Front Frame Brace (Teaser)

[moonstonemike]

Anyone interested in seeing some pictures of a Front Frame Brace I made for the Vibe?

[BlueCrush]

Quote, originally posted by moonstonemike »Anyone interested in seeing some pictures of a Front Frame Brace I made for the Vibe? LOL! What do you think?

[moonstonemike]

Ok Today you get some pictures of the mock up. I used some 3/4" re-bar that I had laying around the house.Tomorrow I will post a couple more pictures of the first "prototype" test brace. There are already a couple minor changes I need to make. Enjoy

[moonstonemike]

OK I don't know if I will get time to go on the computer tommorow so I will post those pixs now.The material is oval tubing 3/4"X about 1-1/4" ,1/16" wall thickness

[scherry2]

and its for??

[djkeev]

Why ?????Maybe so you lose a few inches or ground clearance and can scrape bottom frequently???

[moonstonemike]

I've always added something like this to all the cars i've had. It stiffens up the frame but also has been a life saver on times when I've bottomed. I may have scraped the brace, but another person I was with lost his oil pan. I looked under the vibe and after checking out pictures of the one installed on a voltz owners car, noticed that the "Frame" sections is in a I shape which may tend to have alot of flex, so I figured I would try it out to see if it would stiffin it up. In total I lose 3/4" ground clearance. Not a big deal for how high the vibe rides. After this I may do a 4 point strut tower brace.

[scherry2]

oh.

[keithvibe]

look great... bet it would really help if you autocrossed.

[mac99d]

That is slick as hell. Well done.

[B14CK_H4WK]

that's pretty cool that you made that your self. looks after market and like a finishes product painted yellow and smoothed out. is that just a bolt up brace? You should think about selling these for the vibe and other cars.go rally the vibe now

[moonstonemike]

Thanks for the compliments. Right now this is far from the quality level I would want if I was to sell them. Once I test it out and make a few changes, if I notice a improvement I would definatly consider making more for people.It is somewhat bolt on. The first design was completley bolt on but I wasn't happy with the locations in the front. It made more of a triangle shape, So I decided to use the same rear mount points but have the front mount wider apart on the front crossmember, so two holes had to be drilled. I may end up cutting some aluminum sheet metal to cover it. I had seen something like that on a matrix on a hypermilers website. It is supposed to cut down on wind resistance?

[Sublimewind]

that's pretty cool...!!If you do re-design, you might consider some triangulation points to properly stiffen it up, right now it's basically a box, mounted at each corner, not the strongest design, yet.. lol... I like it though.. I can't see it making a huge difference to the car... do you have a upper strut bar already? How about something for the rear? maybe a triangulation brace for the rear to?

[moonstonemike]

I will try this one out the way it is, then add some X bracing to it to see how much more it stiffens. No I dont have a strut bar yet, that will probably the next project once I get this finished. I want to make one for the rear also but haven't even looked into that yet.

[Sublimewind]

Well, you are definitely on the right track...

[moonstonemike]

OK I just got the brace installed today.Pre-Brace Testing Observations: I don’t do auto x-ing or anything so my testing was basically me pushing it a little in an empty parking lot and on the on ramp to the hiwayObservations1) The Vibes brakes are horrible (maybe its time for new brakes though)2) The 17" Kumhos are way better than the 16" eagles3) Major body lean, some sliding in the front while cornering around 65-70km/hAfter install1)Surprisingly the first observation is that a couple of the squeaks and rattles in my dash disappeared.2) I had a clunking noise (when going from a stop) in the front that has seemed to go away.3)I tried to make it fit as tight to the body as possible but a couple spots ended up touching so I will need to modify my jig slightly.3)Cornering seems a little tighter with less body lean. I didn't have a chance to really push it but tonight after work, I will run it a little harder and post the results.4)Ground clearance was still ample, only about 3/4" lost at the lowest point.5) The plastic shrouding fit over the brace but will eventually need to be trimmed a little just where the front bolts go.Before installDuring InstallThis shows how tight it fits, this spot actually isn't touching but some spots it does.Here it is installed with all four wheels on the ground

[Kamikaze]

Very cool... I see a future project for Kamikaze...Will also be waiting to see how your rear brace works (when you eventually do that one as well )

[moonstonemike]

OK so a little updateAfter a little more testing (playing) I've noticed that on slow speeds (below 50km/h) it seems to be swaying less.My dash still isn't creakingIn high speed cornering there is still alot of body lean (which i didn't expect the brace to effect that) On the same corner as before doing the same speed the front didn't slide. But this could also be due to a number of things tire temp, i may have hit less pebles etc.I will probably keep it on until I get the material to make a little beefier version.

[Sublimewind]

I like it.. I can't wait to see ver.3 I've also owned 2-3 sets of those Kumhos.. If I could still finde the proper fitment, I'd likely still be running them..

[B14CK_H4WK]

wow that project looks to really be coming along good!!!

[Old Tele man]

moonstonemike -- looks great, sounds like a VERY valuable component for people who drive over rough roads and pot-holes!IDEA--a short 2-3" slit piece of water-hose placed over the tubing at stategic points of 'slight' interference might be workable...a daub of RTV-glue will hold them in place....Q: I see how the front mounts (bolts into front cross member), but can't visualize the back mounts..."over" something existing or what?

[moonstonemike]

Thanks, I could use some rubber if I were only using this one but since I will be making more in different materials and designs I would rather just adjust my jig. The very first picture with the re-bar shows pretty good the rear mount. It is one of the bolts for the lower control arm.

[Sublimewind]

You know, looking at the full under shot of the brace mounted to the car... and us talking about triangulation, the front section might be good with simple gussets at each weld point.. if you used a triangular gusset with maybe a dimple died hole in it.. you wouldn't have to try bridging across the whole bottom of the car.. That's if you have access to a dimple die set.. I'm seeing a bit of a problem here though... Bracing to the rad support isn't doing much for you, being that it's attached in the center, an the front brace mounts are attached almost 12" away, then another at least 5-6" of metal, until it attaches to the car.. Well that's going to flex, you also haven't really braced much of anything? (seriously, not trying to be jerkish) Not yet at least... I think, and it's just me talkin... With your access to the shop, you should install some polyurethane bushings.. I would be very interested in seeing how much that would improve the front AND rear suspension.. I know the front bushings are SOFT, real soft.. well, the idea of the bracing is to prevent alignment changes.. I think a larger improvement in the suspension could be made with poly bushings... it's just then, you would realize how much body flex you would be getting.. lol... so they would play into one-another.. I also wonder what a bar running from the first set of weld points, up to the center core support mount, where the 2 bolts are for the center support running back toward the back of the car..That would give 4 mounts points on the core support and triangulate everything nicely.. This is what i'm talking about, I put in gussets and triangulation braces, in the "square" (could be either, wouldn't need both, on those 2 points) and the front triangulation mounts i'm talking about..The front mount points right now... the ends of the brace, what are they made of? it looks like solid stock, with a hole drilled in?? You could easily get away with a 1" section of tube, capped on the car side with a round of plate.. it would be lighter and just as solid..

[ou.grizzly]

Once you get the design correct, how much you charge for one as I am interested.

[Amtron]

Quote, originally posted by djkeev »Why ?????Maybe so you lose a few inches or ground clearance and can scrape bottom frequently???It's just like sway bars...which have been around for a long time...lowering springs would have the same affect of ground clearance and scraping issues too?And this is an awesome job moonstonemike! It looks like the work that you find straight out of the box. It's nice to see some creativity every now and then!

[Old Tele man]

...first off, let me clarify that I'm an EE, not a Mechanical Engineer, so I'm defintely NOT qualified to analyze nor to critique the mechanics of your design, but I do have two pertinent questions; which is it?1) the purpose is CHASSIS "twist" reduction?2) the purpose is CHASSIS "bottoming" out protection?...if #1 then all those added struts and bracings probably make sense, but......if #2, then what you've got looks sufficient, except maybe for a possible "bolt-on" (for easy repairability) oil-pan/transmission "skid" plate suitably positioned between the rails.

[moonstonemike]

You gave me some interesting ideas to think about sublimewind.I will have to take another look on the car. I'm not sure how much better it would be to add the arms going to the centre. Even with two more arms going in and say another two arms going out, (which would be 6 mounting points in the front) they are still welded to the one joint. I think you have the same problem as me where everything is over thought.But what the heck is a dimple die. Is that like running a bead on sheet metal with a bead roller?For the front mounts , I can Counter Bore it just like the rear mounts, to be lighter. It would take me less time to machine out then to weld up.Price? I'm not sure yet, I am still waiting on the new material , which is .080 or .090 inch thick wall. I have to decide on which material and which design I am happy with then figure out material cost.I would like to mark where it is touching and take it off tomorrow, but I may cut something up quick to add a plate on the bottom first.Quote, originally posted by Old Tele man »...first off, let me clarify that I'm an EE, not a Mechanical Engineer, so I'm definitely NOT qualified to analyze nor to critique the mechanics of your design, but I do have two pertinent questions; which is it?1) the purpose is CHASSIS "twist" reduction?2) the purpose is CHASSIS "bottoming" out protection?.As Grandpa Simpson once said "A little form column A, a little from column B"But seriously it is more for twist, as the engine and transmission is higher up, than say a street rod.In this case I would probably use sheet metal, which would be slight protection if it bottomed, but may be more useful in cutting drag under the car.

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by moonstonemike »You gave me some interesting ideas to think about sublimewind.I will have to take another look on the car. I'm not sure how much better it would be to add the arms going to the centre. Even with two more arms going in and say another two arms going out, (which would be 6 mounting points in the front) they are still welded to the one joint. I think you have the same problem as me where everything is over thought.But what the heck is a dimple die. Is that like running a bead on sheet metal with a bead roller?For the front mounts , I can Counter Bore it just like the rear mounts, to be lighter. It would take me less time to machine out then to weld up.Price? I'm not sure yet, I am still waiting on the new material , which is .080 or .090 inch thick wall. I have to decide on which material and which design I am happy with then figure out material cost.I would like to mark where it is touching and take it off tomorrow, but I may cut something up quick to add a plate on the bottom first.I'm glad you aren't taking my posts as criticism.. cause, while I am being critical, i'm not trying to diss your work A dimple die does this.. If you where to gusset the corners of the "square" with plate, a dimple in the center would stiffen thinner stock into being FAR stronger then a thicker heavier stock..

[moonstonemike]

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »I'm glad you aren't taking my posts as criticism.. Don't worry I dont take myself serious enough to be insulted With the dies do they shear the circle too or is that already machined?I made a quick and dirty plate to mount to the frame using sheet metal.I'm not that happy with how it came out. No sleep and 40C temperature didn't make for a very patient mike I didn't even bother to paint it or remove the sharp edges or bend it in nice and tight since it will be coming off by next week. but at least it gives me a starting point. Once again sorry for the poor quality.

[Sublimewind]

With the dies, I think you need to cut the inner hole first.. If you are plating it, there is no need for the gussets..

[dragon64]

With the dies there are two types some can punch and dimple at the same time and some only dimple a pre punched hole.One thing I should bring up is that you may have issues with insurance in the event of a front end collision. I have worked on contract for several automotive aftermarket parts manufactures and importers over the past 20+ years. Unibody cars are designed to crumple up to the firewall in the event of an accident and the drivetrain to "submarine" the passenger compartment if the impact force is great enough. Any chassis re-enforcements forward of the front suspension line will alter the crush zone and for liability reason not recomended on a street drive car. I have seen a cars were the lower chassis brace that extended to the rad bulkhead support caused the engine and transaxle to flip up into the passanger compartment and a forward frame rail puncture the door on another car in an accident because the front crush zone had been altered enough. I have been informed where insurance companies refused coverage after the adjusters discovered "off-road only" chassis bracing had been installed in the Canadian province of Ontario. I have also heard of similar insurance in several American States as well. Liability is such a big issue that even car manufactures such as Mazda remove the OE strut brace in some models sold in North America but found in all other markets

[Old Tele man]

...certainly NOT too deminish dragon64's excellent cautionary advice, but......first it's the COPS and then it's the LAWYERS taking all the fun out of hot rodding (ha,ha)....but, honestly, isn't the real underlying intent here to make more it more probable (better handling) that accident avoidance is a higher probability?

[moonstonemike]

Hey guys sorry about the extremely long delay in any updates, I made the mistake I mean smart move of getting engaged and with all the wedding stuff I didnt have much time to work on this or make updates, but here you go. I've built a 2nd brace this one was made with thicker tubing 3/32 thickness if my memory is working (which was a major pain to press oval) and cross bracing in the centre and on the front corners, lastly the lower sheet was done out of sheet aluminum for looksand weight. I haven't had time to install it to see if I feel a difference from the lighter weight one but I have jumping on the brace this thing has almost no flex in it was so ever. Keep in mind I am only 155lbs. But I think i may have done this overkill. Enjoy the new pixs and I'll try to get it installed soon. Maybe when I throw my summer wheels onStarted out as round tubein the jigweldedpainted a lovely shade of school bus yellowwith the aluminum sheet installedthe reason the aluminum doesn't go all the way to the front is because thats where the stock plastic shield stops and I still wanted a little airflow coming up into the engine compartment.

[Psychobroker]

Holy cow that's sick! My only concern would be the added weight. How much does that thing weigh?

[vibolista]

Looks like a stiff piece. Let us know how it firms up your car. You do great work!!!

[moonstonemike]

probably about 12lbs but i havn't really weighed it yet.

[B14CK_H4WK]

you really came along way with this project. looking really good!!!

[A Psycho Martyr]

Quote, originally posted by B14CK_H4WK »you really came along way with this project. looking really good!!! He's right. Took an idea and made it real. 8( I wish I had a shop at my convenience

[mkdubs]

i think you should sell me one i dig it, i like the thought of stiffening up the chassis, and also having a little bottoming out support, i constantly have my frame rails touching driveways, or something. I would be down to pay for this with the understanding that you are in no way liable. if you decide to sell keep me in mind

[moonstonemike]

Sorry for the long delay, but winter, my wedding and moving out of my parents has taken up alot of my spare time, but I finally got around to installing the new heavy duty brace while I changed my front brakes and oil.And all I can say is wow, now I've only had it on a couple days but the steering feels nice and tight on the highway , cornering feels very flat. Less creaks in the front and dash, but i did run into 2 problems. After i installed it i was getting a buzzing/rubbing noise on medium to heavy take off between 1500 2500, so the next day i lift it up again and noticed when the motor rotated it was rubbing the frame brace on my Fram easy drain valve since it sticks out, so i had to disassemble again dimple that one spot a little, now its nice and quite. The other problem is now that the front is so flat I can feel just how much the rear is swaying. I think its time for the rear brace and sway bar.Oh and the last picture with the aluminum. I hadn't put the stock front plastic shields back on yet but they fit over the frame with little modification and completely cover that gap

[A Psycho Martyr]

glad it's workin for ya looks mean as hell

[Sublimewind]

NOW THAT LOOKS AMAZING...!!!!!!

[04chargedvibe]

that looks freakin sweet!!!

[star_deceiver]

Looks really good!!! Can't wait to see the rear brace!!!

[moonstonemike]

Thanks for the kind words everyone, now i am stuckDo i make another front brace to test on another vibe... or do I go strait into the rear?????no pun intended

[vibedrivermatt]

hey man I bet with your welding skills you could make some really nice strut braces too. You could look at some aftermarket ones for design inspiration and then put your own spin on it.

[moonstonemike]

Get outta my head vibedrivermattI've been wanting to make one since I started the lower brace, Too many ideas , not enough time

[04chargedvibe]

Quote, originally posted by vibedrivermatt »hey man I bet with your welding skills you could make some really nice strut braces too. You could look at some aftermarket ones for design inspiration and then put your own spin on it. +1. Totally agree lol. With just what ive seen i bet itd be pretty sweeeeeet

[Chartman4444]

Beautiful craftmanship there. Work on the other braces before making another front brace since the other braces may point out an as-yet-unknown weakness in the front.