Pontiac's response as to why they don't offer an automatic option for the 180hp

[prismways]

Dear ....,Thank you for contacting Pontiac! The 4 speed automatic is not designed to handle the tourque of the highoutput engine. Its not heavy duty enough to handle the stresses long term and offer warrantable expectations of durability with the higher output engine.The high performance of the GT can best be felt with your hand on the 6-speed shifter slamming it into the next gear. Please visit your Pontiac dealer to test drive and experience the thrilling performance of the GT as intended, with the 6-speed----------------------------------------------------so my question is how does Toyota do it then? and what about the Pontiac's Grand Prix and Grand Am? Those are powerful engines that come with the automatic option...

[OlDood]

quote:Dear ....,Thank you for contacting Pontiac! The 4 speed automatic is not designed to handle the tourque of the highoutput engine. ...----------------------------------------------------...what about the Pontiac's Grand Prix and Grand Am? Those are powerful engines that come with the automatic option...A particularly pertinent question. A couple of years ago (at the beginning of the 1999 model year) I wanted a Grand Am GT w/manual transmission, V6 & RamAir. I was told by Pontiac sources that the manual couldn't take the load - only the auto could handle it. So which is it, Pontiac??? ???(Incidentally, we wound up taking the GrandAm GT w/auto - Wonder Woman ((OlDoodette)) allowed as how she would rather learn to drive an auto transmission - all her cars since 1965 have been 4 or 5 speed manuals -than give up the other goodies on the GA-GT. She still has it - says she's going to drive it until the kids inherit it.)[Modified by OlDood, 6:11 PM 9/12/2002]
[Modified by OlDood, 6:14 PM 9/12/2002]

[MA-VIBE-FAN]

It has been posted here before that the offical Pontiac position "was" that the auto trans shift points were designned at a lower RPM then the GT Engine power comes in at. Their testing had the base automatic out accellerating the GT Auto. Also the Vibe auto is not the same transmission offered in other GM cars, it is imported from Toyota Japan.

[NovaResource]

That's total BS about the trans being able to handle the torque and horsepower. The Matrix is available with the automatic behind the 2ZZ engine. The real truth is what MA-VIBE-FAN said. The automatic is not really designed for that type of rpm (8,200+ rpm).
[Modified by NovaResource, 2:25 PM 9/12/2002]

[Hawke]

The engine and 6-speed transmission on the Vibe GT are out of the toyota parts bin. Why couldn't they have used the same automatic transmission that the Matrix XRS uses? It handles the higher RPM's, torque and horsepower.

[yank dini]

So does this mean if the 130's go aftermarket we run the risk of wrecking the trans if we kick it up to 180 or 190???

[d_m_kolb]

I have also personally talked with Pontiac as to why they don't offer a auto with the GT and they flat out said the shift points aren't designed for the engine. The trany would shift around 6,000 or 6,500 RPM and it would never allow the engine to peak at it's highest HP around 7,400 RPM. The service person said it had nothing to do with the trany not being able to handle it. It just wont let the engine come to life.I guess you could manually drop it in first then at around 8,000 RPM shift it to 2nd and so on but that would get old fast in a auto transmission.When you think about it the 1ZZ makes 5 ft/lbs of torque less than the GT. 5 ft'bls is going to destroy a trany. Get the hell outta here. The pontiac tec figured the trany could handle at least 50% more HP without a problem. A transmission cooler which are very cheap and very effective at keeping trans temps down and a good synthetic like Amsoil will really help keep the friction as well as your temps down. Heat is the biggest enemy of a auto trany. Dirty trany fluid is the second. Nuetral dropping the trany is a sure fire way of destroy one also real fast.We have a few Matrix XRS members. Are any of you auto owners? Does the trany shift at around 7,400 RPM?

[NovaResource]

quote:The engine and 6-speed transmission on the Vibe GT are out of the toyota parts bin. Why couldn't they have used the same automatic transmission that the Matrix XRS uses?They do. The automatic in the base Vibe is the same one that's used in the Matrix XRS.

[Hawke]

quote: The trany would shift around 6,000 or 6,500 RPM and it would never allow the engine to peak at it's highest HP around 7,400 RPM. That can all be changed electronically. If it's the same auto in the XRS as in the base vibe, then there is some sort of business strategy that's involved.

[friendlyben]

why don't we just learn how to drive a manual tranny?

[NovaResource]

"We" do know how to drive a manual tranny. Driving one in city traffic is a pain in the @$$. You can go take your foot out of your mouth now.
[Modified by NovaResource, 9:59 PM 9/12/2002]

[Flip-Side]

Pontiac isnt the one to ask. U know they dont make the powertrain. And dont forget that it is not always that a company "Can't" do something, it may mean they dont "Want" to, because they are saving money.Did u know that the vibe was designed as a fleet millage car? That means that it is being produced to sell cheap and make good gas milleage to make up for GM's gas guzzlers out there. Otherwise, they get fined by the government for going over the Fleet average MPG.We need to find out why GM wont spring for the auto the Matrix uses. Unreliable and warranty nightmare, or too expensive.

[baltimore17]

I agree that the shift points can be programmed to be whatever they want. I suspect that the real reason for no automatic with the GT is that the GT's engine has a relatively narrow RPM range for peak torque and peak HP. With six speeds on the manual, you can keep the engine in the peak range. With the four speed auto, you'd be frequently in RPM ranges well off the peak.The base engine isn't nearly so peaky, so the engine will still deliver adequate acceleration even if not at the optimum RPM. Consider that torque-heavy GM sixes and V8s in the '50s and early '60s got by with the two speed Powerglide automatic. When your torque peak is is wide as Ohio, all you need is one gear to get off the line and one to do everything else.If anyone has driven the equivalent Matrix with the automatic, I'd be interested to hear if it was a dog off the line or for mid speed passing situations compared to the manual. (Academic interest: I've ordered the base automatic)

[jeremyk]

I don't agree with the argument that "driving with a manual transmission in the city is too hard"....Put down the cell phone and the cheeseburger and "just drive"! Performance oriented drivers DO NOT WANT/NEED a manual tranmission in a car. The GT is supposedly marketed toward that crowd. If you're not one, buy the base.Suck it up!(Sorry if this came across as rude...but I have a strong opinion on this one)

[d_m_kolb]

Ya that was kinda harsh but your intitled to it.. There are many reasons why someone would want a auto instead of a maunal. First if your looking for the performance and don't know how to drive a manual you'll need a auto. Anouther which is the case for me my wife hates manual and refuses to drive them. We'll I'd rather have the GT but it's not offered so I'm going to end up with that base which is fine. Then you have people that live in the city and don't wish to shift gears but wish there was more power. I could go on but a auto should have ben a option since the XRS has a optional auto trany.

[Flip-Side]

Yeah, my wife hates manual too. Makes all the difference slamin throught those gears and workin the revs. But the auto is actually one of the quickest and responsive I have ever driven, so its not so bad.

[NovaResource]

quote:I don't agree with the argument that "driving with a manual transmission in the city is too hard".... Put down the cell phone and the cheeseburger and "just drive"!Get a clue pal. Driving a manual in the city has nothing to do with "a cell phone and a cheeseburger". It has to do with heavy, stop-and-go traffic, traffic lights or stop signs every block. Come down to Philly and drive I-95, the Schuylkill Expressway (I-76) or Rooselvelt Blvd (US-1) during rush hour traffic and see what I mean.You can go take your foot out of your mouth now, too.
[Modified by NovaResource, 3:22 PM 9/16/2002]

[mu_ohio]

If you are wanting a auto I'd go with a CVT one like in the Civics since they get good mileage and still give you good performance. Just my .02cents.

[NovaResource]

I like CVTs. Weird to drive but good. I still question their reliability.

[millster]

Don't want to get too far off topic, but having never driven a car with a CVT, what is different about the way they drive. I've seen basic explanations of their operation so I assume that the engine RPMs never "drop and rise" like a conventional transmission. If you stay on the throttle the engine stays at one speed. Is this correct?

[NSimkins]

Interesting:http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovations ... ticle.html
[Modified by NSimkins, 10:07 PM 9/16/2002]

[ngilbert]

This is just my opinion, but to me it looks like Pontiac is trying to position the GT as more of the sport side of the equation, ie. base = mainstream, GT = more of an edge. And to help that appearance, GT = 6-speed only. At lot of the (now dead) sports cars of the 90's only came with a manual tranny, notable the RX-7, Supra (initially), etc. Perhaps that's the reason why they no longer exist. Heck, even Ferrari has automatics in their cars now. It's just want people want, that's all.I definately perfer manuals over automatics, that's just me. However, if you need/want an auto because of your particular situation, wouldn't that be your first concern? Then vehicle choices? You can still option out a base model and still have it look just like the GT. You can even slap on a few mods and have it perform better than a GT, and save yourself a few bucks...My 0.02 (0.013 CDN)....

[NovaResource]

quote:I assume that the engine RPMs never "drop and rise" like a conventional transmission. If you stay on the throttle the engine stays at one speed. Is this correct?Yes, for the most part. CVTs can be made to simulate gear changes but in true CVT mode the engine reaches the rpm where peak torque occurs and the trans adjusts to keep that rpm as the speed increases.I should clarify my last statement, I don't think CVT transmissions are unreliable by design, I just question their reliabality currently while the technilogy is still being developed. I can see CVTs becoming more common as reliability grows.

[millster]

Indeed it is an unusual piece of technology. Thank you all for the info.