Rough idle and Check engine light blinking

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:27 am

I've had problems recently with my '03 vibe running real rough. It's been -15C to -20C all week and -30C here this morning. The engine light came on yesterday, and today its started blinking after warming up a lot going up a hill... and it seems to be warming up way too quickly so I touched the radiator and it was cold, but hoses were warm leading to the motor. It sounds like my water pump is gone? Any ideas? Is is belt driven or electric on a vibe? Is this a difficult piece to replace on my own or does motor need to come out?I'm fairly handy and would rather fix the issue myself rather than pay a mechanic to assess and fix.Any input to what the issue may be?

ned23 · Post by **ned23** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:36 am

Thermostat frozen?There's a thermostat that is supposed to close when the engine is cold and then open when the engine warms up. When it is closed, it circulates coolant only through the engine and the heater. When it opens, after the enginei s warm, it begins also sending coolant to the radiator. The rough idle could just be due to the cold. What kind of oil is in the car? You might try a lighter, full-synthetic oil. It flows better in codl weather. ____________________-Disclaimer: My mechanical skills may be outdated because since I've owend vibes I've never had to fix the cars. My most recent experience is on 1990s model cars. So someone please correct me if I'm wrong

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:40 am

the thermostat could very well be the issue. will this cause extra pressure on the water pump and cause it to fail if I'm running the engine and the coolant cannot flow?I am using 5W30 full synthetic oil (for the first time in it's 5.5yr history actually)

ned23 · Post by **ned23** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:43 am

Quote, originally posted by sdavis »the thermostat could very well be the issue. will this cause extra pressure on the water pump and cause it to fail if I'm running the engine and the coolant cannot flow?I am using 5W30 full synthetic oil (for the first time in it's 5.5yr history actually)Do you have heat inside the car? If so, then your water pump may be okay. The water pump is designed to run with the thermostat closed.Is the water pump making noise? or is the engine just firing roughly? Does it ever smooth out when the car warms up?

ned23 · Post by **ned23** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:47 am

Here's another thought: Did you check to make sure that your coolant was mixed for -30? It might have frozen. You sound like a pretty competent owner but sometimes folks add water to the coolant over the summer and forget to re-winterize it. That could cause a host of other issues. There should be other signs of that.

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:06 am

there seems to be good heat inside the car. I got a hole on the radiator a couple of years ago, and had it replaced and coolant filled by a mechanic (I know, I'm due for a coolant system flush and change). So I'm not sure about the coolant type or mix ( I was just happy to be on the road again after being stranded for a day in the middle of nowhere).The ironic thing is I was going to drive the car to a friend's place who has a garage since my hands would freeze working on it outside... My initial thoughts on the rough idle was a cyclinder not firing... as my power seems to have been lost as well. But the car would not start this morning - too cold and gas froze. Started fine once temperatue climbed to -22 from -30. And, during warm-up the idle seemed nice and smooth. But it was on the way to the store first for gas line anti-freeze (since it's suppose to dip to -30 for next 2 nights again) that I noticed the temperature was about mid-way only after about a 5min drive (+5min warm-up) via a steep, 1km long hill. That's when the engine light blinking started and rough idle started.So now I'm on the forums before I start any work, because I may be over my head in diagnosting the problem

ned23 · Post by **ned23** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:23 am

It's also possible that the water temperature has nothing to do with the rough idle. It may just be so cold that your radiator is never heating up. Try covering part of it with a piece of cardboard and some duck tape. Good luck, let us know how it goes.

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:38 am

Do you have a way to get the code read? Since your check engine light was flashing, the engine is misfiring - pretty serious problem... The code will be very beneficial to you.I would do that before tearing into anything.

wyatt89 · Post by **wyatt89** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:01 am

....?

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:17 am

this message has self destructed LOL

THE VIBERATOR · Post by **THE VIBERATOR** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:35 am

haha sounds like an intake manifold vacuum leak...idk though. could be way off.

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:39 am

Quote, originally posted by wyatt89 Â»....?I guess this is a duplicate thread. *shrug*http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=36270

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:23 pm

I don't have access to a code reader, but this may be my excuse to finally buy one. So what could cause a miss-fire? clogged fuel injector? bad plug? bad coil? bad wire?Will the code be able to tell me exactly whats wrong or will I still have to do some type of process of elimination to find the source of the issue?I also though about covering the radiator, but I like your idea of only covering part of it. I'll try that too in case these issues are unrelated. This is easy enough to do, and I will be able to tell on the way to the store to buy a code reader

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:44 am

So I bought a code reader this afternoon and this is what was found:cylinder 1 misfirecylinder 2 misfirecylinder 3 misfirerandom misfireIgniter Circuit Malfunction No. 1Does this give anybody out there a clue to what is causing the misfire and how easy or complex of a fix this will be? Again, the engine seemed to run smoothly when it was cold, but started to again idle roughly and misfire once it was warmed up.

ou.grizzly · Post by **ou.grizzly** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:48 am

Coil Pack?

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:25 am

Kinda what it sounds like...Checking all the plugs and connections on the coils probably wouldn't be a bad place to start.

ou.grizzly · Post by **ou.grizzly** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:39 am

Quote, originally posted by ColonelPanic »Kinda what it sounds like...Checking all the plugs and connections on the coils probably wouldn't be a bad place to start.Yeah... The Vibe is a 2003 so it was built in 2002 which makes them around 6 years old? So maybe changing the plus, wires, and then the coils if the 1st 2 do not fix the issue.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:55 am

coil packs are pricey. Yes blinking cel usually means misfire (usually if not all the time). When was the last time you changed spark plugs? If you havent dont them within 50k miles do them asap. then see what happens.

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:30 am

I was under the impression that the vibes have coil-on plug, so I would have to replace the coils and wires as one package which is expensive? I have not priced these out yet.I will try with the plugs first, as I am likely due. I have high quality 100k plugs that I put in there about 80k ago so I'll see if that works and report back. Hopefully that's all that is needed! The igniter circuit malfunction code I got back was admittedly a little scary to see.

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:29 am

What were the numbers of the codes? There is a TSB for the intake manifold gasket leaks that has some of the symptoms you describe. It shows up mostly in cold weather.The multiple misfire codes lead me to believe there is more going on than just plugs. To verify if the coil is bad, swap it's place with another one. If the code moves to another cylinder, it's the coil. If it stays the same, it's not. These coils are pricey so you will want to make sure it is the problem before just replacing it.

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:38 am

P0301 C1 misfireP0300 randomP0302 C2 misfireP0303 C3 misfireP1300 Igniter Circuit Malfunction No.1what is a TSB? Since 3 of the 4 cylinders have misfired then theoretically I only have the 4th cylinder coil that can be considered good to be swapped with... or can it also be considered bad by the random misfire code? My understanding is that I cannot buy each coil separately, so if even if one needs to be replaced, I have to buy the whole wire/coil kit and replace everything. So testing each of them would really be a moot point no?Also, I have a hard time believing that more than one coil would go at once, let alone 3 of them. If they did, what would cause this? Could the root of the problem be at the opposite end of the wires at the distributor?In any case, I agree that testing the plugs would be the least intrusive place to start. They probably should be replaced anyway. I will also check the wires with my timing gun to see if there is electrical running through each wire.PS: there has been no mention of fuel supply at this point. Theoretically could a malfunction in fuel supply (i.e. little or no fuel) or even a lack of oxygen also cause a cylinder not to fire? or would a problem of this type come up as a different code on the reader?

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:18 am

TSB = Technical Service Bulletin. It means, "there is a known problem, here is what to look for and how to fix it."Random or cylinder misfires don't have to be coil related, the only code that points to a coil is P1300. Bad exhaust valves, leaking intake manifold, vacuum leaks will also cause misfire codes.The only code you got that isn't on the TSB is the P1300 code. There is no distributor on your engine. There are four individual coils, called coil-on-plugs instead. Yes, they can be purchased separately, but they are around $100 each. Make sure any are bad before just swapping parts, I doubt three are bad - if any.Lack of fuel should show up as a code for 'lean condition.' Even a leaking intake should throw that code, but they don't always. The blinking CEL means catalytic damage is likely, but without a code for it you don't know which way the A/F mixture is going. Does your reader do any live data or just read codes?I agree, plugs are a good place to start, they have been in there a while. After that, I'd start looking at the intake gasket. It's cheap and relatively easy to replace if it is leaking.A timing gun will likely be useless on a coil-on-plug ignition system, btw.

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:21 pm

great info so far guys. I'm learning a lot, and I think we are getting somewhere. Unfortunately my OBD does not do live readings. Keep in mind that I know next to nothing about these readers, this is my first time using one. However here is the freeze frame data for the P0301 misfire on Cylinder 1:Fuel Sys 1: CL (closed)Fuel Sys 2: CL-FaultCalc Load %: 25.49ECT (degrees F): 68STFT B1 %: 7.81CTFT B1 %: -3.13Eng RPM: 0Veh Speed: 0IAT (degrees F): -40Does this give any clues for those who know how to read this? I have no idea what some of this info is, let alone what it could be telling me about the issue. All I know is that if the fuel system is closed, then it was warmed up already... and that the vehicle was not moving - although an Eng RPM of zero is baffling. The engine temperature was 68... but does the other info tell us something?As far as the timing gun goes, I was assuming that it would at least tell me if the coils are getting power and eliminate that possibility?

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:52 pm

Quote, originally posted by sdavis »great info so far guys. I'm learning a lot, and I think we are getting somewhere. Unfortunately my OBD does not do live readings. Keep in mind that I know next to nothing about these readers, this is my first time using one. However here is the freeze frame data for the P0301 misfire on Cylinder 1:Fuel Sys 1: CL (closed)Fuel Sys 2: CL-FaultCalc Load %: 25.49ECT (degrees F): 68STFT B1 %: 7.81CTFT B1 %: -3.13Eng RPM: 0 Veh Speed: 0IAT (degrees F): -40Does this give any clues for those who know how to read this? I was assuming that the gun would at least tell me if the coils are getting power?Most cheaper readers don't do live data, but freeze frame does help depending on what it lists.STFT is Short Term Fuel Trim, the data means it is adding fuel - which you would expect when it is cold, or had extra air coming in from somewhere. CTFT, which I suspect is LTFT or Long Term Fuel Trim, which is pulling fuel. Both of these are based on the PCMs original settings.IAT, Intake Air Temp. -40*, damn cold...The data doesn't tell me much, live data would be much better. The 0 RPM has me too, maybe it's not stored? Have you cleared the codes and waited for them to come back? I'm thinking the next set of freeze frame would have fuel added on both short term and long term fuel trim, depending on how much it was driven.The gun won't help on a COP engine. For them you need an adapter that looks like a plastic ruler - and even that barely works right. You can use a spark tester, but don't use a screwdriver!Give me a minute and I'll get the test procedures for the codes...

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:08 pm

P1300 is not listed in the factory shop manual. (?)Below is the procedure for P300-304, all the same (pictures didn't copy though-a lot of testing procedure is in them). Some of it will be hard to do without a scan tool...Personally, I would start with the plugs, then check for an intake leak. The prefered method to test is with propane, but you can use carb cleaner. Spray it around the intake manifold where it meets up with head. If the RPM changes, you have a leak. If not, test around the throttle body too.DTC P0300 RANDOM/MULTIPLE CYLINDER MISFIRE DETECTEDWhen the engine misfires, high concentrations of hydrocarbons HC) enter the exhaust gas. Extremely high HC concentration levels can cause increase in exhaust emission levels. High concentrations of HC can also cause increases in the Three-Way Catalytic Converter (TWC) temperature, which may cause damage to the TWC. To prevent this increase in emissions and to limit the possibility of thermal damage, the ECM monitors the misfire rate. When the temperature of the TWC reaches the point of thermal degradation, the ECM blinks the MIL. To monitor misfires, the ECM uses both the Camshaft Position (CMP) sensor and the Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor. The CMP sensor is used to identify any misfiring cylinders and the CKP sensor is used to measure variations in the crankshaft rotation speed. Misfires are counted when the crankshaft rotation speed variations exceed predetermined thresholds.If the misfire exceeds the threshold levels, and could cause emission deterioration, the ECM illuminates the MIL and sets DTC.HINT: When DTCs for misfiring cylinders are randomly set, but DTC P0300 is not set, it indicates that misfires have been detected in different cylinders at different times. DTC P0300 is only set when several misfiring cylinders are detected at the same time. The ECM illuminates the MIL and sets a DTC when either one of the following conditions, which could cause emission deterioration, is detected. (2 trip detection logic.) * Within the first 1,000 crankshaft revolutions of the engine starting, an excessive misfiring rate (approximately 20 to 50 misfires per 1,000 crankshaft revolutions) occurs once. * After the first 1,000 crankshaft revolutions, an excessive misfiring rate (approximately 20 to 60 misfires per 1,000 crankshaft revolutions) occurs 4 times in sequential crankshaft revolutions. The ECM flashes the MIL and sets a DTC when either one of the following conditions, which could cause the Three-Way Catalytic Converter (TWC) damage, is detected. (2 trip detection logic.) * In every 200 crankshaft revolutions at a high engine rpm, the threshold misfiring percentage is recorded once. * In every 200 crankshaft revolutions at a normal engine rpm, the threshold misfiring percentage is recorded 3 times.CONFIRMATION DRIVING PATTERN 1. Connect a hand-held tester or OBD II scan tool to the DLC3. 2. Turn the ignition switch to ON. 3. Turn the tester or scan tool ON. 4. Record the DTC(s) and freeze frame data. 5. Using the tester, switch the ECM from normal mode to check mode. 6. Read the misfire counts of each cylinder (CYL #1 to #4) with the engine in an idling condition. If any misfire count is displayed, skip the following confirmation driving pattern. 7. Drive the vehicle several times with the conditions, such as engine rpm and engine load, shown in MISFIRE RPM and MISFIRE LOAD in the DATA LIST. HINT: In order to store misfire DTCs, it is necessary to drive the vehicle for the period of time shown in the table, with the MISFIRE RPM and MISFIRE LOAD in the DATA LIST. 8. If using an OBD II scan tool, follow the operations below in order for DTCs to be set by the ECM. 1. Drive the vehicle several times with the conditions, such as engine rpm and engine load, stored in the freeze frame data. 2. Turn the ignition switch to OFF and then turn it to ON again. 3. Repeat step (1) described above. 9. Check whether misfires have occurred by checking DTCs and freeze frame data. HINT: Do not turn the ignition switch to OFF until the stored DTC(s) and freeze frame data have been recorded. When the ECM returns to normal mode (default), the stored DTC(s), freeze frame data and other data will be erased. 10. Record the DTC(s), freeze frame data and misfire counts. 11. Turn the ignition switch to OFF and wait for at least 5 seconds .HINT: * If any DTCs other than the misfire DTCs are output, troubleshoot those DTCs first. * Read freeze frame data using the hand-held tester or the OBD II scan tool. Freeze frame data record the engine conditions when malfunctions are detected. When troubleshooting, freeze frame data can help determine if the vehicle was moving or stationary, if the engine was warmed up or not, if the air-fuel ratio was lean or rich, and other data, from the time the malfunction occurred. * If the misfire does not recur when the vehicle is brought to the workshop, reproduce the conditions stored in the freeze frame data. * The misfire still cannot be reproduced even though the conditions stored in the freeze frame data have been duplicated, one of the following factors is considered to be a possible cause of the problem: 1. The fuel tank is low full. 2. Improper fuel is used. 3. The spark plugs have been contaminated. 4. The problem is complex. o After finishing repairs, check the misfire counts of the cylinders (CYL #1, #2, #3 and #4). o Be sure to confirm that no misfiring cylinder DTCs are set again by conducting the confirmation driving pattern, after repairs. o For 6 and 8 cylinder engines, the ECM intentionally does not set the specific misfiring cylinder DTCs at high engine RPM. If misfires occur only in high engine RPM areas, only DTC P0300 is set. In the event of DTC P0300 being present, perform the following operations: 1. Clear the DTC. 2. Start the engine and conduct the confirmation driving pattern. 3. Read the misfiring rates of each cylinder or DTC(s) using the tester or scan tool. 4. Repair the cylinder(s) that has a high misfiring rate or is indicated by the DTC. 5. After finishing repairs, conduct the confirmation driving pattern again, in order to verify that DTC P0300 is not set. o When one of SHORT FT #1, LONG FT #1, SHORT FT #2 or LONG FT #2 in the freeze frame data is outside the range of -20 %, the air-fuel ratio may be rich (-20 % or less) or lean (+20 % or more). o When the COOLANT TEMP in the freeze frame data is less than 75 Â°C (167 Â°F) , the misfires have occurred only while warming up the engine.CHECK FOR INTERMITTENT PROBLEMSHINT:Hand-held tester only:Inspect the vehicle's ECM using check mode. Intermittent problems are easier to detect with a hand-held tester when the ECM is in check mode. In check mode, the ECM uses 1trip detection logic, which is more sensitive to malfunctions than normal mode (default), which uses 2trip detection logic. 1. Clear DTCs. 2. Switch the ECM from normal mode to check mode using a hand-held tester. 3. Perform a simulation test. 4. Check and wiggle the harness(es), connector(s) and terminal(s).

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:16 am

wow! thanks for the info.I think I fixed the problem. Spark plugs! I'm a little embarrassed that this seems to be the problem... it was even causing hard starting, and very hard staring in cold weather. The idle was rough and I was misfiring. I had really good bosh platinum plugs in, but I guess I'm not all that happy with them - however it's been 50,000k and 2.5 years, so admittedly due. But being high grade platinum plugs I was expecting a little more out of them. They came out a little sooty, so maybe I'm running a little rich with a clogged K&N or it was the wrong heat range for the plug? one of the plugs had a small piece of ceramic blown out the side (portion in the cylinder) and the others looked really worn down. This style plug has the electrode flush with the ceramic... but some were worn down a fair amount below the ceramic.Anyhow, now it purrs so smooth and starts super well even in the -15 we have at the moment with new NGK iridium pre-gapped plugs. I'll also be changing the pcv valve just for good measure, as it's never been changed in 160,000k (not available at any local part stores until this past summer).Mind you I have not yet taken her out for a long drive, but It started up so nice and silky smooth. Night and day compared to just 20mins ago I was driving before I changed the plugs, so I think this was the issue. It does not look like my cooling system has any problems... I guess it may just heat up so well even in -30: but this is a good thing to keep good heater heat!I'll be erasing the codes and doing a little driving in the next few days to see if the light comes back on and/or if the problem returns. Thanks so much for all your input!

ou.grizzly · Post by **ou.grizzly** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:18 am

Quote, originally posted by sdavis »Anyhow, now it purrs so smooth and starts super well even in the -15 we have at the moment with new NGK iridium pre-gapped plugs. NGK FTW!Best plug out there...

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:27 am

Glad that seems to have fixed it. It is odd that three plugs would fail at the same time, but not unheard of. I'm not a fan of Bosch plugs - I have had a few that were bad right out of the box when working on my Volkswagen. I switched to NGK in that, which seems to be the general consensus on the site I go to... In the Vibe I have NGK Iridium IXs, have never checked them since I installed them.For the PCV valve, go to a Toyota dealer and pick one up, some of the Corolla guys have had problems with generics. There are two so you need to check the numbers on the one that is in there.Just driving it will make the light go out of the problem is fixed. It may take a few days, and the code may still be stored.

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:28 am

Quote, originally posted by ou.grizzly »NGK FTW!Best plug out there... X2

kunkstyle · Post by **kunkstyle** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:23 am

Wow - surprising it was plugs causing 3 cylinders at once. Odd they'd all go at once.

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:33 pm

okay so I spoke too soon. I got too excited about the nice strong quick starts and smooth cold ildle with the new plugs.I took the car out in -8 and snow storm this morning and almost as soon as I started to drive once it was warm it started to misfire again. It even stalled while reving high while spinning a bit going up a steep slippery hill.There was a hint of gasoline smell after the trip.Any ideas out there? I want to avoid a tedious coil swap, as it would be highly unlikely that I would get 3 bad coils at once... unless there is an easy way to test them individually without having to switch two, drive and observe, then repeat.... but for information what is the cylinder numbering sequence? is it 1-4 from belt to transmission or 1-4 from transmission to belt?PS: I also have a new pcv valve installed in addition to the new plugs. I also sprayed the air intake manifold with carb cleaner, and it seemed to have passed this test.

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:25 am

1-4 belt to transmissionFSM procedure for checking for spark:1. Disconnect all fuel injector connectors to prevent the engine from starting.2. Remove coil and spark plug. 3. Insert plug into coil, place spark plug to cylinder head cover.4. Crank engine for 2 seconds, look for spark.You can use the same plug for all the coils, no point in removing them all.There are a lot of systems that can be causing your codes: -open or short in engine harness. -loose connector -vacuum connection -ignition system -injector -fuel pressure -Mass Air Flow meter -Engine Coolant Sensor -compression -valve clearance -valve timing -PCV or hoses -ECMNot all of them will cause multiple cylinders to show symptoms though. If you want to try and diagnose it yourself, you should get All Data for the car. A one year subscription is around $26 - and it's basically a factory shop manual online. Even includes most part numbers...

mspalmer · Post by **mspalmer** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:34 am

Actually my 2005 AWD fired a code on the way home from work. It turns out I have a vacuum leak and the part they need is on backorder and may take up to a month to get in stock. In the mean time I can drive it but it idles rough and I'm going to be taking a hit in mileage according to my mechanic. Hopefully it will be fixed in the next couple weeks.

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:36 am

Quote, originally posted by mspalmer »Actually my 2005 AWD fired a code on the way home from work. It turns out I have a vacuum leak and the part they need is on backorder and may take up to a month to get in stock. In the mean time I can drive it but it idles rough and I'm going to be taking a hit in mileage according to my mechanic. Hopefully it will be fixed in the next couple weeks.Did they say what part it was?

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:19 am

ya, if you had the name of the part and location of the leak I could look into this on my car to see if is the same problem you are having. It sure sounds like it.

ou.grizzly · Post by **ou.grizzly** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:40 am

Quote, originally posted by mspalmer »Actually my 2005 AWD fired a code on the way home from work. It turns out I have a vacuum leak and the part they need is on backorder and may take up to a month to get in stock. In the mean time I can drive it but it idles rough and I'm going to be taking a hit in mileage according to my mechanic. Hopefully it will be fixed in the next couple weeks.Couldn't get the part through Toyota?

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:15 am

Quote, originally posted by ou.grizzly »Couldn't get the part through Toyota? Sounds like he went to the dealer. A GM dealer isn't going to use a Toyota part until it has been repackaged. I have never been to a Pontiac dealer for parts for my Vibe though...

mspalmer · Post by **mspalmer** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:26 am

As a matter of fact, I did go to the dealer since it is right on my way home and I don't even know where the Toyota dealer is in Macomb County (north of Detroit). I'm sure I'm getting taken somewhat but I just want it fixed so it is running correctly. Once it comes in and I get it installed I'll let post what it was they replaced and the GM part number from the invoice. It isn't running incredibly poor now but I notice the idle is a little "off" from where it usually is.Mike

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:37 am

The dealer comment wasn't any kind of dig, more of an answer why 'they' can't just get a Toyota part. Toyota dealers won't usually work on a Vibe (some will), most like to think it's a different car...I am curious what is getting replaced, might help cut out some diagnostic work in the future...

ou.grizzly · Post by **ou.grizzly** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:46 am

MSPalmer,Sent ya a PM regarding a Toyota Dealer in Macomb County MI.

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:10 am

I though about the injectors malfunctioning, but I found this helpful thread that may suggest injector fouling. I wonder if I can find any of this techron stuff:http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=29402I'll try the GM dealer stuff or otherwise the most potent injector cleaner I can find. I like to try the cheap/easy solutions before I decide to send the car to a mechanic to pay lots of $$$.

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:15 am

I think most auto parts stores sell Techron... I think I have purchased it at Pep Boys in the past.

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:12 am

No pepboy in Canada. I heard through another source that Techron is not available in Canada under this name, but they distributes essentially the same product under the GM injector cleaner.IF that doesnt work, someone on another thread suggested resetting the computer by disconnecting the battery for 10mins or so:Quote, originally posted by bull77 Â»i've had this happen to me with my 06 after installing my sri and a couple weeks ago.try disconnecting the neg. terminal on your battery for 10mins and then try it out.Great tip! I forgot that this resets the computer and allows it to more easily make adjustments that may be needed as driving conditions/mods affect the engine performance. After I let the potent injector cleaner do it's thing and if the problem persists I will try this:

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:48 am

Yes, the GM cleaner is the same (so I've been told). I've been trying to figure out where NB was, didn't think about Canada...

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:12 am

So this is what I've done so far:1. new plugs 2. checked for air leaks at intake and vacuum leak using carb cleaner while running (passed)3. new pcv 4. cleaned MAF sensor at intake, cleaned intake and air filter5. removed battery connection while running to test alternator6. removed battery connection for 10min to reset computer7. over 1/2 tank used with potent GM injector cleanerProblem persists... alway fine at startup if left overnight, in fact runs great with the new plugs and things newly cleaned up, but misfires begin again (rough idle, low power, threatens to stall, MIL flashes) after 5-10min of driving.I was going to clean my aic valve next but found this extra info about my code:Trouble Code: P1300Ignition Coil 1 Primary Feedback Circuit MalfunctionTrouble Code Conditions:Engine cranking or running; and the PCM did not receive any failsafe signal from Ignition Coil 1primary after two consecutive ignition trigger signal cycles were detected.Possible Causes: * Ignition coil primary circuit is open or shorted to ground * Ignition coil is damaged or has failed * Ignition system "noise" filter may be shorted to ground * PCM has failedI still don't believe it's coil related since it would be too odd that 3 of them would go at once. What is is ignition system "noise" filter? What is PCM? How do I test these for failure/shorted? In any case, if the car works fine initially before I start driving too much (upon loading? high rpm? engine temp?) then this should be hinting at the source of the problem... but I'm stuck.

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:07 am

Going by you're P1300 code, there is only one coil you need to be concerned with - number one. Swap it with another one and see if the code moves. PCM is the computer...So it runs fine when cold, but once warm it runs rough? At idle, higher rpm, or all rpm?btw, removing the battery cable to test the alt is a bad idea, especially on a computer controlled car...Where did you find the info on P1300?

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:15 am

I am also getting misfires on coils 1,2,3 and random misfire code. So will I get a P2300 code if I switch the 'bad' # 1 with #2? Will this be the indicator that #1 is bad?as for when it idles rough... definitely while low rpm with no load. I have not noticed rough idle at high rpm but can definitely feel the misfires and low power/hesitation when at high rpm with a load on. Is this what you meant?

2002sportside · Post by **2002sportside** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:24 am

Don't worry about the multiple misfires just yet, figure out the coil one first. Thats the one that stands out to me, and is easiest to check.Looking online the code should be P1300 for #1, P1305 for #2, P1310 for #3, and P1315 for #4.Is it running rough when ice cold?

sdavis · Post by **sdavis** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:58 am

just swapped #1 and #2 coil. Code reads as P1305 and misfire #2 now. looks like I'll be looking for a new coil. thanks for all the help guys!sportside you've mentioned the engine temp control valve in a PM... it was one of the first suggestions from this thread. I'll change the coil first, then hit the coolant valve next if the problem does not go away.I found the p1305 info here:http://www.autozone.com/shoppi...97981thanks for the tip on the alternator test type being a bad idea. I had no clue.