Directinal vs non directional tires

[chris777]

I have been researching tires for my vibe as my stocks are not gripping like they used to and I have over 35k on them now.And I can't decide what to Get. According to tire rack and a couple of other sites, the Goodyear tripletred and michelin hyroedge are the 2 top performers. BUT I had hydroedges on my old cr-v and they wore out in less than 25k, and they were 80k tires back then , now they are 90. So I am a bit squeamish about them, and have been wondering if a non directional tire might be a better choice. Now granted the crv was 4wd ("real time") and I suspect the dealer did not do the alignment properly. they wore on the edges until they were bald. Both dealer and discount tire blamed the other, and I of course had to pay for 2 of the tires myself because they would only cover one each. I do not want a repeat performance of that this time around.I live in Georgia where we now rarely have snow, So I am leaning toward all seasons. Another tire mentioned on http://www.consumersearch.com/tires is the Yokohama Avid TRZ But Discount is offering a $70 rebate on michelin, right now so unless the difference is more than $75-100 I am tempted to try the hydroedges again or go with something more traditional like their private label michelin destiny or goodyear comforttred . But I am not set on any brand or style. I just want to get the best bang for my buck . I realize I probably wont get 80k out of my tires, but I expect them to last at least 75% of the warranty, not 25% My dad of course says not to get "funny looking tires" like the hydroedge or tripletred , but they do have better warantys and reviews so I am torn especially after my past experience , but it is a different vehicle as well.

[Sublimewind]

Chris,My stance on this is get the highest performance tire you can afford... Seriously, if you think about it, tires ARE NOT that expensive... but consider the expense they CARRY... the whole car + you... !!!!!!My stance is don't skimp, don't worry so much about if you are going to get 60kmi out of them... worry more about what they will do in a panic situation.. or in the rain.. ect... Your last tires wore that way due in part to a horrible alignment and/or not rotating them properly.. depends on which edge wore to the cords, what the problem would have been, but i've driving an AWD Subie for years, and never had a problem because of the drivetrain layout... Those "funny looking" tires your dad is referring to could be one of the best things you could do for the car.. especially in a freak rain storm.. I know the area, it won't rain for weeks, then when it does, it lifts the dropped oil off the pavement and it's like ice.. lol.. I would go even higher performance.. like the Kumho SPT... I owned 2-3set of the predecessors to that tire the 712... Or maybe a Falken FK452 like what's on my Subie right now... You might be surprised at how long these tires might last with a good alignment and faithful rotations... The confidence it gives, is worth the monetary loss.. Good tires also help braking performance a LOT... the more grip you have to the road, the more brake you can use safely... I'm also NOT saying any of this because i own a wikkid cool Subaru that can smoke Vettes.... No, I say these things to try and help keep my peoples safe... "fun" performance is secondary and usually comes with a good tire purchase, but the "actual" performance of a tire is where it REALLY counts... If you happen to avoid ONE accident, because you where able to stop in time... The tires just payed for themselves... . think about it..

[cptnsolo77]

Great advice! We usually dont think that way cause accidents dont happen everyday for us, but like you said....when it does happen....!

[northvibe]

holy crap I'm lucky to get anything near 20k out of my tires...has anyone even used the tire warranty? I mean I bet they must fight the crap out of you if you try. Whats the warranty cover eve? how do you prove you had an alignment (reciepts)?I usualy go on consumer reports see their ratings and buy the recommended or top rated tire. Ive NEVER been lead astray after 4 sets of tires I've purchased myself in the last couple years and my dads tires for all his cars. But I agree the most expensive may not be the best tire but the cheapest one wont either. Go to the library and grab a consumer reports and see what they say.

[Neouka]

I got a set of the General Exclaim UHP's, put them on this spring. They're a directional tire, and not as expensive as some of the better brands.This is my first set of "funny looking tires" too, and I must say, WORTH IT, when done right. And your alignment is good.So far I've got no problems with them. They're pretty decent on dry pavement, but it should be noted that I never really drive or corner hard (It's a Vibe, not a performance car ).. Some reviews say when you start to push them they're not quite as good. Oddly enough they're even better in the rain - for some reason they're really quiet on wet pavement and it's very hard to hydroplane, even when intentionally driving through big puddles for fun.I did have to drive them in the snow once, wasn't awful but I wouldn't want to leave them on all winter.As for wear, I've had them on since March, and they seem to be in pretty much perfect shape. Getting them rotated for the first time today. Also, check these out for reviews:Summer tires: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresultsMine are ranked #5 Here's everything else:http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...x.jsp

[jake75]

A relative survived a hydroplane rollover but has serious permanent injuries. She said she wasn't going that fast - none of the airbags in her Lexus deployed.

[Sublimewind]

That's terrible Sir... My best to her... What tires was she running (you proly don't know) and what condition where they in? Hydroplaning is no joke, but with a tire in good condition, the channels on the surface are FAR more apt to direct the water away and cut through to the pavement.. The problem IS, most people panic.... I know when my car goes limp, weather hydroplaning or sliding in the ice/snow, it can be un-nerving... but it's something that needs to be planned for... This is why I tell people to go out, find a wide open parking lot, and DRIVE, drive it like you stole it.. It's the only way for one to know the limits of the car... I feel for your relative Jake, but I also feel that it could have been prevented with a little education.. possibly some nicer tires... This brings me back to high mileage tires.. which use harder compound rubber... they work FINE on nice dry pavement, but add a little bit of water and they all of a sudden, become like you drove up onto Burger King trays... IN A PANIC SITUATION..Understand Jake, I don't know the circumstances, not at all.... but I think you get what i'm saying...

[Old Tele man]

...for what it's worth, the 2009 (and probably the 2010) Vibe Owners Manual advocates only "front-to-back / back-to-front" tire rotations, and that's with the traditional non-directional Goodyear Eagle RS-A tires.

[chris777]

Well to be perfectly honest I totaled a civic 5 or 6 years ago partly due to slick tires and damp road. I skidded and when I tried to correct the car became a giant skipping stone , then thinking I was going to crash into an embankment closed my eyes (heard tales of burnt off eyebrows) only I didn't crash ...yet. the next thing I know the car is going uphill. the best I can figure is I pulled a skateboard maneuver in the car only I obviously didn't land it. I did land right side up. My phone was like 20 or 30 feet behind the car, I think I lost some of my daughters game boy games, as well.I really like this Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »This is why I tell people to go out, find a wide open parking lot, and DRIVE, drive it like you stole it.. It's the only way for one to know the limits of the car.... I had just gotten the car less than a couple of months prior, and had in the past been driving a beam axel car for the prior 6 years, so my response was not what I was used to. I am no longer a fan of double wishbone suspension. I think it was a combination of the 2, but obviouslly if I had not skidded in the first place, I would not have found out how the suspension reacted like a bucking horse. I missed 2 mack hauling trucks, that stopped to check on me after the wreck. Lets just say I wont be rushing anywhere because I am running late anymore, no job is worth the risk.I am however still a bit confused on tires . I know summer tires are supposed to be grippier than all seasons but the stats in tire rack rate the kumho, below the all season hydroedge and the tripletred. I also was unable to find much info on the falken. Any recomendations on finding more info?I had no problem with my hydroedges except the wear out But other than the stock tires on the vibe I have never had performance tires, before. I do know I cant wait to get any new tires because It does feel like a different car.

[Sublimewind]

Understand that the ratings can be anything THEY want them to be... It's privately owned company, and site... they can post any info they like, if it helps them sell tires.. I'm not saying that they are wrong, i'm just saying... If the hydroedge tires did you well, get another set.. The biggest problem here is, the unknown... There is no way for you to take my recommendation, and then KNOW for SURE that something bad isn't going to happen... I(we) just cannot predict these things.. all we can do is try and prevent them.. I feel a better tire is one way of doing that.. it's cheap insurance... (wait till fall comes around and I start talking winter tires..lol)Could you have prevented rolling your car... possibly, maybe, not likely... The biggest issue was you where thinking about your eyelashes, rather than the MACK TRUCK coming toward you... No tire can help you in that situation... lol..

[northvibe]

I dont get why drivers ed in snow states dont have snow/ice driving?!! thats crazy, it could save SOOOO MANY people lives and cars if they knew what to do. yes and after having a set of snow tires, I will NEVER again get all seasons unless its a truck or something huge. The summer only then winter only tires only cost a little more under 1k usually and you get the best performance out of the tire in those conditions then. I wont risk my life because I wanted to save 800 bucks. and its probably cheaper for vibe winter tires.

[chris777]

just to clarify I skipped back and fourth across the road and after I went off the road I shut them heading into (then up) the bank. I had a buddy get in a pretty bad wreck where he was blasted burning his eyebrows off and smashing his sunglasses into his face. I for one would be a fan of curtain air bags all the way around myself instead of a broken nose and other injuries from a "safety" measure.I was just saying that I could have easily struck one of those trucks had they been a little closer when I skidded into their lane. right now I am leaning toward some sort of water channeling tread, cause as you know there can be an inch or more of water on the road really quick. I have been in some recent storms where I thought about stopping the downpour was so bad. My dad nearly gave ME a heart attack driving us a couple of months back in the rain and I couldn't see more than 15 feet ahead.But I have had more than I care to of hydroplaning, in the past and hope that can help.as for ice driving , one of my old co workers was from up north and all I heard was gripes about how people down here did not know how to drive in it, (we had icy roads 3 or 4 times that year) I drove on it once slow slow slow, and hardly braked. My (removed) employer waited until AFTER work hours began to tell people they did not have to come in if they could not. I did get a free absence/late pass for it, but obviously if I had ended up in a ditch they would not have batted an eye.

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »That's terrible Sir... My best to her... What tires was she running (you proly don't know) and what condition where they in? Hydroplaning is no joke, but with a tire in good condition, the channels on the surface are FAR more apt to direct the water away and cut through to the pavement.. The problem IS, most people panic.... I know when my car goes limp, weather hydroplaning or sliding in the ice/snow, it can be un-nerving... but it's something that needs to be planned for... This is why I tell people to go out, find a wide open parking lot, and DRIVE, drive it like you stole it.. It's the only way for one to know the limits of the car... I feel for your relative Jake, but I also feel that it could have been prevented with a little education.. possibly some nicer tires... This brings me back to high mileage tires.. which use harder compound rubber... they work FINE on nice dry pavement, but add a little bit of water and they all of a sudden, become like you drove up onto Burger King trays... IN A PANIC SITUATION..Understand Jake, I don't know the circumstances, not at all.... but I think you get what I'm saying... I know what you are saying.She has no memory of the accident so there is a lot we'll never know. Everyone assumes the loss of control was hydroplaning.While she says she was not going that fast I wonder - she has had a lead foot in the past. I think the speed limit on I-64 in West Va is 70 mph. But if the rain was heavy then that is too fast. I am sure the tires were in good shape as my brother does everything the dealer tells him to do in regard to service etc.., but I don't know what brand. The car was relatively new so may have been OEM. But it was a Lexus 400 series so I assume they were better tires than you get on a run of the mill car.

[chris777]

I have another question. I recently noticed something I had not considered, speed rating.I was curious if I went with a t rated tire, if the difference would be that big?I don't work, but I do take road trips. And recently let a friend drive us in the vibe to Charlotte NC from atlanta, but this is atypical. At most I take my daughter up to see her family on weekends, and its about a 120 mile round trip, not including going out or visiting different relatives. PLus I am getting more and more fatigued and have been stopping and taking cat naps or whatnot in general. I typically do 80, and occasionally 90 but only if there is a good reason.Would I still need to stick with h rated ? or would t probably be acceptable?I know it would really give me a short list if I stuck with h rated, but I do have several in each group, but a couple of really good sounding deals in the t rated.

[chris777]

Oh I did have a tire rack rep, tell me that directional were more prone for uneven wear, and thus noise potential. But unless it is horrible, or a safety issue I could probably live with it.

[vibolista]

First time I've read about a double wishbone suspenssion causing slick tires to skid on a wet pavement. Some how I don't think the double wishbones had much to do with your unfortunate accident, but it was a nice try. Baddly worn tires and a wet surface will interact to cause the very same thing to happen, regardless of suspenssion type on any car. Taking a chance on worn out tires is a bad move, especially on wet roads. You are a very lucky person.Most high performance race cars and trucks use double wishbones. There must be a reason? And I don't think it's because they like those out of control skids.

[chris777]

No it was the instability of the suspension that made me unable to regain control. once I skidded when I tried to correct the mushyness of it that gives it a comfortable ride and rave reviews is not only useless but in my opinion made things worse, I literally felt like a skipping stone. I have skidded before in my previous car, which I was more accustomed to, it had a rear beam axel but I personally would prefer it, it is more stable.Now granted I can only compare dual wishbone to my other cars, and vehicles Ihave driven, but in much the same way sublimewind is for seasonal tires, I also think a stiffer suspension is a safety issue, think about it if you are making a hard turn and you lean because the suspension is all mushy and then try to correct that in a situation where quick reflexes are required, well lets just say that I am growing more understanding of the comfort aspect , I think it is a trade off for safety, much like the stupid stupid thick pillars on the rear of the vibe and too many modern cars, it may look cool, but considering the trix has better visibility it is an unsafe decision of their part.I know I was driving too fast for conditions, but I had driven that route for 6 years prior, and only a couple of months in the civic. IT was obviouslly a combination of factors, myself included, but it definitely got me thinking about if the so called comfort gains were really worth it. I am saying in an emergency response situation where avoidance maneuvers are used, I have no desire to ever drive one again. Just like you said you never heard of it, but I have ran across many things where most people don't pay attention to it. I did a search after my wreck and found nothing either, all I know Is I had a much more stable and predictable response from a vehicle that was 14 years older. I guess it is something I had not considered before but after having survived it I pay attention to it now. It is kind of like getting the vibe over the scion xb I was really close on them until I drove them back to back and noticed how much more power the vibe had, and thinking about how many times I wish I had more power getting on the interstate or other situations where it might come in handy. If you don't need it great, but having it when you do, and it being helpful, it is really worth it , in my opinion.

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »I know what you are saying.She has no memory of the accident so there is a lot we'll never know. Everyone assumes the loss of control was hydroplaning.While she says she was not going that fast I wonder - she has had a lead foot in the past. I think the speed limit on I-64 in West Va is 70 mph. But if the rain was heavy then that is too fast. I am sure the tires were in good shape as my brother does everything the dealer tells him to do in regard to service etc.., but I don't know what brand. The car was relatively new so may have been OEM. But it was a Lexus 400 series so I assume they were better tires than you get on a run of the mill car.Well, Sir, that's a shame... That she has no memory of the accident (maybe for the best, who knows) Even the best of tires can't save you in some situations... once the car is sliding and angles past the point of no return, the best drivers on the best tires can't do anything but wait for it to end... we see this all the time in motorsports... Put together a heavy luxury car, possibly decent tires, (though they were likely all season) add in rain and possibly a panic overcompensation or 3 and well .... you know the rest..

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by chris777 »I have another question. I recently noticed something I had not considered, speed rating.I was curious if I went with a t rated tire, if the difference would be that big?I don't work, but I do take road trips. And recently let a friend drive us in the vibe to Charlotte NC from atlanta, but this is atypical. At most I take my daughter up to see her family on weekends, and its about a 120 mile round trip, not including going out or visiting different relatives. PLus I am getting more and more fatigued and have been stopping and taking cat naps or whatnot in general. I typically do 80, and occasionally 90 but only if there is a good reason.Would I still need to stick with h rated ? or would t probably be acceptable?I know it would really give me a short list if I stuck with h rated, but I do have several in each group, but a couple of really good sounding deals in the t rated.H rating takes you up to past 100mph IIRC... and those rating are for extended periods of time.. like 1hr or more.. I have Z rated tires on my Subie, re you i won't be doing 140 for an hour ANYWHERE.. lol.. I think you would be fine..

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by chris777 »Oh I did have a tire rack rep, tell me that directional were more prone for uneven wear, and thus noise potential. But unless it is horrible, or a safety issue I could probably live with it.They are in a lot of respects, because of the directional nature, you can only rotate them front to rear, and not across the car, because it would flip the tread the wrong direction... The best thing to combat tire wear is proper alignment and rotation... even if it IS just front to rear rotation... the front end toe is usually set up a little toe IN, to help provide stability.. It also works over the tires.. if you rotate to the rear, which should have zero toe in, you double the life of the tire.. and they wear more evenly...

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by vibolista »First time I've read about a double wishbone suspenssion causing slick tires to skid on a wet pavement. Some how I don't think the double wishbones had much to do with your unfortunate accident, but it was a nice try. Baddly worn tires and a wet surface will interact to cause the very same thing to happen, regardless of suspenssion type on any car. Taking a chance on worn out tires is a bad move, especially on wet roads. You are a very lucky person.Most high performance race cars and trucks use double wishbones. There must be a reason? And I don't think it's because they like those out of control skids. A double wishbone suspension is designed to try and keep the tire level to the surface of the road, through the travel of the suspension... There is a lot of geometry going on obviously... Is one style better than the other? Hard to say, much of it is dependent on what the car is used for...

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by chris777 »No it was the instability of the suspension that made me unable to regain control. once I skidded when I tried to correct the mushyness of it that gives it a comfortable ride and rave reviews is not only useless but in my opinion made things worse, I literally felt like a skipping stone. I have skidded before in my previous car, which I was more accustomed to, it had a rear beam axel but I personally would prefer it, it is more stable.Now granted I can only compare dual wishbone to my other cars, and vehicles Ihave driven, but in much the same way sublimewind is for seasonal tires, I also think a stiffer suspension is a safety issue, think about it if you are making a hard turn and you lean because the suspension is all mushy and then try to correct that in a situation where quick reflexes are required, well lets just say that I am growing more understanding of the comfort aspect , I think it is a trade off for safety, much like the stupid stupid thick pillars on the rear of the vibe and too many modern cars, it may look cool, but considering the trix has better visibility it is an unsafe decision of their part.I know I was driving too fast for conditions, but I had driven that route for 6 years prior, and only a couple of months in the civic. IT was obviouslly a combination of factors, myself included, but it definitely got me thinking about if the so called comfort gains were really worth it. I am saying in an emergency response situation where avoidance maneuvers are used, I have no desire to ever drive one again. Just like you said you never heard of it, but I have ran across many things where most people don't pay attention to it. I did a search after my wreck and found nothing either, all I know Is I had a much more stable and predictable response from a vehicle that was 14 years older. I guess it is something I had not considered before but after having survived it I pay attention to it now. It is kind of like getting the vibe over the scion xb I was really close on them until I drove them back to back and noticed how much more power the vibe had, and thinking about how many times I wish I had more power getting on the interstate or other situations where it might come in handy. If you don't need it great, but having it when you do, and it being helpful, it is really worth it , in my opinion.There are very few "comfort" gains to be had in the different kinds of suspension designs... Comfort is not so much in the design, but in the "compliance" designed into the system... From springs to shocks to the bushings the suspension uses as pivot points.. that is where the comfort level comes from... A combination of factors, most definitely... Road conditions - slick/wet (I've driven into tripe digit speeds in HEAVY rain, on proper tires)Tire condition - possibly not the bestTire inflation - low pressure "cups" the tread, lifting the center ribs of the tire off the ground... Hi pressure lifts the edges of the tread, bulging the center. Driver condition - what was the driver doing at the time, anything could be a factor here.. from cell phone to lack of sleep and/or preparedness for hydroplaning.. Car condition - how old was the car? A more compliant suspension helps to "slow" reactions to input from the road/driver.. this slowing process helps 90% of the people on the road from doing damage... because most panic and JERK the wheel... Well, I would defile you to jerk the wheel in my Subie, as the suspension isn't compliant at ALL... things happen FAR quicker when they do happen... Understand that my Subie has a FAR greater amount of ultimate grip.. so things DON'T often happen...lol... but when they do, it's more of a "snap" reaction rather than a gradual progression... To some, this is VERY scary... to others, they wouldn't have it any other way... What likely happened, was you hydroplaned, the car wagged it's tail (depending on where/how the hydroplaning occurred) you corrected, possibly over corrected... Once that happened the suspension "loaded up" or reached it's effective travel limits... and it's compliance dropped like a rock in water... By that time, the angles of the car were far to great for any hope of correction and you became a passenger on a rough ride..