Dark transmission oil (with photo)

djkeev · Post by **djkeev** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:13 pm

OK, I'm not new to cars or their repair and troubles. I was in auto service for many years as a shop mechanic and also management. I'm well aware of automatic transmissions and their level of fragility and being prone to burning when mistreated.I don't tow anythingI don't drive cityI don't push the car with jack rabbit stops and screeching stopsI live in fairly flat terrainNo overheating has ever taken placeNo extreme outside temperatures. 90's in the summer, teens in the winter.That being said, 2007 Vibe 1.8 auto trans, at 54000 miles on a car I purchased new with less than 100 miles on it, my auto trans oil was black and smells slightly burnt.I went ahead and dropped the pan, pulled the filter and cleaned it all up. The entire transmission is coated with a thin film of black gunk. There was not excessive wear obvious in the pan, what I'd call a normal amount of metal on the bottom of the pan.My question is why? Why so early on a trans treated so gently? Why all the black gook on everything.Is this oil not a detergent oil? (toyota Type IV) or is it a detergent oil that soaked up all the contaminants that it could and needs to be changed at a much earlier mileage and be part of the normal service routine?I am running the car a few thousand miles and at the next engine oil change will also change the trans oil yet again. It only takes 4.3 qts when you pull the filter so it isn't excessive. The entire trans takes 9 qts. I figure mathematically after 3 changes 90+% of the oil should have been replaced. I figure after that I'll change the basic trans oil via the plug which only drains about 3.7 qts every 10,000 miles and see how things are a few months down the road but before my magic 100,000 mark.Let me interject that I am NOT a fan of the trans flush and am leery of the trans oil exchange machine. I also don't want to dump $100+ dollars on an oil change. I HATE to have others service my cars. They somehow seem to screw something up, no matter where it is done or who does it.Why the boast of confidence on the dip stick saying you don't need to change this trans oil, the owners manual says do change it at 60,000 for harsh driving conditions. My conditions are NOT harsh.Bottom line, is the trans crap?Is the oil toyota uses crap?Is my transmission wasted at 54,000 miles?I HATE going to dealerships, I purchased the 100,000 mile warranty so I have time to make a decision.Pictures of the new oil and the old oil (I shook the bottle so the color would show)ThanksDavePS I'd suggest any of you with the auto trans start checking and then changing the trans oil on a regular basis (20,000 miles or so) to head off the black oil and black internal build up I experienced.

Attached files

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:10 pm

why? because its a auto trans. I changed my tranny oil at 50k and it was the same. After 5k miles I bet its burnt and fairly dark. Just do the drain/fill on the auto trans every so often, its only like 3qt's but it should keep the fluid a little nicer.

lovemyraffe · Post by **lovemyraffe** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:57 pm

The Toyota type IV tranny fluid is just fine. The black gunk in the tranny pan is normal. All auto-transmissions will develop some kind of black gunk over time. It is why people need to get their transmissions serviced. I first serviced mine at 70,000 miles and had similar things. It is perfectly normal. You don't have anything to worry about. I don't see much of a reason to change the fluid every 10,000. I'm not much of a fan of a transmission "flush" either. My family owned a transmission shop locally and we refused to do a "flush" but just serviced the transmissions.

Whelan · Post by **Whelan** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:27 am

Had mine done between 60-70k. I'll do it again at about 120k.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:48 am

I concur with lovemyraffe, I kept all the fluid the toyota stuff so nothing got mixed and nastier. I think it was like 7-8 bucks a quart at the yota dealer.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:31 am

I changed my trans fluid at 12k and it was just as black as yours.

djkeev · Post by **djkeev** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:10 am

Quote, originally posted by keithvibe »I changed my trans fluid at 12k and it was just as black as yours.Good information but what I'm really looking for an answer to is the question of WHY it goes so dark so quickly. What is going on in the trans that is causing the oil to break down / turn dark at a reasonably young mileage.Dave

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:07 pm

Its a auto transmission and they get really hot. Auto's may be nice and easy but they are harder on their parts than a manual. Theres no way to avoid this, its all normal.

djkeev · Post by **djkeev** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:59 pm

Quote, originally posted by northvibe »Its a auto transmission and they get really hot. Auto's may be nice and easy but they are harder on their parts than a manual. Theres no way to avoid this, its all normal.I agree totally with your statement about the rough life an auto lives (this is actually my first auto in a LONG time at my wife's request). Now the question arises, at what point does this dark trans oil become less able to lubricate the vital parts of the transmission? Is its life span way beyond looking dirty? If it is still "good" oil while looking black why does it allow the dark "sludge" that coats the interior of the trans to build up?Common knowledge (well the common knowledge I was taught at least) about engine oils, or all oils for that matter is that Once an oil picks up enough contaminants to severely discolor it should be changed, screw the mileage or time in service.If most of us are experiencing this dark "worn" oil way before 60,000 miles (which is the recommended change point for severe driving) Why are Toyota and Pontiac risking transmission damage? Is it Simply for some arbitrary established "low maintenance" goal they or the government made up??I now regret not changing back at about 30,000 while it was still "clean" on the dipstick.I'd recommend to anyone to change the trans oil early, if you haven't already, based on what I've found in my transmission.Dave

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:26 pm

I don't know if they do it for transmission's or not but http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ does oil analysis check with them and send a sample of the auto trans fluid and see if it was over due or if it still held the properties needed to properly operate in the case.Edit: they do offer the service.

djkeev · Post by **djkeev** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:37 pm

Quote, originally posted by keithvibe »I don't know if they do it for transmission's or not but http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ does oil analysis check with them and send a sample of the auto trans fluid and see if it was over due or if it still held the properties needed to properly operate in the case.Edit: they do offer the service.In the interest of knowledge, I'm going to spend the $22.50 and send them a sample of the removed oil to see what its condition really is and if it still has the abilities to lubricate a transmission properly. It will take several weeks to get the sample kit and then the results. I'll keep you posted when the results come in. It could be very interesting and help fellow members decide upon a proper oil change point as opposed to the "official" recommendations.Dave

lovemyraffe · Post by **lovemyraffe** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:06 am

Quote, originally posted by djkeev »In the interest of knowledge, I'm going to spend the $22.50 and send them a sample of the removed oil to see what its condition really is and if it still has the abilities to lubricate a transmission properly. It will take several weeks to get the sample kit and then the results. I'll keep you posted when the results come in. It could be very interesting and help fellow members decide upon a proper oil change point as opposed to the "official" recommendations.DavePlease keep us posted. I am very interested in finding out what the conclusion is. From my experience, many automatic transmissions do the same thing to the fluid. It usually does not take very many miles to create the sludge that accumulates in the tranny pan.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:51 am

well it is synthetic so it should last..I dont think it should last as long as the manual says..Thats why I do the drain fill ever 50k on the auto trans...which reminds me, I need to do my escape....

zachcole90 · Post by **zachcole90** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:39 am

dirty tanny fluid is due to mild deterioration from the material the clutch pack in the transmission are made of. all it is, is heat and wear and the use of improper tranny fluid or the improper fluid level can cause high friction and temperatures that burn the fluid making it black or breaking up clutch packs and then they must be replaced. soooo take it easy check tranny fluid level and use proper fluid for your model

lovemyraffe · Post by **lovemyraffe** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:59 pm

Quote, originally posted by zachcole90 »dirty tanny fluid is due to mild deterioration from the material the clutch pack in the transmission are made of. all it is, is heat and wear and the use of improper tranny fluid or the improper fluid level can cause high friction and temperatures that burn the fluid making it black or breaking up clutch packs and then they must be replaced. soooo take it easy check tranny fluid level and use proper fluid for your modelAt our transmission shop, we ALWAYS used the proper fluid and ALWAYS kept the fluid level at a proper level. The fluid will deteriorate over time. It always will.

djkeev · Post by **djkeev** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:53 am

Thanks for the info, I'm not one to go mixing oils and playing amateur chemist when it comes to such an important and expense item like a transmission. I did purchase the Toyota T IV from the Toyota dealership when I changed my oil. I purchased a case so I want to change it fairly frequently twice more and then plan on doing it every 30,000 or when I notice a discoloration. I understand the heat and the friction in an auto trans. I've just never seen such nasty oil in a trans treated so gently at such a "low" mileage. Maybe the factory trans oil cooler isn't good enough and an upgrade should be considered?Dave

ou.grizzly · Post by **ou.grizzly** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:55 am

Eh...I have to get my coolant and trans fluid changes somewhere here in the near future.Not looking forward to the process...

rob454 · Post by **rob454** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:05 pm

Well, you'll be changing it every 3k with your oil if your going by discoloration. As a former 7 year Chrysler owner of the infamous A604 Transmission, all transmissions tarnish fluids in a different way. Toyota does not use a red dye in their transmission fluids which holds the red color. Every toyota that I have serviced, the transmission fluid color was always a dark tan/black because the normal wear and tear tarnishes the pink color of the oil. Its similar to your engine, after 2000 miles, your oil is looking pretty dark but it is still just as good as when you first poured it in. Thats was good that you cleaned out the gunk that passed the screen on the tranny pan. Just change the fluid by releasing the plug every 15-20k until you hit 100k, then drop the pan again and clean that out. You should be good to go

Dark transmission oil (with photo)

Dark transmission oil (with photo)

Re: (northvibe)

Re: (lovemyraffe)

Re: Dark transmission oil (djkeev)

Re: Dark transmission oil (keithvibe)

Re: (northvibe)

Re: (djkeev)

Re: (keithvibe)

Re: (djkeev)

Re: (lovemyraffe)

Re: (zachcole90)

Re: (djkeev)