Improvment on rear suspension?

[vibedrivermatt]

Hello!I have a 2009 vibe and just figured out it has torsion bar rear suspension. I didn't really factor this in when buying but now I'm concerned. The GT and awd have double wishbone rear. Im wondering what can be done to improve the rear suspension on this car. Now I'm kinda wishing I bought a vibe GT or 2008 chevy Cobalt ss. I like stuff that goes. Torsion bar to double wishbone conversion? I know that has to be impossible but, Im just wondering.

[Raven]

Are you sure it's a torsion bar and not coil springs and a sway bar? Up to '08 this is what they had. A huge improvement in handling could be had by adding lowering springs and a bigger Progress RSB.

[vibedrivermatt]

They call it torsion bar on the website. I have to learn more about exactly what type of suspension it is and how it works. If I can make it handle better that would be great. There must be several ways to wake this car up.

[northvibe]

Um first off you bought a vibe and given that fact you will only be able to upgrade a non performance car so much. Lowering springs will help a lot with body roll and handling but will increase the bumps (had them on my 04). Also the rear sway bar upgrade (once they are out) will also help a lot, but after that its about it for suspension. theres always coil overs and/or new struts but you kinda bought the wrong car for awesome handling. I think by torsion bar they mean rear sway bar like Raven said. They dont let engineers make the website, so the people that do are about as smart as a car salesman

[Mavrik]

I really haven't followed the suspension aspects of the Vibe since I sold my 04... However if the 09 suspension is different from the previous models then you may have to wait a little while for things to become available. Providing its the same as the Matrix, your pretty much assured something will come along eventually.Previous Vibe models could be modified with coil overs, springs, sway bars... put on wider sticky tires with low profile sidewall.

[vibedrivermatt]

Right... well this is all good. The 2008 cobalt ss is awesome, just cant put as much stuff in there as a vibe. The Mazda speed 3 is also great but a little more pricey than the vibe. The Vibe GT is what I should have got... was trying to buy an American branded car too. Maybe I can get a GT once the current vibe is paid off.. by then i might love my crappy handling vibe and wont want to trade it anymore though.

[northvibe]

my bff has the 2007 cobalt SS supercharged... all sorts of parts and handles well after the springs and RSB were upgraded, goes up against the best evo's and subies on the twisties. I think once some performance parts get let out into the wild you may be happier. once i lowered my vibe it was freaking awesome at handling over stock.

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by northvibe »my bff has the 2007 cobalt SS supercharged... all sorts of parts and handles well after the springs and RSB were upgraded, goes up against the best evo's and subies on the twisties. I think once some performance parts get let out into the wild you may be happier. once i lowered my vibe it was freaking awesome at handling over stock. Yeah, the cobalts were cleaning up in races to, i'm not sure witch ones, I don't follow close enough, but that motor is a honey.... great car, TILL RAIN FALLS, then is AWD forever... lol.. Yeah, man, you bought the wrong car if you were after performance (why I own 2 different cars ) Like everyone said, you CAN do things to it, but in the end it's still a Mini-SUV... So, it's up to you on how far you want to go and how much you will spend to get there..

[Mavrik]

hey now to defend the Vibe LOL (cough yes a suby guy defending a Vibe)I autocrossed my Vibe for a full season back in 2006. I probably would have been faster had I the experience then as I do now. However it was a fun car to drive and I did beat a subaru the whole season...

[vibedrivermatt]

Well I already have a fun car. The vibe was supposed to be the practical...but Im still interested in improving its handling.

[Sublimewind]

Nice 300, you don't see many anymore... such a shame, great cars for thier time..

[lowincash]

having independant rear suspension does make driving a lot more fun than a car with torsion beam. my old car (2000 accord coupe) has independant rear suspension and my current car (2002 maxima) and the accord was much more fun and responsive to drive than the maxipad. i swore to myself i will not get a car with torsion beam anymore lol at first i wanted the 09 corolla xrs but because it has that damn torsion beam rear suspension i had to look elsewhere...good thing i found the vibe gt which uses the same engine and thank goodness it has independant rear suspension! IRS handle bumps better than TB too.

[Sublimewind]

Now, I have to defend the torsion beam a little bit, the vibes torsion rear is very similar to that of the MkII (92') GTi rear suspension... It used similar... I had done a full suspension upgrade with that car, struts, springs, sways and strut towers braces... And that car handled really well. They were known to lift the inside rear wheel in hard cornering... I could imagine the vibe would do the same with the proper tires, wheels and suspension mods.. Yeah, the independent version would have advantages, but after you lower and stiffen the car, the differences become less and less.. If you are looking for all out performance, then yeah, go for the IRS, but if not (and be honest) does it matter that much?

[harryyiii]

Was at the Ohio meet yesterday and looked under all the new Vibes. The GT and AWD indeed have independent, and the bas Vibe has the twisted beam suspension. There is nothing inherently bad with this type of suspension. All VW Golfs, Rabbits and GTIs have had this type of suspension. I had a GTI with the twisted beam suspension and it handled great. The Vibe when I got it not so good. Replacing the factory torsion bar (which mounts inside the beam and is as stiff as a wet noodle) with the Progress bar improved handling greatly. Went from massive understeer to near neutral. Wait for someone to come out with a replacement bar. Changing the suspension will not pay dividends. The bar cost $100, replacing the suspension with new part would probably cost $1000s,

[Sublimewind]

This may be of interest, I just found this link.. http://www.energysuspensionpar...s.aspLooks like cheap easy polyurethane bushing replacements for some areas of the car... Possibly torsen beam mounts.. or control arm bushings.. Proceed at your own risk..

[vibedrivermatt]

interesting I hope someone makes an aftermarket torsion bar for the vibe...I think you would have to disable the stabili-track to get faster cornering as well. I wonder if this can be done. I wouldn't because its prevented me from wiping out in the snow a few times last winter but, I read in a car mag that the stability control is over bearing and slows even the GT vibe down through the slalom course.. like 59mph or something...Id like to see one how fast one of these lowered vibes goes through a slalom course to see if its any faster...another thought. What if I found an old vibe GT that was destroyed in a junkyard but still had its rear suspension parts intact. Think I could do a swap? edit: I was just reading instructions looks like it's possible to disable stabilitrak

[wyatt89]

Quote, originally posted by vibedrivermatt » What if I found an old vibe GT that was destroyed in a junkyard but still had its rear suspension parts intact. Think I could do a swap? No. I'm sure with enough time and money you could but it wouldn't be worth it. The old gt's have a solid rear axle. What you can do like the other said is get a stiffer swaybar for the back, get wider, sticky, low profile tires, and lower it and it'll be a whole new car in terms of handling. Face it, you bought a top heavy minivan, it's not ever going to be amazing in any aspect (besides carting people and stuff around while getting good gas mileage ) I highly doubt the new gt handles much better than the base model, irs or not.

[northvibe]

lolthe new gt does handle slightly better I hear. It has a stiffer suspension too.Its not really a minivan...but those old 2zzgt's were pretty quick. I mean if you drop the car and add some bracing it should handle pretty well.

[wyatt89]

I love my 2zz, I wish they had made more vvtl-i engines My front struts are going to go fairly soon so I cant wait to replace them and get some lowering springs :DI personally like the sx4 hatches, they are ridiculously slow though, my girlfriends mom has the sedan version. It handles pretty poorly and gets bad gas mileage for the lack of hp it's making.

[vibedrivermatt]

Alright I just kinda learned that sway-bars, roll bars, and anti roll bars are all the same thing So found out about this progress bar... but I don't get they the hotchkis one looks different...http://www.progressauto.com/pr...D/467h ... co..._Comp

[wyatt89]

They look different because the hotchis one isn't for a vibe...

[bull77]

check out neverenoughauto -- most matrix/vibe owners will go through themhttp://neverenoughauto.com/ind...d=898http://neverenoughauto.com/ind...=1529

[vibedrivermatt]

theres another one of those hotchkis front and rear sway-bay kits but, this one appears to be the correct kind...or the have the picture right. I thought most people just upgraded the rear bar...is it beneficial to do both? is that a lot harder to do?

[wyatt89]

Generally if you get a much stiffer front bar it'll make your car push more when you are on a track or autocrossing. Stiffening up the roll in the back is a much better idea. I wouldn't recommend doing the front without the back for sure. Start with the back then if you feel the need for more do the front too.

[vibedrivermatt]

well I just called Progress auto today and they haven't released a part yet for the 09 vibe. They also said they haven't test fitted their current bar to the new car, which makes me wonder if it would fit. Guess Im stuck with the stock sway bar for a while..

[vibedrivermatt]

found it!..TRD rear sway bar for the 09 matrix. I called them and asked about the part. They said they had nothing to do with pontiac..no big surprise ..I bought the part anyway...I hope this is works well. I'll let you all know it goes.

[wyatt89]

Post up some pics of the install. I believe you might be the first on the site to do this so it will probably benefit others.

[vibedrivermatt]

yeah sure may be a few days before I can do it..Im waiting for a torque wrench to come in the mail. Now Im worried that wrench isn't good enough quality. I might just call the local car guy to put it in. Hopefully this part fits because I still don't know it will.

[dragon64]

A rear anti roll bar does make a great deal of difference on the '09 with the torsion beam. I've been connected unofficially to the aftermarket industry at an engineering level for almost 20 years and recently took a contract in the product developement dept. in the motorsport division of a aftermarket accessory company. I was able to call in a few favors and had a solid 23mm rear anti roll bar fabricated for my own car. Had the guys in the plastic division of the company I was recently layoff from cast me a black urethane anti roll bar bump stop for in the center of beam to replace the OE rubber block. Had the bar painted "chassis black" so the parts and installation are so stealth had the car in for some warranty work and the dealer mechanics didn't even notice that modifications had been made. Since there are no perfomance springs for the 09 readily available yet I had to resort to deactivating some of the active coils of the rear springs to make them act at a higher spring rating even though they are still the OE springs. Most noticeable is transient response is amazing considering the Vibe is a mini soccer mom mobile. Steering more neutral although still pushes some what with too rapid steering inputs and car is more responsive to throttle inputs. With an accelerometer in the car I'm seeing a 0.21G improvement on a closed road course with the TC and SC off. Now the biggest limiting factor is the tire that came on with the car. Car will be interesting once I get it on some decent rubber and finish welding the suspension and body bracing.

[vibedrivermatt]

Yeah sure that's a good Idea. I could just paint the TRD bar black to try to make it more stealthy but, Im sorta hoping that the dealer doesn't screw me around for having a TRD part. As long as they don't link this part to any kind of failure I may experience, Im not too worried about it. I bet they wont say anything. These parts are installed onto matrix's at the dealership after all. Is a torsion bar going to cause a major drivetrain failure? nahhh.... I could always put the stock part back in if I were really worried about it but, then Id probably wanna get new fasteners. I just don't think I should trust torquing them down too many times as tight as they have to be. suspension and body bracing huh? cool.. yeah I plan to do some summer tires as my next handling upgrade when I get around to affording it.

[vibedrivermatt]

Well finally! put it in today...I haven't been driving around with it for very long but, I think there's a difference. It seems like there's less lift in the rear when I whip it into a corner. It feels like it stays more level throughout. I need to drive on it more to get a better idea of the difference but, so far so good!.. cant say the difference is huge or very noticeable though..I'm gonna do a little write up on the install. It went in really easy.

[dragon64]

To really see a difference either you would need to increase the diameter or the ARB to work with the OE springs or increase the spring rate to work with the ARB. The basics principles of FWD suspension tuning are soft ARB in the front; heavy ARB in the rear. Same goes for the springs. On my previous cars I either disconnected the front bar altogether or fabricated a spring loaded endlink to allow for compression for the first inch or so with the OE bar. In the rear I usually went from the 16-20mm OE bars to 22-25mm rear bars. My usual spring setup for the street was 275-350 lb/in in the front and 450-600lb/in in the back depending on the curb weight of the cars. On the track the rear spring could go as high as 1000lb/in. The OE springs on the 09 Vibe/ Matrix are pretty soft. Even my 23mm solid rear bar doesn't show that great of a difference. Tuning the rear springs to the ARB is what really made the difference. Without going into technical detail of calculating spring rate, the OE rear springs have 6 active coils. As a rule of thumb if you were to make the same spring with only 3 coils the spring rate doubles if all other parameters remain the same. What I had to do with my springs is make 2 1/2 coils act as one. I inserted a hard duro urethane spring dampers in between the coils effectively making the spring act a thought it had only 4 coils without changing the ride height.Now the question everybody will asking is why don't the manufactures do this or why aftermarket manufactures don't make parts like this available to the retail public? Working from the opposite point of view the simplest answer is Lawyers. It's easy to shift the blame to the driver if they can't make the turn because of understeer rather than the vehicle was to sensitive to steering inputs and caused an accident. Another problem with the 09 is the drive by wire throttle seems to have a lot of lag. I been beta testing a aftermarket throttle controller which seems to eliminate throttle lag for the most part improving power transisions in and out of a turn which also improves handling and accelleration. As a side benefit gas mileage has also improved slightly as well.

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by dragon64 »To really see a difference either you would need to increase the diameter or the ARB to work with the OE springs or increase the spring rate to work with the ARB. The basics principles of FWD suspension tuning are soft ARB in the front; heavy ARB in the rear. Same goes for the springs. On my previous cars I either disconnected the front bar altogether or fabricated a spring loaded endlink to allow for compression for the first inch or so with the OE bar. In the rear I usually went from the 16-20mm OE bars to 22-25mm rear bars. My usual spring setup for the street was 275-350 lb/in in the front and 450-600lb/in in the back depending on the curb weight of the cars. On the track the rear spring could go as high as 1000lb/in. The OE springs on the 09 Vibe/ Matrix are pretty soft. Even my 23mm solid rear bar doesn't show that great of a difference. Tuning the rear springs to the ARB is what really made the difference. Without going into technical detail of calculating spring rate, the OE rear springs have 6 active coils. As a rule of thumb if you were to make the same spring with only 3 coils the spring rate doubles if all other parameters remain the same. What I had to do with my springs is make 2 1/2 coils act as one. I inserted a hard duro urethane spring dampers in between the coils effectively making the spring act a thought it had only 4 coils without changing the ride height.Now the question everybody will asking is why don't the manufactures do this or why aftermarket manufactures don't make parts like this available to the retail public? Working from the opposite point of view the simplest answer is Lawyers. It's easy to shift the blame to the driver if they can't make the turn because of understeer rather than the vehicle was to sensitive to steering inputs and caused an accident. Another problem with the 09 is the drive by wire throttle seems to have a lot of lag. I been beta testing a aftermarket throttle controller which seems to eliminate throttle lag for the most part improving power transisions in and out of a turn which also improves handling and accelleration. As a side benefit gas mileage has also improved slightly as well. Me and you could get along really well Sir... lol... Without a doubt, you'll realize all the improvement you've made, the moment you get new tires... Now, if you could get some light wheels to drop some unsprung weight.. well, you know.. I dropped 5lbs per corner on my Subaru, buy going from the already rather lightweight stock combo (18lbs for a 17" wheel, no bad for stock..!) to my Volks... I could tell a difference the first time I took off from the driveway..

[Kincaid]

You always find out something too late because you are always learning. I didn't realize there was a difference in the suspension between the GT and the regular 2.4L. I figured I was only losing the fascia, fogs, rear diffuser and spoiler. (I did not like the GT leather/fabric seats or the wheels). I could've had the GT in black but I wanted silver or blue. So, I was a bit disappointed when I realized I missed out on an IRS.Anyway, that all said, the bone stock 2.4L handles great compared to my '97 Civic EX that has been modified with Eibach Pro-Kits, Tokico adjustable shocks and plus one tires. I'm just driving it at 5/10ths maybe, but at that speed it seems to ride smoother and corner just as hard. I suppose if it was really pushed the Civic would perform better but at this point I very happy.Now...when the lowering springs are available I will get 'em.

[Sublimewind]

You made a nice point Kincaid and didn't really know it... The car handles admirably, with a few upgrades it can handle well... BUT, and there is always a but... It's not that type of car, it was never designed for 10/10 driving... you could push it up to say 7-8/10, but after that, the body flexes out, even with a strut bar, the rear can't track well... I know Mav auto-crossed one and did well... but he can tell you(I hope), he was pushing the car hard, harder than the design should/could take.. I wouldn't be to bummed about getting the Torsen suspension.. as I stated above, it can handle well... once you start stiffening things up, you also lose some travel, so the torsen becomes less effective and the sways more.. Also, as you stiffen the shocks, you need less sway bar to achieve the same amount of benefit..

[Kincaid]

So yesterday on the way home there's a right corner that I use to guage handling on my Civic. It's a right hand turn, about 130 degrees perhaps and it sweeps up so it's banked in the opposite way (negative?) that one would like for really pushing it. I took corner a bit harder this time - if I was 5/10ths before this was maybe getting close to 7/10ths. I like to accelerate a bit as I go into the turn so that I don't short change the speed while I can't watch the speedo.So, the other day I took it at about 50 mph when before I did it closer to 40 mph. I could feel the difference. The Civic wins at that speed over the unmodified Vibe. It felt a lot looser and rolled a lot more.Can't wait for the lowering springs.

[dragon64]

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »Me and you could get along really well Sir... lol... Without a doubt, you'll realize all the improvement you've made, the moment you get new tires... Now, if you could get some light wheels to drop some unsprung weight.. well, you know.. I dropped 5lbs per corner on my Subaru, buy going from the already rather lightweight stock combo (18lbs for a 17" wheel, no bad for stock..!) to my Volks... I could tell a difference the first time I took off from the driveway.. I've been doing this for a many years. Took training courses and seminars with Koni, Eibach and seveal major tire companies over the past 20 some odd years give me a little bit of an advantage setting up a suspension.... LoL Also has my racing licence in several classes of motorsport too at one time. Did find a set of extra light wheels really cheap. Actually a freebie. A customer at a local shop had a set of 9 year old Konig Toxxin with one that way cracked. Since one new wheel is no longer available the guy just bought a new set and since they were going in the garbage anyway I asked to take them. The original white paint was a little dated and the repaired wheel had to go on a lathe anyway I gave the lip and spokes a light machine cut then had them hard anodized. Was able to remove about 4oz from each wheel getting them down to 15.8lbs. Not bad for a mass market 17" wheel. A big mistake many guys make is buy an extra light wheel but get really heavy tire. Made a few call to few friend that are tech rep for several tire manufactures and came up with a 225-45-17 combo that is significantly lighter than the OE 16" steel wheels and Goodyears. The Subaru is a great car. Raced a track only Audi S2 back in the early '80s driving AWD is a totally different animal for RWD and FWD. AWDs want to understeer even more that FWD. Got into a friends STI a few months ago and showed him to really get the car to corner hard and without scrubbing off a lot of speed you need to stay on the power all the way through and left foot brake to control the torque through the turn. Funny it basically the same techniques drift racers use today, a high HP turbo car.... and over a quarter century.... later I guess nothing is ever really new ...

[Sublimewind]

NICE...!!So you had the crack ground out, welded and then you re-machined?? DUDE.. that's awesome..!!What tire did you end up with?? I'd like to know more about which are the lighter tires on the market these days.. I'd love to shave another pound or 2 off the unsprung weight of the car..Did you dye any color into the anodize? or did you just go with a matte silver??