Blowing Sub Woofers, In my son's F-150

[Salsa Guy]

My son has a Ford F-150 , that for some reason we keep on blowing Sub woofers. He has Pioneer 800 watt Amp (Peak) the first was a 12" Audiobahn (was a 800 rms rated) then recently a Sound Storm 12" 1000 watt peak speaker. Both were dual 4 ohm voice coils wired in parallel (2 Ohm). The Amp is mounted to the frame behind the seat and grounded to the frame. in the same spot. I got some huge aZZ wire with a fuse run from the battery to power the amp. Am I overlooking something? Do I need a ground to the battery (figured I'd blow the amp first if the ground was bad)?

[A Psycho Martyr]

hmmmm....i dunno why it'd keep blowing subs sounds frustrating Maybe someone with more audio experience has seen this beforeplay the waiting game i guess

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by rmckinjr »My son has a Ford F-150 , that for some reason we keep on blowing Sub woofers. He has Pioneer 800 watt Amp (Peak) the first was a 12" Audiobahn (was a 800 rms rated) then recently a Sound Storm 12" 1000 watt peak speaker. Both were dual 4 ohm voice coils wired in parallel (2 Ohm). The Amp is mounted to the frame behind the seat and grounded to the frame. in the same spot. I got some huge aZZ wire with a fuse run from the battery to power the amp. Am I overlooking something? Do I need a ground to the battery (figured I'd blow the amp first if the ground was bad)? Hey man,There are a couple of things happening here... I've been doing this a long time, so please bear with me... A) Your sons a Bass Head... pure and simple... it's a well known condition in the younger car audio crowd.. Put a kid with some subs in a car and inevitably all the bass settings end up getting turned up, until destruction... B) I need to know more specifics, you say the Pioneer amp is 800w PEAK... peak power doesn't run things.. RMS power does.. Let's clear that right now, for you AND him.. Music is dynamic, so you get major peaks in output when things like symbols crash, or bass drums thump.. THIS is where "peak" power comes into play.. WHY manufactures even post the spec boggles me, it really has no bearing on "normal" everyday listening because most normal people don't drive with the volume cranked all the time either... You don't even approach peak power till you are at/near distortion levels... C) Settings.... What levels are everything set at? This is very important... In 15+yrs of car audio I've blown ONE sub, ONE mid-range and never a tweeter... That being said, at what level do you use for "max" on the head unit??? At what level is the GAIN on the amp? There is a lot to be said here, but I need the info first... Proper level setting ensures the BEST possible sound with the least amount of distortion... Distortion KILLS audioD) You never mention the box the subs are in, the BOX, MAKES the sub.. The sub box needs to be mated properly to the sub, in both size and type.. Internal volume of the box is very important in how they will perform.A box that is too small will make the subs fight harder than they need to, to overcome the forces the box places on it (the box provides control)A box that is too large, doesn't provide enough control and the sub tends to "fart" and/or self destruct in extreme cases.. A box that is not properly sealed (cracked joints for instance) can cause all sorts of problems, mainly emulating a box that is too large.. E) This gear you are using, it's not top shelf, and really, the subs are bottom shelf... I'm not saying that this is a "bad" thingI am saying however, that quality is quality and the lower end shouldn't be expected to last under abusive conditions... (I can almost guarantee abuse...lol)Add to this possible improper settings and you have the perfect breeding ground for smoked subs... F) Applying an extra ground to the batter is NOT A BAD IDEA AT ALL.. Do a web search for "The Big 3" (try here too)A vehicle is NOTHING without it's electrical system and the manufactures design the system with JUST enough for the car... add to it a high amp system and all of a sudden things like grounds are no longer "adequate"Anything you can do to reinforce the main electrical system, the better... Might seem simple, but did you sand away any of the paint for the ground terminal for the amp before it was bolted down? If not, it's a great idea.. There are a lot of things going on here... we can get through it... Cheers...

[Salsa Guy]

Yea I understand the RMS to Peak thing. Well the first sub is a Audiobahn which I thought was certainly was more upper than lower shelf (the SoundStorm is junk LOL). Will look over your suggestions and post additional on the AMP/BOX/Speaker. Thanks for the input!

[Salsa Guy]

OK here's what I know. It's a Pioneer GM-7200M (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-wUJ1T9ZOeD ... 7200M.html) Specs are 250 Watts RMS @ 4 ohms, 360 watts RMS @ 2 ohms. The gain is set to Normal (preout level: 2V), LPF is set to aprox 100 hz, Bass Boost Control is set to 12 dB. There's a BFC but I've never messed with it. I don't know the exact box dimensions (home made) I want to say the side top is 5" to 8" on bottom, 18" high and 24" wide. It's not ported and fits behind the seat (standard cab truck). From what I'm reading the settings my need to be adjusted but how to you set it up? I guess it's like tuning a car and hitting the sweet spot!

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by rmckinjr »OK here's what I know. It's a Pioneer GM-7200M (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-wUJ1T9ZOeD ... 7200M.html) Specs are 250 Watts RMS @ 4 ohms, 360 watts RMS @ 2 ohms. The gain is set to Normal (preout level: 2V), LPF is set to aprox 100 hz, Bass Boost Control is set to 12 dB. There's a BFC but I've never messed with it. I don't know the exact box dimensions (home made) I want to say the side top is 5" to 8" on bottom, 18" high and 24" wide. It's not ported and fits behind the seat (standard cab truck). From what I'm reading the settings my need to be adjusted but how to you set it up? I guess it's like tuning a car and hitting the sweet spot!Well Sir, just to start, here is a perfect example of the smoke that audio manufactures blow at youThat amp has on it 800w.... it carries 2x 30a fuses... Ohms law states that W=EI... (E =voltage, I =amprage) so 12x60=720w That is the ULTIMATE MAX, at the point where the fuses blow... You'll NEVER reach that point unless something is wrong.. If you look at the specs on the Crutchfeild page, it says PEAK output of 500w @4ohm, and doesn't GIVE a PEAK for 2ohm... It says it will do 250wrms @4ohm and 360wrms @2ohm... Now settings... 1) The head unit.. is it a knob or button volume? does it have a number for volume level?? If so, what is the MAX that this is used at? 2) The amp, is the "gain" setting a knob or a switch? if it's a knob, how far from ZERO would you say it is? 3) we'll get to bass boost in a few... but "BFC" is Bass Frequency Control and that should allow you to pick a frequency to boost.. 4) again on the sub box... It MAKES the sub... you can take the best sub in the world and put it in a miss-matched box and it will sound like garbage and can have terrible power handling... Inversely, you can put a "soundstorm" in a properly designed (sized really, it more about internal volume) and have it sound AMAZING... If you can/would, do you have a cardboard box lying around that would be ~12"x12"x12" (1 cubic foot) and some packing peanuts? You can remove the sub, fill the box with packing peanuts and fill the sub box.. each box you dump is 1cf.. it's a SUPER easy way of finding volume... You can also measure the outside of the box, subtract stock thickness, get cubic inches and do the math.. 1 Cubic Foot = 1728 Cubic Inches The problem with something like SoundStorm (which is a rip from SoundStream, one of the greatest audio companies) is that they offer very little in terms of speaker specs.. I mean, if they have a "recommended" enclosure size noted somewhere, it's useful.. NOW: level setting... Proper level setting is both scientific and subjective.. I like to direct people to download 2 different test tones... http://homerecording.about.com...s.htmYou want 60hz 1000hzBurn the tones to a disc (or have the son do it, whichever)Now, in the car, play the tones on repeat.. (unplug the RCA's from the amp first)Start with the 1000hz tone.. play the tone and turn the HU up untill you hear a DISTINCT change in output... turn it down and try again... Once you find this point where the tone changes back off a notch and NOTE that point... That is now your HU MAX.. This is the point in which the HU begins to distort.. NOTE: if you have mids/tweeters amped, there is more to this, I don't think they are amped, so this is good for now)Now that you have your HU max, move to the amp... FIRST OFF turn the bass boost to zero, gain to zero everything to zero.. (plug the RCA cables back in)Now, play the 60hz tone (bass and also what comes out of a wall socket) at the head unit MAX you just found... Now, move to the amp, turn the GAIN up, until you hear a distinct change in sound, back off, try again... FIND THAT SWEET SPOT.. Find the spot and back off slightly.. This should be your amps MAX gain before distortion... Ok from here, you need to play some music and see how things sound... This is a general set-up guideline, BUT, music is dynamic, it's not a single tone... The single tone just allows you to identify distortion easier, because it's not masked in music.. BASS BOOST... Let's talk... Sound is interesting, power to output is an inverse relationship.. The human ear can only notice increases in volume in 3db increments.. To increase output of a speaker system by 3db roughly requires DOUBLE the power.. This is why most speakers are rated at 1w at 1 meter.. and usually produce 85-95db on 1 WATT... But at 50w they same speaker may only produce 110db... at 100w.. 113db... SO, with the bass booost set too 12db... you are asking that amp to QUADRUPLE it's power into whatever frequencies the BFC is set to.. This is NOT good on an amp that doesn't have much for output to begin with... Used sparingly.. Whew.. chew on that for a few.. get back to me... BTW, we DO have an audio section.. I do my best work there..

[Salsa Guy]

LOL yes I had posted in the Audio section but the mod moved it to here. I think he should move it back because it's not really car specific. For starters I'm a Tech (Industrial Control systems), so I know ohms law....LOL. 1) HU Volume: Knob MAX is 50 (I think)2) Amp Gain: Knob (need to use a tweaker to adjust) about 3/4 of the way up (normal)3) BFC: I'll need to see if it can be accessed with out removing the AMPWill be checking over the Box to get the exact dimensions. What about the LPF control? How does that relate to the BFC?

[ou.grizzly]

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »BTW, we DO have an audio section.. I do my best work there.. Non Vibe/Matrix Vehicle, therefore it belongs in "The Others"

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by ou.grizzly »Non Vibe/Matrix Vehicle, therefore it belongs in "The Others"Woops, I see... my bad.. lol..

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by rmckinjr »LOL yes I had posted in the Audio section but the mod moved it to here. I think he should move it back because it's not really car specific. For starters I'm a Tech (Industrial Control systems), so I know ohms law....LOL. 1) HU Volume: Knob MAX is 50 (I think)2) Amp Gain: Knob (need to use a tweaker to adjust) about 3/4 of the way up (normal)3) BFC: I'll need to see if it can be accessed with out removing the AMPWill be checking over the Box to get the exact dimensions. What about the LPF control? How does that relate to the BFC? Man, I wish I had known, you knew a thing or 3, before I typed all that out... lol.. Ok, cool, things just got a little easier... NICE... So, knowing what you know about electronics, have you ever herd of "Lightening Watts"? That's when an amp claims a certain wattage, but will NEVER hope to produce said wattage UNLESS STRUCK BY LIGHTENING...!!!This is/was the point I was making with the fuse rating and Ohms Law.. if you understand, then you follow.. yes.. 1) HU knob, does it have a numeric display? and if it goes up to 50 MAX, what is it "normally" played at? (doesn't matter if you follow the set-up really)2) Ok, so gain is a pot, not a switch or something.. and about 3/4 of the way up.. Place a tic mark on the amp where it's at and then, follow through the set-up guide I laid out and see where it ends up?? Might be an interesting experiment..3) the LPF is VERY important, but for the sake of what we are doing now, it doesn't matter.. I personally like my subs crossed a little lower, like 70-80hz, but a lot depends on a lot of things for this.. The higher the frequency the more the sub has to work to produce the range.. Subs have the narrowest bandwidth, but the most difficult frequencies to try and reproduce... It requires a lot of power to try and control the large heavy cone needed to produce bass... THIS is where the BOX comes into play.. The BOX is the key.. The interaction of the box on the speaker creates it's overall control profile.. or sound.. A simple sealed box is the easiest to used as an example... As the speaker moves through it's frequency range and it's "throw" it's creating pressure every time the speaker moves inward of "rest"... it's also creating a vacuum, every time it moves outward past "rest"A smaller than "recommended" box will limit the sub, make it difficult to hit the really low notes (long excursion) and be generally "over damped".. A LARGER than recommended box will not have proper control over the cone of the speaker, resulting in over-excursion (typically sounds like speaker farting, really), bloated sound, lack of detail, power handling is lost.. ect.. Small boxes (within a certain range) are considered "tight", accurate sounding.. but pay in less low end extension.. Large boxes, again within range, are considered "lose", muddy... but also HIT harder and go LOWER... BCF is likely right next to the "boost" knob... they go hand-n-hand..

[Salsa Guy]

The Box size is less than 1 cubic ft (.80,). One of the things we did to get the new speaker to fit was had 3/4 "spacer" to it (It was the old rubber ring for the Audiobahn) other wise the speaker would be to deep. So back to the drawing board what's a good cheap shallow mount sub woofer that will handle that amp? From what I've learn the settings were way to aggressive which caused distortion that = fail!

[Sublimewind]

That sounds like a small box for a 12" sub, but then again, I don't know 100% exactly what you've got there... Most sub manufactures post Thiel small parameters of the subs, from these you can get an exact volume for the box... In lew of that, most offer suggested box sizes for the subs.. The rubber ring thing, is there a chance it could have been leaking.. ? I doubt it, but just askin.. What sort of mounting depth do you have? I have a post on another forum of mine that offers a wide range of shallow mounts out there... http://forums.nasioc.com/forum...21144I'm not so sure about you being too aggressive with the settings, but there is a whole list of things that play TOGETHER in concert to make it work as wholeYou know this VERY well, it's called a "system"...