Coil Pack Failures! Now 7 in 2 years?

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:57 am

Alright guys I'm on Coil Pack #6 in my 05 Matrix XR A/T AWD in 2 years. 1st was replaced by Toyota 18 months ago, 3 more were replaced 1 year ago (only one failed but the other 2 were leaking), 6 months ago by Toyota (it was done under warranty because they couldn't tell me which one the replace before), then #6 today. I was going to run my daughter to a friends, then install the new AT Fluid cooler (had an appointment next week to replace rear diff seal and upgrade to Amsoil and change out tranny fluid to AMSoil. It started fine but all of a sudden it was missing and no CEL at first but finally gave a P0301. I first check the TuRD ECU connections and finally removed it and still idled rough. I disconnected #1 coil pack and the idle remained the same. After shutting down the engine I pulled #1 coil pack and Spark plug, the plug was wet with gas. I pulled #2 coil pack and spark plug, that plug was dry. Both plug re-installed but the coil packs were reversed. Started it and idled rough but no code at first, pulled connector on #2 coil pack, no change in idle, pulled #1 coil pack car almost stalled. Pulled #2 coil pack took it to O'Reilly Auto Parts (where 3 were bought) and had them replace it under warranty. Installed and the car ran fine. To be honest, I think it was the Toyota Coil Pack (not O'Reilly)because it was the only one with a brass colored mounting grommet, the other 3 were silver. So what is causing these things to crap out! 6 of them in 2 years! I've reinforced my ground in the engine!

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:27 pm

That's odd. No idea what might be killing them, it seems to be an uncommon failure on these engines, so for you to have so many implies there must be another cause.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:13 am

My engine was overhaul by toyota at 23K miles. At 70K miles started having coil pack failures. Now I have 6 failures in 2 years (92K miles on engine)

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:47 am

What are your spark plug gaps?Did you change the spark plugs when you supercharged to one range colder?Check the plugs on your injectors for cracked or split wires.Since you had this issue prior to the SC install, has the ECU been replaced at some point?Any exposed wires at the coil?

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:03 am

I did put in the cooler plugs and gapped them with the SC. Toyota replaced the plugs when the first coil pack failed at 70K miles. I'm not sure what the injectors would have to do with it but I'll check them over also with the coils wires and plugs. To my knowledge the ECU hasn't been replaced although there is a TSB about it being reflashed and the P/N being changed. However mine is the orginal P/N and has not been reflashed to my knowledge.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:23 am

Quote, originally posted by rmckinjr »I did put in the cooler plugs and gapped them with the SC. Toyota replaced the plugs when the first coil pack failed at 70K miles. I'm not sure what the injectors would have to do with it but I'll check them over also with the coils wires and plugs. To my knowledge the ECU hasn't been replaced although there is a TSB about it being reflashed and the P/N being changed. However mine is the orginal P/N and has not been reflashed to my knowledge. The wires on the injectors, not the injectors them self. As you already know if there is any load resistance in the wires when there shouldn't be will cause the ECU to work the coils hotter and longer to fire.Quite possible the dealer didn't replace with the right plugs, which will cause the coil packs to work harder to fire.The ECU replacement is only for the 2wd models. I have yet to hear them add the AWD ecu to the list.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:48 am

No the ECU wasn't not scheduled to be replaced but reflashed (need to find the TSB again). Something to do with the O2 sensor I believe. I still have the plugs they installed and will check them to make sure but the first crapped at with the other plugs.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:03 am

Also keith I not sure what the injectors/connectors/wires have to with the the igintion coil packs/connectors/plugs/wires?

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:14 am

I had a problem with the ignition coil blowing on a new 1977 Buick back when the warranty was only 12 months. Dealer couldn't figure it out - I wrote to GM and they said to go to my dealer. Duh! Finally went to a local shop that specialized in electrical issues - they said it was probably the spark plug wires. Replaced those - problem went away.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:23 am

No plug wires on these cars. Will be check spark plug gap today.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:03 am

Strange. I know you have been having this issue. No idea why. Haven't heard of this happening really much at all.

djkeev · Post by **djkeev** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:10 am

I was wondering as I read your post about the infrequency of this problem on these engines.Then I read on and you state that the engine was rebuilt at some point.Ding Ding Ding!! Most likely you've got a ground wire that hasn't been reconnected or poorly reconnected. I'd get out the wiring diagram and start tracing wires and making sure they are connected and are clean and tight.You are an isolated case, you have had your engine removed. Most of us haven't had this joy yet. That's my educated guess anyway.Dave

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:10 am

If you had the engine rebuilt and this started happening after that, my guess is there is a wire that is shorted or cut or half cut. The term "needle in a haystack" comes to mind.The reason why I say check the wires at the injectors is because, it's all tied together. The ecu sends a signal to the injectors when to spray, then send a signal to the coils to fire the plugs, if there is a short someplace or a cracked split wire, it will cause the ecu to get mixed signals and work the coils longer and in turn get hotter causing them to fail. I know it's easy for me to sit here and say, start checking the wiring for splits cracks or small brakes but IMO if you don't you will continue burning them out till you find the electrical component that is causing the issue.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:14 am

Well it looks like I have several paths. 1) Break down the wire harness in the engine bay and inspect the wiring for damage. Especially the Coil wires to the ECU. 2) Replace the ECU. The engine failure was never explained. 3) Just replace the wiring harness.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:41 pm

Quote, originally posted by rmckinjr » 3) Just replace the wiring harness. this would be the quickest IMO

ou.grizzly · Post by **ou.grizzly** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:44 am

Might have something to do with your S/C...

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:53 am

Quote, originally posted by ou.grizzly »Might have something to do with your S/C... It started way before the S/C.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:08 am

Quote, originally posted by ou.grizzly »Might have something to do with your S/C... It started about 70K miles, I didn't put the SC on until 90K miles. Replaced 5 before the SC and only one after.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:10 am

Anyone know where I can find a wiring harness? I beleive an 03-04 AT Rolla/Trix/Vibe will work along with 03-06 AT AWD Trix/Vibe.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:22 pm

I'm almost certain it isn't the ECU right now. I beleive it's either a problem with the coil connectors or the wiring to them.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:02 pm

Well I broke down the wiring for the ignition coils and came across a couple of surprises. 1) The ignition wires run all the way around the front of the engine to the coils. I though it branched off just before going through the firewall. That seems like a long unnecessary run. 2) The 12V lead to #1 coil had a foot long loop in it the was taped up around #4 coil wires. Why they would do the beyond me. They should have taken it out and re-terminated it at the coil. I found no damage or discoloration in the connectors or wires. Checked the voltage, with the ignition on, and all appeared good along with the grounds. This weekend I'll break done the wiring harness back to the firewall and make sure it's all ok there. I may even pull the extra loop out for #1 and fix it back at the ECU. Oh the FUN! Some strange engineering and shoddy workmanship here.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:39 pm

Quote, originally posted by rmckinjr »No plug wires on these cars. Will be check spark plug gap today.I'll be darned! Shows how little attention I pay to what's under the hood. But then how do the spark plugs connect to what used to be called the distributor (I think)?

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:42 pm

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »I'll be darned! Shows how little attention I pay to what's under the hood. But then how do the spark plugs connect to what used to be called the distributor (I think)?the coils mount directly to the spark plugs.Think of the coils on our cars as spark plug wires and distributors in one.Some cars still run wires from the coil packs to the spark plugs. coils started to replaced the distributor on engines starting about 20-25 years ago.Your showing your age Jake LOL

djkeev · Post by **djkeev** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:03 pm

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »I'll be darned! Shows how little attention I pay to what's under the hood. But then how do the spark plugs connect to what used to be called the distributor (I think)?Yep you now have a mini coil for every spark plug. The distributor has been replaced by a sensor built into either the cam, crank or flywheel, depending upon the brand of car and design used. The sensor tells the ECU what the RPM's are a signal is sent to each individual coil at the right time to fire. Ingeniously simple and when it works, it works really really well. When it doesn't work? Well many $$'s are often required for frustrating diagnosis time and parts!Dave

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:03 pm

Quote, originally posted by djkeev »Ingeniously simple and when it works, it works really really well. When it doesn't work? Well many $$'s are often required for frustrating diagnosis time and parts!The hell you say....LOL!

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:35 am

Ok while braking down the wiring harness I ran across a small Capacitor P/N 90980-04154 (Toyota refers to it as a condevsor) that is not documented. It is on the 12v supply to the ignition coils located on under the wiring harness & fuel rail left (driver side). It's spliced in where the 12V and all the ignition coils meet. If this thing failed would it cause the coils to crap out? I figured it was more for voltage stabilzation/noise reduction? It's not shorting to ground but my meter at the house doesn't test CAPs. Anyone have any ideas? Oh by the way I didn't see any issues with the wiring harness yet. Did re-terminate the coil/ecu ground leads they looked a little iffy where they connected to the block.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:21 pm

Well I ordered the part today. The Local dealships said it would be 8-10 days out and $35. I ordered it online for $30 incl. shipping. Don't think it will fix it but it's work a shot.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:24 am

Interesting. Hope it solves your problem. Sucks that you have to go thru and try to eliminate all possibilities to try and hunt down the cause.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:39 am

It's seems to be a rare problem! You would think between here MO, 9thgen and NewC someone has dealt with this.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:14 am

Well I have another one going out. The car was missing several times on the way home. No CEL yet and it's intermittent so I'm not sure which Cylinder it is yet. I'm not sure if it is caused by previous damage or my issue hasn't been fix. Will be dragging my O-scope home this weekend and start looking at coil signals, grounds and voltages. CHIT! COIL PACK #7!

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:35 pm

Ok the Coil packs are OK. The TRD ECU harness is messed up (broken solder joint?). I had swapped the TRD ECUs (A/T - M/T) and still had the miss (no codes, but flickering lights). So it goes back to a problem a from 3 weeks ago. Thought about making a harness for the TRD ECU and doing away with the TRD adapter for the OEM ECU There was no doubt about coil pack #6 being bad because it was missing with or with the TRD ECU installed. For S&Gs I had the Greddy EMU installed with no issues. My O-scope testing was inclusive because of the issues I was having with it (my signals would come and go, bad switches just a very old O-scope). So where am I? Well I ordered an used OEM ECU off e-bay for $60. When it comes in it'll need to be re-flashed by the dealership ($120). Don't know if that will fix my coil pack failures or not. But still cheaper fix than 2 OEM coil packs. Right now I have the GReddy EMU installed but no tuning maps. Will be bumping an old post for help getting MAPS and for help setting up the 5th injector.

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:45 pm

Just an update:Replaced the condensor (CAP) on the 12v supply of the coils. Removed the "loop" from the #1 coil ((removed) spliced). Have a "new" used ECU ready to be flashed by dealer ($120). Based upon the history it seems only #1 and #3 coils have really crapped out (2 each). #2 and #4 were replaced out of concern that they may be going out (wished I would have kept them). If the "new" ECU doesn't stop them from crapping out I'll be pulling new wires from the ECU to the coils. Still have the TRD ECU and adapter out.

mrkrause · Post by **mrkrause** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:04 pm

I'm following your progress Salsa Guy.....How's it going ? You must be totally crazed over this ........

Salsa Guy · Post by **Salsa Guy** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:48 pm

It hasn't been an issue for 2 years now. I believe some of it has been due to faulty solder joints I used to install the EMU/AEM. So it was some SIS (self induced stupidity)

JermzNct · Post by **JermzNct** » Mon Dec 09, 2024 11:34 am

This is a common issue for Toyota and vibe. Here are the 2 things I did:
1 buy a coil from the autoparts store that has a guarantee or is warranteed. If you burn out another coil, take out that burned coil (even if it's stock) put it in the box of the last one you picked up and return it. They do not check nor do they care. SWIM did this 7 times and only paid for one of them. Any time you get that skip- break out the code reader and find out what cylinder has the misfire and pull out that newly burned coil and place it in the box that the coil you picked up last time came in and return it. When you get the new coil, SAVE THE BOX.
Second thing I did: DO NOT PUT THE COVER BACK ON. The cover just holds in heat and shortens the life of the coils. Since doing this i went from burning a coil every few months to burning a coil once a year. Also those ten mm bolts that bolt the coils down into the aluminum intake are very suseptible to stripping. The head of the bolt does not strip, the threads inside the intake do. Be careful and just snug them up. Same goes for the electrical rail you have to unbolt from the intake to get coil 2 and 3 out, it strips so easy. If you do strip it, put a piece of paper or a toothpick in the hole with the bolt.

jolt · Post by **jolt** » Wed Dec 25, 2024 12:49 pm

I would not say this is a common problem. I would think that Salsa Guy's coil problems were the result of the bad solder joints he had. The signal coming into the coil packs is low voltage and the smallest increase in this can cause the coil voltage output to go well beyond what that the coil is designed for. The bad joints can cause voltage spikes and push the coils beyond there limits. I have a 16 year old Vibe that has 130,xxx miles on it and I have never had a coil pack go bad. Yes, things do wear out. The most common reason a coil pack goes is overheating from worn or bad spark plugs. As the spark plug gap widens with use and wear, this put a huge load on the coil packs and will cause the coils to over heat and fail. Using cheaper spark plugs will cause the spark plugs to wear quicker (gap widens and overloads the coils). Not using Denso brand spark plugs and coil packs will cause a reduced life on these items. Denso designed the electrical system in these cars and there parts are made to work together. Different brand spark plugs can have different internal resistance, which effects the load on the coils. Coil overheating is not the result of the cover on top of the engine. Leaving this cover off could cause problems for the coils as water and dirt can now get to the spark plug wells and short the coils out. The rubber boots on the coils should be changed when the plugs are changed to prevent problems with coil load. At the very least, put dialectic grease on boots before re-using them to help the seal around the spark plug if you can not change out the boots on the coils.

Mounting bolts should be torqued to there proper value to prevent the threads from being damaged. If not properly tightened, the coils could become loose and the vibration can also damage the coils. If threads are damages, they should be repaired with a thread insert.

Coil Pack Failures! Now 7 in 2 years?

Coil Pack Failures! Now 7 in 2 years?

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