Volt, Leaf sales lagging badly.

[Kincaid]

http://green.autoblog.com/2011...leafs/I am thinking that this is mostly a refusal over the cost of these vehicles. Or, perhaps people are smarter than I thought (though with all the hybrids running around that seems doubtful). The January to February plunge in volume may mean the early adopters (at least at the current price point) are tapped out.

[dzknmd1]

My feeling about all of these electric "hybrids" is that they are a bad expensive joke being perpetrated on the public by a bunch of misguided environmentalists.Everybody knows that electricity is free and comes from the wall, right? What about the coal that is burned to generate the electricity that is then distributed in a very inefficient manner? What about the hundreds of pounds of expensive batteries that have to be hauled around and eventually replaced at huge expense? What about the toxic waste these batteries become?$41,000 for a Volt? I wouldn't take one as a gift if I had to live with it. Sorry about the rant. I just had to get that out.

[keithvibe]

would be better if they allowed more companies to import their diesel engine models. I know people who have the diesel version of my wife's kia soul in Europe getting 50+mpg and more torque and HP.

[kostby]

The first GM electrics were a pretty dismal failure too. (Look for 'EV1' in your favorite search engine.) They not only bought them all back, they cut them up and landfilled them, as I recall.The Volt and the Leaf need to be allowed to fail. The bigger the failure, the better, IMHO.If the government would stay the heck out of energy production and vehicle propulsion system regulation for about the next 100 years, the marketplace would determine the most cost-effective options!Instead, manufacturers will spend trillions to engineer lightweight 40mpg pickup trucks and pass the cost on to consumers at $80,000 a copy, just because some bureaucrats decided that we're using too much petroleum.

[03VibeOttawa]

I think many of the target buyers are content with their current cars, and plan to replace them with plug-ins at their next purchase. Most people wanting to buy a Volt is probably too practical to replace a car they are happy with at the moment. Because of that, and the recession (no, it is not fully over) it may take a few years for sales to climb. The "electricity comes from coal" is a weak argument, because many people progressive enough to have a plug-in car have Bullfrog electricity, or something similar. If you don't know there are clean sources of electricity out there, I'm not surprised you don't think electric cars are a good idea. Sure, batteries are heavy and costly now, but the technology will improve over time. Early buyers are the best way to help get there. I'm glad there's innovation coming, and looking forward to when the prices come down.

[03VibeOttawa]

And sure, diesels can get 50+MPG., but many people who bought Volts have driven for months without burning a drop of fuel, and even turned down a free tank from the dealer so they didn't have to haul the gas around. That's way better than diesel's efficiency. ""

[joatmon]

the price keeps me from considering purchasing a Volt

[jimincalif]

The rest of us are subsidizing these things for $7500 per copy with a federal tax credit. Here in Calif the Leaf gets a state $5K tax credit.Just like ethanol and bullet trains, the government is throwing our money away on things that are not economically viable. If they were, the market would produce them.Electric cars have been waiting for battery "technology to improve" for 150 years. The first hybrid was built in 1916.http://inventors.about.com/lib...a.htm

[Sputnik]

I think we are likely buying a Leaf when they are available here. Nissan says October for Canada. It will be a commuter car for us as its only 16km round trip to work.20,000 people have reserved a Leaf in the States (http://detnews.com/article/20110208/AUT ... -preorders),And the Volt is only for sale in 7 States right now.

[ou.grizzly]

Counted three Volt vehicles two Friday's ago in a matter of 3 hrs

[epcIII]

Quote, originally posted by ou.grizzly »Counted three Volt vehicles two Friday's ago in a matter of 3 hrs Yeah, but that's probably 'cause you live in MI. I was listening to NPR the other day talk about the Volt and how it got a bad review from either Car&Driver or Consumer Reports (can't remember). They were saying that it was a bad decision to make them pay for the car (with a $5000 surcharge to boot) instead of a loaner for their review.

[jkm311]

I am excited by both vehicles. Chevy's option is more practical for MOST people, but the Leaf is awesome for those able to stay closer to home, more often. And the tech will get better. Longer ranges will be possible. My only concern is how old the fuel gets while sitting in Volt tanks for months upon months. Additives needed?Electricity comes from sources like coal, yes. However, the dip in usage at the household level is coming down more and more with new light bulbs, more efficient appliances, and solar is becoming more and more popular. Yes, gov't tax benefits fuel a lot of these purchase choices for us regular folk, but as Evan stated: Early buyers will help the prices go down. Our generation is the guinea pig, but someone has to be. Trust me, my Vibe keeps me happy fuel-efficiency-wise, but 5, 10 years from now? I look forward to what the future holds. As far as dealing with the old batteries, I'd have to think jobs will be created for facilities that will dismantle and dispose of the batteries in the coming years. Heck, they might even make it as easy as pulling up to the dealer and waiting an hour to get a fresh one that'll last 10 years.Here's to hopin'.

[Tubaryan12]

Quote, originally posted by kostby »If the government would stay the heck out of energy production and vehicle propulsion system regulation for about the next 100 years, the marketplace would determine the most cost-effective options!If there was no one to push car makers to change, they would still be banging out 302's in every sedan in the market. Now, do you really think they would have passed the savings on to us? I think not......and we'd be burning fuel at an even faster clip. Maybe I'm missing something: What is stopping foreign car makers from importing more diesel vehicles? Is there some sort of regulation, or is it the perception that Americans won't buy them? VW and Mercedes are still selling them here, why not the others? If there is some sort of regulation that stops them, why has it not stopped VW and Benz? The best and cheapest solution is right before us and the market has done nothing to feed the need. What am I missing? I seriously want to know.The days where the marketplace determined what was best are now long gone. The only thing that matters is faster growth of profits. The only way to keep up is to constantly squeeze more and more out of the same old stuff or find somewhere cheaper to make it. We all know how that turned out.

[keithvibe]

one word, GOVERNMENT!And those who lived threw the 70ties, know the bad wrap the diesel engine got here. Dirty, smokey ect... so most won't even consider one again because of this.No reason why they couldn't be used here... There are some volvo's in europe that get 70mpg...

[03VibeOttawa]

Quote, originally posted by jkm311 » My only concern is how old the fuel gets while sitting in Volt tanks for months upon months. Additives needed?I believe the Volt automatically switches to gas mode after a set period of time (a few months) to get rid of gas.I'm a big fan of diesels like some people on here (my dad has been rocking VW diesels religiously since the 80s.), and yeah for the moment they are way more cost efficient than hybrids or electrics, but I'm just hoping that changes over time and we have more practical, cheaper, cleaner car options. Like a lot of other people here, I'm glad I have an awesomely built car to last a long time while the technology improves.

[10vibe]

Consumer Reports 2011 Annual Car issue mentions that they had to pay an additional 5 grand dealer mark up for a total of $48,700 for a Volt.As I mentioned in another topic, http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=43862, Best Used Vehicles under 20K - Consumer Reports:..."The article on the Volt is not too inspiring, especially with a dealer markup of 5 grand. Paying $48,700 is ridiculous. The winter deep freeze seems to affect the all electric range to between 23-28 miles. Some of this is due to the electric heater using energy. They are saying the electric range is good to about 33 miles. The 220 volt charge takes about 5 hours (twice that time with 110volts) and the batteries are consuming about 13kw-hours per charge. Not as rosy as some earlier tests in other magazines. They say the further you go beyond the electric range, the closer your overall energy use drops toward 30mpg"...I would love to drive around in all electric for 23-33 miles, especially when my electric rates after the first 1000kw-hours, which is 5.919 cents, drops down to about 2.989 cents during the winter rates. Summer rates does jump up to 7.249 cents (mid May-mid September). 13 kwh would only cost 38.9 cents to 94.2 cents in worst case scenario. Divide that by the electric mile range and that is cheap. The problem is that is a lot of short trips to cover the 40 plus grand they are charging for that depreciating asset. Total ownership costs would seem to be nuts. I do not even want to think of repair costs on that thing. It really bothers me that the gas engine that it does have is an iron block. Cost cutting using old tech maybe? That does not inspire confidence. I could go on but....

[Old Tele man]

...when you can't afford the CAR...don't buy it....and, I didn't.

[KNINE]

If you mount a windmill to the roof of a Volt, then when you drive down the road the windmill will make electricity to power the car, and you never have to plug it in or buy gas. Simple.

[keithvibe]

Quote, originally posted by K-NINE »If you mount a windmill to the roof of a Volt, then when you drive down the road the windmill will make electricity to power the car, and you never have to plug it in or buy gas. Simple.HAHAHAHAHA that is the funniest thing I've heard in quite some time

[jimincalif]

From the Wall Street Journal, in July 2008, before the stock market crash, before the bailouts......."the Volt is GM's vehicle for making a bailout of GM politically acceptable." http://online.wsj.com/article/....html So apparently the Volt has already succeeded.

[10vibe]

Recent articles on the Volt, including discussion of Consumer Reports' take:http://www.insideline.com/chev....htmlh ... jimincalif, great article:http://online.wsj.com/article/....html

[Kincaid]

Quote, originally posted by Tubaryan12 »If there was no one to push car makers to change, they would still be banging out 302's in every sedan in the market. Now, do you really think they would have passed the savings on to us? I think not......and we'd be burning fuel at an even faster clip. Maybe I'm missing something: What is stopping foreign car makers from importing more diesel vehicles? Is there some sort of regulation, or is it the perception that Americans won't buy them? VW and Mercedes are still selling them here, why not the others? If there is some sort of regulation that stops them, why has it not stopped VW and Benz? The best and cheapest solution is right before us and the market has done nothing to feed the need. What am I missing? I seriously want to know.The days where the marketplace determined what was best are now long gone. The only thing that matters is faster growth of profits. The only way to keep up is to constantly squeeze more and more out of the same old stuff or find somewhere cheaper to make it. We all know how that turned out.Actually, it was the market forces that prompted better fuel economy. I think CAFE requirements had very little to do with the move to better fuel efficiency - during the two oil crises of the 70's people voted with their pocketbooks. Honda and Toyota had the cars America needed. Detroit has been struggling ever since. The marketplace continues to determine the cars we have (for the most part). Unfortunately, it has been SUVs for the past several years because gas was relatively cheap.As for diesel, there are several problems. One of the biggest is the difference between how U.S. refineries crack carbon to make fuel versus how Europeans do it. I don't know why they do it differently, but they do. The European way produces more diesel than gas per barrel, the U.S. way produces more gas than diesel. This keeps diesel in the U.S. at a higher cost relative to gasoline. The cost to retrofit refineries to the European way is not cost effective, and we haven't built a new refinery in years.Another factor is that diesels cost more. Not only are the engines more expensive because they have to be sturdier built to handle the added stress that is inherent in a diesel, but stricter U.S. clean air standards make it more expensive to make them pass. So, we typically see diesels only in higher end cars and expensive trucks.

[Kincaid]

Here's an interesting article I found:http://www.thecarconnection.co...ericaNotice in the test of hybrids (Fusion, Malibu, Altima, Camry) that the cost per mile is much less than the Jetta TDI.Oh, and here's the Car and Driver article that explains it all pretty thoroughly:http://www.caranddriver.com/fe...stuff

[03VibeOttawa]

My mom has a Malibu Hybrid, and my dad has a Jetta TDI. All the cliches are true - the TDI is way more efficient and cheaper on the highway, the hybrid is better for stop light to stop light city traffic. Saying one is cheaper than the other per mile in all cases is misleading, but any consumer buying one of those cars is probably careful enough to compare the costs vs. wants. PS - the diesel has way more torque, better acceleration, better passing power, and V-dub offers the manual transmission a lot of drivers want.

[Tubaryan12]

Quote, originally posted by Kincaid »Actually, it was the market forces that prompted better fuel economy. I think CAFE requirements had very little to do with the move to better fuel efficiency - during the two oil crises of the 70's people voted with their pocketbooks. Honda and Toyota had the cars America needed. Detroit has been struggling ever since. The marketplace continues to determine the cars we have (for the most part). Unfortunately, it has been SUVs for the past several years because gas was relatively cheap.I can't completely agree with this. If this were the case, then Hondas and Toyotas would have outsold Fords and Chevys during that period. I'm willing to bet they did not. They may have had the cars we needed, but we were not buying them like we are today. The American auto makers didn't even work on high mpg cars until the government gave them no choice...and they still fought it all the way. The Japanese had these cars because they needed small cars. With land being a premium, the average person there didn't want the size of car we produced. They only sold us what they had....not what they thought we needed.....lol.Even through the 80's and 90's, everyone I knew that bought Hondas and Toyotas bought them for the same reason: reliability and price, not fuel efficiency.In short, Americans don't care about fuel efficiency, they only care about gas prices. They don't care about the root of our problems, they are only concerned with the direct cost to them.

[Kincaid]

I think I can agree w/what you're saying. I would say that during the fuel crises of '73 and, I think, '76, people did buy Hondas and Toyotas for the good fuel mileage. They may not have outsold the Big Three, but I would expect that as the Japanese cars were still considered odd and unproven back then.After many bought those Japanese cars in the '70's, they began to increase market share because people then recognized their reliability and value (price).Detroit has worked on high mpg cars many times over the years - even farther back than Rambler or Corvair. Detroit does what it thinks will make money - when they thought downsizing and fuel economy was going to be the next thing - that's what they designed and built for. Sometimes they were wrong (see Dodge downsizing in 1960 that was disastrous for their sales) and often it just didn't last (Rambler once made it up to #4 overall, I think). But you're right, when gas is (relatively) cheap, Americans do not buy for fuel economy.So, of course in times of high gas prices Americans turned to where the efficient vehicles were.Now, while the green movement does care about the root of our problems (well, sometimes it is also about showing how hip and eco-snobby they can be), they often get it wrong as well.

[10vibe]

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/0...og%29Volt driving all electric around Laguna Seca. Did two or three laps, I believe. Someone should count. I like it. Current track is 2.238 miles. They say they used about 19 miles worth of charge up.

[Sputnik]

This is really cool:http://www.wired.com/autopia/2...ation/Google's installing wireless charging stations.