the ignition switch.

[NateStraight]

Yep, we had jumped across the park/neutral switch, too... same story, no crank.

[NateStraight]

Any harm in just setting up a jerry-rigged "push to start" button that supplies 12v directly to the starter relay on its own or some such?

There's even a momentary switch right there by the relays, for the rear window glass which we never use; it's probably got a fuse, too.

[JohnO]

Any harm in just setting up a jerry-rigged "push to start" button that supplies 12v directly to the starter relay on its own or some such?

The thought had occurred to me. Kind of "Nascar" style. But you need to be careful since there won't be a park/neutral lock-out unless you wire through that as well.

[NateStraight]

Ah. Good catch.

That'd be a bit tougher than my originally devised system... I wonder if there are any other switches that are linked to the P/N switch?

I imagine actually starting up the car won't be a problem... unlikely I'll be sitting there with the key to "On" and shifting into D before starting.

But, it does seem like there wouldn't be anything to keep someone from accidentally hitting the switch while the car was on the road.

I assume the outcome of that would be no good?

[JohnO]

But, it does seem like there wouldn't be anything to keep someone from accidentally hitting the switch while the car was on the road.

I assume the outcome of that would be no good?

Actually, come to think of it that could be why the ECU needs to know the state of the P/N switch. I believe that the rear window switch is locked out while the car is moving. You could try it out.

It would be bad for the starter to engage while the engine is at speed. Maybe not catastrophic the first time, but it won't last long.

I really think you should be able to track down the problem, though. You need to step through each node of the starter circuit with a voltmeter and look for where the voltage is dropping. Measure the voltage relative to ground at each point. Start at the two terminals of fuse AM2, then on to terminals 5 and 4 of the starter switch and so forth until you get to the starter solenoid. At some point you should find where the voltage is dropping. To measure the voltage at terminal 4 of the ignition switch and after, you will need to turn the switch to "start" while you measure. You could disconnect the wire at the starter solenoid to prevent the starter from actually running.

[JohnO]

I had another thought, too. Try disconnecting the two wires that go to the ECU at the junction connector J6. Then see if the starter is normal. Could be a partial short with one of those wires is not letting the starter relay engage.

[NateStraight]

I can't see easily where that junction connector would be, unless it's somewhere in the giant harness that goes behind the blower housing.

Voltage is good through the ignition switch; I can't seem to get the same reading at pin 12 on connector IG3 that I get at the ignition, though.

I get about 14.5V to ground at the 4 pin on the ignition switch, but when I read at the 12 pin on the connector down by the ECM, I can only get ~9v.

I seem to get about the same at the 11 pin, and putting the voltmeter directly between 11 and 12 shows no voltage differential when cranking.

[NateStraight]

I'd like to be getting nothing if I put the voltmeter between the 4 pin on the ignition switch and the 12 or 11 pin on the IG3 connector and crank it, right? I'm reading anywhere from around 3v to around 5v.

[NateStraight]

Anyone have the full wiring schematic for that switch?

All I can find is that it has 5 pins, and that 1-3 is open, 2-3 is closed.

It seems 4 and 5 are probably somehow related to an ignition switch and speed sensor.

[NateStraight]

Got it. It's the wire from the 4 pin on the ignition switch to the 12 pin on the IG3 connector; shorted across it with a clean wire and it starts just fine. I just got to get to that wire harness.

Thanks one and all.

[NateStraight]

GGGGRRRAAAAAUUUURRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!

Some fool who owned the car before me must have installed an aftermarket alarm that they never told me about.

In taking out the radio to get to the wiring harness to pass the new wire through from the ignition switch, I see a little electric box shoved up there...

Sure enough, it's hooked up to the ignition switch with crimps way under the dash where I didn't see it previously.

Ended up running the new wire anyway since I'd already cut the old one at one end, but obviously the only thing wrong all this time was that stupid alarm.

[JohnO]

Wow! Glad you got it figured out. It seemed like there had to be a short to ground somewhere in order to get the voltage drop like that.