Engine Stalls

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Sat May 18, 2002 5:11 am

Has anyone had any instances where the engine stalled/cut-out? I have had three instances... I think. Twice my wife had it stall on her and I assumed she just did the basic stop sign stall and didn't have the clutch in. Well, I had it cut out as I was turning into a parking lot. It just shut down and I had to pop the clutch to get it started again.I figure I will take it in to get it checked out. I suspect it may be a bad O2 sensor. I was curious if anyone had had this happen.Dan
[Modified by dlmetzger, 4:11 PM 5/18/2002]

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Mon May 27, 2002 7:57 pm

I thought I would give an update just in case someone else experiences this problem. I took the car in May 21, 2002 to get service to investigate the problem. The were unable to get any codes to come up and couldn't reproduce the engine stall. I picked up the car on May 22, 2002 not too happy, knowing that it was going stall again in the future.On May 23, it stalled 7-10 times in a four mile distance. I took it back to the service department. They again weren't able to pick up any error codes but were able to reproduce the engine stall. As of Friday, May 24, they had no idea what was wrong and had called Pontiac Technical Assistance.I sure hope this is just an isolated problem.Dan

d_m_kolb · Post by **d_m_kolb** » Mon May 27, 2002 10:23 pm

If it's stalling one of three things is happening. It's either not getting enough fuel, not getting enough air, or not getting enough spark.I would have checked the simple things first like a faulty fuel filter and fuel pump. Nothing is every that easy so then start checking the voltage coming out of the coils, look for faulty wires. If that wasn't it, it could be anything. I'm surprised your check engine light didn't go off and they couldn't even find a code or a code that was pending meaning the computer senses a problem but can't pen point the problem yet it will have a code pending but wont set the check engine light off until it's figures it out.Sorry I'm not being much help. I hope the dealership can sort it out.

emod50h51h · Post by **emod50h51h** » Mon May 27, 2002 11:54 pm

Your fuel could be a possible culprit, fuel refineries blend fuel for different seasons, winter, spring, fall summer. Also for different geographical locations say Florida vs. Montanna. A fuel with the incorrect reid vapor will cause stalls. Sometimes when you see gas that is cheaper than usual, the companies are trying to move excess stock of gas, be it a transitional time ina season or from area. Are you using the correct octain. don't fall into the idea higher is better because the computer calibrations are based on what the car was designed for and the difference in the flash point of the fuel can upset the process. If this all started sudenly, try to run out the tank, Fill the tank with the correct octane fuel from a station that has high volume sales (not one that may have old gas in their tank) and give it about 50 miles to get reaquainted with the new gas and see what happens. Is your car a GT?

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Tue May 28, 2002 5:38 am

Thanks for the input. It is a GT and I have been using super (~92 octane). I would not expect it to be the gas since it has happened on two different tank fills from two different areas of town. The first two times it occured I was on my original tank from the dealer. I checked with the service department today and they are still stumped. Pontiac Technical Assistance was no help. I guess the next step will be to contact the main Tech Center in Warren.

MA-VIBE-FAN · Post by **MA-VIBE-FAN** » Tue May 28, 2002 8:56 pm

This maybe an off beat idea. Might you try a quick call to your local Toyota dealer? They may beable to give you an idea the Pontiac Dealer can look at. They have used the engine for a couple years I believe and in higher volumes then the Vibe. Keep us posted.

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Wed May 29, 2002 9:24 am

That isn't an off beat idea at all. I metioned it to them last week. I basically got a "Duh, okay". So much for ASE certified.They said they are still working on it as of late this afternoon (May 29). Supposedly, they have spoken with the Warren Tech Center and are "Trying some things". The elapsed time is now 7 days in the shop, 23 more and I can declare lemon law.

mkl116 · Post by **mkl116** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 3:41 am

Any progress?

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 6:29 am

Yes and no.I got my car back a week or so ago. According to the service department, GM told them to adjust the idle speed. Well they increased it about 50% which I wasn't too happy about but I took a wait and see approach.As of Friday (6/7/02) the check engine light came on, so I took it in to the service department today. I told them to check the cause of the light. I also told them that I wanted the idle reset to factory settings, regardless of what the warning light indicated. I told them just increasing the idle wasn't "fixing" the problem, just covering it up. There response was "Well that is what GM told us to do." I informed them that this wasn't a GM engine it was Toyota/Yamaha and they (GM) needed to contact Toyota and get more involved.I did talk with another dealership in the area that is a Pontiac/GMC/Toyota so if my present dealership doesn't provide me with satisfaction I will go to them. I will also be calling Pontiac directly and get them involved myself.Sorry to ramble so much. I an just sick of this thing taking up all my time.

d_m_kolb · Post by **d_m_kolb** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:45 am

I would start taking it to the Pontiac GMC Toyota dealership from now on. It wont cost you anything to switch dealerships. Sounds like it'll help you out in the long run anyway.Some dealerships I often wonder who trained their mechanics because half the time they don't know sh**! Then you get the ones that screw with your car just so you'll have to bring it back in underwarrenty so the manufacturer will pay them. Hope this isn't the case with you.

mkl116 · Post by **mkl116** » Tue Jun 18, 2002 11:48 pm

Any more progress?

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:58 am

Not much positive progress.I took the vehicle into the other dealership last Thursday (6/13/02). They were unable to reproduce the problem on Friday so I went to pick it up. It stalled again on Saturday (6/15/02). Since that is three times in for service for the same problem, I have sent a certified letter to Pontiac giving them the required "last opportunity to fix the problem" per Michigan Lemon Law. Pontiac customer support has been utterly useless. All they do is call the dealerships and ask why it isn't fixed.I suspect I will be taking GM to arbitration since I don't think they are going to just give me a refund or new vehicle. Although they should.Dan

d_m_kolb · Post by **d_m_kolb** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:24 am

Wow that really sucks. If they can't get the vehicle to do the same thing it's doing to you is there something your doing differently? When does it stall? Is it after the engine is at operating temp? At a certain RPM? When you let out the clutch and RPMs fall when shifting gears.I'm sure you have done this but try to figure out right when it's happening. Make sure they are doing the samething. It could be so many things. Maybe a coil is bad and stops firing after awhile. Could be the fuel pump just stops. The ECM might be bad. You probably wont be able to find a trouble code for this. I could go on but there is no point. Hope this gets fixed for you.

emod50h51h · Post by **emod50h51h** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 11:27 am

We have (as most all dealers should have ) a little black box, much like a airplane flight recorder. This could be installed on your car and you can press a button to record a stream of data (4 different times). The only problem is that I'm not sure if the software supports a Vibe yet. I will check tomorrow to see. If we could get a snapshot I would like to see the data, but that may be stepping on some toes. While this data may or may not give a clue to whats wrong,but it may help verify your concern.

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 8:04 pm

At the second dealership I went to, they were using the little black box but weren't able to reproduce the failure, thus no snapshot. The first dealership was able to reproduce the failure once, but I doubt they were using the box. I am betting it was a tech just driving around and it happened. I even asked the second dealership if I could use the box and take a snapshot when it failed, but they wouldn't let me do it.I realize that the cause can be one of a thousand different things. It can't be the way I am driving though, since it has also occurred to my wife and the service tech. The dealerships have a hard time reproducing it because it is very intermittent. The last time it stalled was Saturday (6/15/02). So unless they put a tech in my car for a week or so, the odds are thet they won't find it, especially when they just take it out once for a 30 minute drive.Pontiac "Customer Support" was supposed to check back with me on Tuesday (6/18/02) but I haven't heard from them.I am just getting frustrated because I look at this as a real safety concern. If the vehicle decides to stall during a turn onto a side street or parking lot (it has done this before) I could conceivably plow right into somebody. Just not acceptable.Thanks for the advice though.Dan
[Modified by dlmetzger, 7:05 AM 6/20/2002]

emod50h51h · Post by **emod50h51h** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 9:29 pm

I checked this morning and the VDR doesn't support any 2003 models yet. Probaly they where using a scan tool (Tech II). If I hear or see anything I'll let you know.

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 12:55 am

Just thought I would give an update on this situation for anyone who is interested. After five trips to the service department at two seperate dealerships they have been unable to fix this problem. I recently almost wrecked the car because it went dead stick in a turn when it stalled thus I lost control for a second or two. It is a dangerous situation.Pontiac Customer Service has been no help at all, they just tell me to take it in to the service department.I truly hope this is an isolated instance but I would urge others who have not received their car yet or are thinking about a Vibe (GT) to really think about their purchase. I would hate to hear about others having to go through what I have had to.I am not trying to slam the car. I really like mine but this stalling problem is not acceptable and Pontiac seems to think it is. No customer focus.

d_m_kolb · Post by **d_m_kolb** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:20 am

You should use the lemon law to get another vibe! There are some phone numbers in this info to call. http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=101

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:43 pm

I wish it was that easy but it isn't. I have contacted a lawyer and am looking into lemon law relief. I also posted this note over at MatrixVibe.net and there are a couple of people with Matrix XRS's that have had the same problem so it isn't necessarily isolated.So all Vibe GT/ Matrix XRS owners, and perspective owners, should be aware of this.

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 8:17 pm

It is turning out that I am not the only one. http://www.matrixvibe.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=450
[Modified by dlmetzger, 7:17 AM 7/18/2002]

vibb · Post by **vibb** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 12:15 pm

Since your stalling only occurs when you are pushing in the clutch pedal, I wonder if somehow the clutch start switch is tripping up the ECM into shutting off the fuel?

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:50 pm

It very well may be related to that. I have been talking with one of the Vibe program managers and he is going to get someone to take a look at that.

BanditWS6 · Post by **BanditWS6** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 11:19 pm

dlmetzger, if I may ask, which Pontiac dealers in the Detroit area have you taken your car to? I used to live in the area and frequented a variety of dealers...always got the best service from Bob Jeannotte Pontiac. Red Holman in Westland has a fantastic sales department but their service staff, IMHO, is clueless. I went in there one time for an oil change and the dude slammed my hood shut with the oil fill cap sitting on top of the engine block. The cap punched into the hood (making a huge impression on the outside) and got stuck there. I made them fix and repaint the hood for free, and they decided to fire the responsible party. Still, needless to say, I never went there again.Good luck with that pesky stalling problem. I know I would be livid if my brand new car treated me that way. (I knew a guy once who bought a brand new Formula WS6, and at 500 miles one of the injectors stuck open and destroyed the engine.) Sounds like you should be a candidate for lemon law pretty soon if you aren't already.

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 11:45 pm

BanditWS6,Funny you should mention those two dealerships. I have been to both Bob Jeanotte and Red Holman. I found Bob Jeanotte to be pretty clueless about this problem, although they did spend the time and were able to reproduce the problem once. Although they couldn't fix it. Red Holman just drove the car around the block a few times and said "okay". This stall problem ocurrs about 0.5% of the time. Statistically, you just can't find an intermittent problem that way.I do meet the lemon law requirement here in Michigan but since I am a GM employee and bought the vehicle with my GM discount, my legal options may be limited. I am looking into that.Truely, I am just wanting my car fixed so if the Program Manager for the Vibe can help, great. I also called Pontiac Customer Support last night (for the 4th time) and got a new representative to take over the case. The previous one was not doing their job and kept blowing me off.
[Modified by dlmetzger, 10:46 AM 7/19/2002]

vibb · Post by **vibb** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:52 pm

Say dlmetzger, it's been a while since you've posted anything on your stalling problem.. Has it been cured?

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:40 pm

vibb,Thanks for asking but I am sorry to say, no it hasn't been fixed.Pontiac Customer Service left me swinging in the wind. They informed me that GM/Pontiac's position was that I needed to continue to "work" with the service departments to get the vehicle fixed. I informed them that was unacceptable since the service departments won't take the time to really test the vehicle. They are closing the file as "unsatisfied" and forwarding me info on "binding" arbitration.I have contacted an attorney and started a lemon law suit. This may not work out since I am a GM employee. I am just hoping I can get them to buy back the car.

vibb · Post by **vibb** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:48 pm

Re: quote: They are closing the file as "unsatisfied" and forwarding me info on "binding" arbitration.... I am just hoping I can get them to buy back the car.I'm sorry that you have hit a snag. Before pursuing 'binding arbitration', have you considered the Better Business Bureau dispute resolution program? It is free of charge, and a hearing can happen within 40 days, and is described on page 8-3 of the Owner's manual, with telephone number 1 800 955 5100.In the meantime, I would suggest talking with the actual Owner (not sales manager) of the dealership where you bought the car to see if they will buy back your car or exchange it for another one. It's both the manufacturer and the dealer's reputations on the line, and a brand new car that stalls without cause is unacceptable.If the dealer ever hopes to sell another car to you again, they should be on your side in any case. I'd be willing to bet that the dealership owner has not even been told of your problems yet. In dealing with my share of warranty issues, I know the best thing to do is to:(1) Keep track of everything you have done to try to get your car fixed.(2) Make use of the (free) resources that are listed in the owner's manual.(3) Make sure you are talking to people with the authority to do something for you. Forget about the people who just put you off or pass the buck.(4) Be clear in communicating the end result you want.(5) Pursue nothing less than complete satisfaction.Good luck, and keep us posted..

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:22 am

Actually, the 'binding aribitration' I mentioned is the same as the BBB dispute resolution program. Since I used the GM discount, I am not entitled to the 'non-binding' form of the process.

Lori19 · Post by **Lori19** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 10:29 am

Hey Dan, what's been going on lately? Any luck yet?

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:37 pm

Lori19,No new news as of the last week or so. I am still waiting on my lemon case. I have seen over at matrixvibe.net that this same problem is occuring in a couple of Matrix XRS cars. Appears though they are getting better service than I did. Thanks for asking.

Lori19 · Post by **Lori19** » Sun Aug 11, 2002 12:11 am

Is bringing your Vibe to a Toyota dealer to be looked at an option?

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Sun Aug 11, 2002 7:57 pm

Well, I sort of did that at the second dealership I visited. It was a Pontiac/GMC/Toyota dealership. Red Holman to be exact. They are the ones I left it with for two weeks while I went on vacation and only put 16 miles on it to try and "reproduce" the stalling.But as far as strict "warranty work" I can only go to a Pontiac Dealership.If I get stuck with the car I will probably go to a private garage and see what they can do for me. For the tune of $35+/hour. I just hope I don't get stuck with it.

DVDvibe · Post by **DVDvibe** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:34 am

So how did things go, did they buy your car back or what?

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:36 am

They made an offer to my attorney and I accepted. It hasn't been bought back yet but the wheels are in motion.

AWDBLACKVIBE · Post by **AWDBLACKVIBE** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:34 am

can you tell us what the offer was?

Lori19 · Post by **Lori19** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 12:27 am

Would you consider another Vibe or are you done with them?

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 5:45 am

As for the offer, they are paying off the car. Sort of. I am still having to pay a little, but I am out of it.As for considering another vibe. No, I won't be considering them. There are too many instances of this happening with the Matrix XRS and Toyota doesn't know how to fix it either.

vibb · Post by **vibb** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 12:13 pm

I'm glad that things (sort of) worked out for you.. Although I had a different unresolved warranty issue (clanking and driveline vibration) than you, I can appreciate all the the hassles you went through. I will be posting the final details of my situation in a few days.Tom

dlmetzger · Post by **dlmetzger** » Thu Sep 05, 2002 7:07 pm

Last Note:My car from hell is now in the possesion of GM and I am rid of it. Thanks to all that tried to help with my problems. I wish you all luckwith your cars.I am outta here.

TwIsTeD_ViBe · Post by **TwIsTeD_ViBe** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 10:42 am

Woah great story... sorry u didnt have luck with the vibe... hope that doesnt happen to any of us vibe owners!!

lorszulak · Post by **lorszulak** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:43 am

Damn, sorry to bring up a old post. But I have 192k on my 04 Vibe GT and it is starting to do the same exact thing....