Pontiac may go, where does it leave us?

vintagegz · Post by **vintagegz** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:07 pm

Well restructuring plan was announced yesterday, it looks like Pontiac will be going except for 'niche models'. I wonder where this is going to leave us, 5 years of warranty, probably very few dealers to service them, and no resale value.......Your comments are invited.

Kari · Post by **Kari** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:14 pm

I think the Vibe probably would be a "niche model" because it is not sold under any other GM banner. In fact, the Vibe is probably more of a niche model than anything else sold under the Pontiac name...everything else has a "double" under another GM name, right?

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:21 pm

SOLEdit: "everything else has a "double" under another GM name, right?"Except the G8.

Kari · Post by **Kari** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:33 pm

I was thinking of that one too but wasn't sure if it had a twin or not. CP says no though.

kowell · Post by **kowell** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:41 pm

A used vibe should still keep some resale value since the majority of components will still be available at the nearest Toyota dealer with the exceptions of some exterior pannels like bumpers and such.If you're not prone to nightmare you can always look at another possibility below....

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:04 am

Quote, originally posted by Kari Â»I was thinking of that one too but wasn't sure if it had a twin or not. CP says no though.If I need to be accurate, it doesn't have a sibling available in the US.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:42 am

Well the G8 is a Holden which technically could be considered a GM in AUS.

NascarXprt · Post by **NascarXprt** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:54 am

like ive stated in similar threads, Pontiac will only be: Vibe, G8, Solstice (convert. and Coupe coming out this year), and the G5~G6 which one forsure, i dont know. but the other three are what are staying.

shemp · Post by **shemp** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:31 am

I think by law OEM's have to stock parts for 10 years after the production run. If they go belly-up, obviously all bets are off but we're just talking about GM shutting down a division here.

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:12 am

Quote, originally posted by northvibe Â»Well the G8 is a Holden which technically could be considered a GM in AUS.It's a Vauxhall in the UK.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauxhall_VXR8And a Chevy in the Middle East.http://www.autoblog.com/2007/1...e-cr8/

kostby · Post by **kostby** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:52 am

We're in the same place as owners of Oldsmobile, Plymouth, AMC, Edsel, DeSoto, Hudson, Kaiser-Frazier and all the hundreds of orphan automobile brands since 1896...If your car is in MINT condition, it MIGHT be collectible in another 25 years, IF you can keep it STORED in mint condition that long. (Look at Barrett-Jackson and Kruse for clues as to what will be collectible in 25- to 50-years: cars with style, cars with soul, and cars with BOTH soul and style.BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT.The Vibe fails on all counts. Vibes have contemporary (but not ground-breaking) styling, high (but not extreme) fuel efficiency, and the soul of most household five-passenger appliances.For more perspective, just how many 1971 Chevy Vega Hatchbacks (Not the Cosworth-Vega) and how many Ford Pinto Wagons (Not the Porthole window model) have you ever seen at auction?And yet '69 Mustangs, '69 Z-28's, '71 Hemi-Challengers and Hemi-Cuda's are STILL so popular (and so high-priced) that manufacturers have RECREATED THEM as new cars at $25,000 -$50,000 per copy for Baby Boomers and new generations of buyers.THE BOTTOM LINE:If it's your daily driver, drive it until the wheels fall off, and then buy a new vehicle from whatever car manufacturer is still around: Hyundai? Porsche? Nissan? Mercedes? Chery?

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:59 am

And Packard and Studebaker.Glad I got my '09 cheap.

vintagegz · Post by **vintagegz** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:35 am

i feel better already

musicmanmu · Post by **musicmanmu** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:12 am

Sigh...and I thought my 09 was destinted to become a classic

shemp · Post by **shemp** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:43 am

Quote, originally posted by kostby Â»We're in the same place as owners of Oldsmobile, Plymouth, AMC, Edsel, DeSoto, Hudson, Kaiser-Frazier and all the hundreds of orphan automobile brands since 1896...I get what you're trying to say, but all those you listed did not affect owners in the same way. Oldsmobile and Plymouth did not go "out of business" per se. They were simply discontinued nameplates from a still functioning OEM. I don't know the exact circumstances of the rest, but I believe most if not all of them actually ceased to exist as a business entity. There is obviously a difference between these two scenarios regarding the effect on current owners of the affected nameplates.

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:00 pm

Yeah, people that own Saabs and Saturns shouldn't be worried about getting parts, etc. My wife's 1994 Olds is still super easy to fix. It's the resale value that is gonna suck.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:28 pm

For what it's worth - article in today's Wall St. Jrl. said Pontriac "would be reduced to just one or two models."The plan is to reduce the number of GM models to 36 from 48 by 2012. Models slated for elimination said to include the Cobalt and Saab 9-5. (but I thought all of Saab was slated to go.) . Pontiac has 3 somewhat unique models; Soltice, Vibe and G-8. Pick one or two - I don't think Vibe survives as a Pontiac. Slightly modify the front end and it can be a Chevy or a Buick.The announced plans in regard to Saturn have apparently contributed to January sales 60% below last year - 6,172 - about 15 per dealership. The bond holders said "GM needs to drive hard so it is competitive soon, not in 2012."Personally I do not think you can turn around GM fast enough to avoid either bankruptcy or massive government support, and I think that the public and Congress is not very supportive of massive government help. I read where GM bonds are selling for about 20 cents on the dollar so my pessimism is shared by many.

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:58 pm

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»For what it's worth - article in today's Wall St. Jrl. said Pontriac "would be reduced to just one or two models."The plan is to reduce the number of GM models to 36 from 48 by 2012. Models slated for elimination said to include the Cobalt and Saab 9-5. (but I thought all of Saab was slated to go.) This illustrates a major problem for GM and Chrysler. The moment plans are announced to cut a model or brand the sales fall much farther and make their capital situation even worse. Normally such plans would be kept secret as long as possible - there might be some rumors in the automotive press, but not confirmed stories in regular papers. But with the government involved the plans are part of the public record and they'll have to run fire sales to clear out inventory of the models slated to be axed.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:05 am

Quote, originally posted by prathman Â»This illustrates a major problem for GM and Chrysler. The moment plans are announced to cut a model or brand the sales fall much farther and make their capital situation even worse. Normally such plans would be kept secret as long as possible - there might be some rumors in the automotive press, but not confirmed stories in regular papers. But with the government involved the plans are part of the public record and they'll have to run fire sales to clear out inventory of the models slated to be axed.They are pretty much running fire sales on everything anyway. As an amateur economist, here is the dilemma. Numbers for illustration only.GM (and others)Fixed costs if produce 0 vehicles $30 billionScenario #1 - Produce 0 vehicles - revenue -0-; $30 bil lossScenario #2Produce 5 mil vehicles - sell for $15,000 each - Revenue $75 bilFixed cost still $30 bilAdded expense to produce/sell 5 mil vehicles @12,000 ea = $60 bilTotal cost is $30 bbil + $60 bil; total costs $90 bilNow only lose $15 bilNeed to get $18,000 each to get revenue of $90 bil to break even.Scenarion #3Produce/sell 10 mil @ cost of 12,000 = $120 bilTotal cost is now $30 bil + $120 bi - $150 BILl Revenues @ $15,000 each = $150 bil.Now break even.Obviously their business model given current fixed costs was based on a much higher sales level and/or ability to charge more per car. . In the short run the best bet is to minimize your losses so long as the prices are not below the added cost of production. In the long run you have to cover the fixed costs as well - so unless you can increase sales or increases prices you have to reduce the fixed costs.Bankruptcy often is a way to decrease fixed costs.

Vibe_dude · Post by **Vibe_dude** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:14 am

Quote, originally posted by kostby Â»We're in the same place as owners of Oldsmobile, Plymouth, AMC, Edsel, DeSoto, Hudson, Kaiser-Frazier and all the hundreds of orphan automobile brands since 1896...If your car is in MINT condition, it MIGHT be collectible in another 25 years, IF you can keep it STORED in mint condition that long. (Look at Barrett-Jackson and Kruse for clues as to what will be collectible in 25- to 50-years: cars with style, cars with soul, and cars with BOTH soul and style.BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT.The Vibe fails on all counts. Vibes have contemporary (but not ground-breaking) styling, high (but not extreme) fuel efficiency, and the soul of most household five-passenger appliances.For more perspective, just how many 1971 Chevy Vega Hatchbacks (Not the Cosworth-Vega) and how many Ford Pinto Wagons (Not the Porthole window model) have you ever seen at auction?And yet '69 Mustangs, '69 Z-28's, '71 Hemi-Challengers and Hemi-Cuda's are STILL so popular (and so high-priced) that manufacturers have RECREATED THEM as new cars at $25,000 -$50,000 per copy for Baby Boomers and new generations of buyers.THE BOTTOM LINE:If it's your daily driver, drive it until the wheels fall off, and then buy a new vehicle from whatever car manufacturer is still around: Hyundai? Porsche? Nissan? Mercedes? Chery?I think if I had the money to put away 1 car,and never drive it.It would have to be a 09 Chevy Corvette ZR1.Now thats one car that meets all the needs to be a collector car!

Blueridge9 · Post by **Blueridge9** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:42 am

This is my daily drive, favorite car and I will drive it as long as possible. I think someone from GM should write a public letter to Pontiac owners like us answering FAQs.

Vibe2009 · Post by **Vibe2009** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:44 am

Same with me, my plan is to drive my newly bought vibe as long as possible... at least ten years!

micbarric · Post by **micbarric** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:30 pm

Last night NBC News aired a short tribute to Pontiac:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/#29307802Great cars, fond memories, but no Vibes.

bodhi_tree777 · Post by **bodhi_tree777** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:49 am

"Buick Vibe" sounds weird .

vibolista · Post by **vibolista** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:31 am

Rumors have it that Chevy will take the Vibe at the point that Pontiac fades away and re-badges it as the sportier Chevy Vivette.

bodhi_tree777 · Post by **bodhi_tree777** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:25 am

Quote, originally posted by vibolista Â»Rumors have it that Chevy will take the Vibe at the point that Pontiac fades away and re-badges it as the sportier Chevy Vivette. yuck. I will probably never drive a Vivette.

vibolista · Post by **vibolista** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:58 pm

Quote, originally posted by bodhi_tree777 Â»yuck. I will probably never drive a Vivette.Let's all hope not! What ever happens to GM, I'm sure it has a good chance to make it back. Won't be the same company, but it could eventually be better than it is now. There are a lot of talented people working for them and that could make the difference down the road if they make the right product mix decisions.

Kari · Post by **Kari** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:25 pm

As long as there are still GM dealerships around, you should be able to get parts/service with no problem. When I was attending Miami of OH, I took my Vibe to the Chevy dealership there in town for all of my routine service, and they had no problem at all with working on it. Chevy had a car on the Corolla platform too.

NascarXprt · Post by **NascarXprt** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:20 am

wasnt that a Geo prism?

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:37 am

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:41 am

Quote, originally posted by NascarXprt Â»wasnt that a Geo prism? And its predecessor which I still have, the Chevy Nova.

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:30 pm

And was later the Chevrolet Prizm. If Saturn goes away, Pontiac would have three unique vehicles: G8, Vibe and Solstice. That makes it worth keeping at least as a "niche" brand.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:54 pm

Naw, with their marketing brains they will decide to call it a Chevy Vega.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:01 pm

There is a small cluster of dealers where I bought by Vibe. 1. Pontiac-GMC2. Chevrolet3. BuickThere was a rumor a year or so ago that the Chevrolet dealership was for sale and that it would combine with the Pontiac-GMC. Now the rumor is that the Pontiac-GMC dealer is going to buy the Buick dealer. I would not be surprised if they all three end up together. In that case two major pieces of real estate are going to be empty.

michaelgt · Post by **michaelgt** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:26 am

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»There is a small cluster of dealers where I bought by Vibe. 1. Pontiac-GMC2. Chevrolet3. BuickThere was a rumor a year or so ago that the Chevrolet dealership was for sale and that it would combine with the Pontiac-GMC. Now the rumor is that the Pontiac-GMC dealer is going to buy the Buick dealer. I would not be surprised if they all three end up together. In that case two major pieces of real estate are going to be empty.GM is trying to get Buick, Pontiac and GMC into single dealerships. It is very likely that they will combine. There will not be enough vehicles for dealers to stay in business without the three divisions.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:54 am

It does seem silly (wasteful) to have multiple nameplates on minor variations of what is basically the same vehicle. I remember when I bought a Buick Estate Wagon in 1977 there were nearly identical SW's from Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Buick. I picked the Buick over the Pontiac because it had a couple of minor features/options the other didn't. However it also seems silly and wasteful to abandon a valuable trademark/name like Pontiac. Not that you have to have separate dealerships - just don't toss out the equity in their brands. But then I guess I'm not as smart as those well paid executives at GM. Wait a minute - my business is making money, not losing it. Maybe I am not so dumb after all.

michaelgt · Post by **michaelgt** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:22 am

JakeI do not know your business, but glad it is making money. Hopefully there are many more that are making money and willing to spend on new cars!PS - Is your company hiring? There may be some "dumb" GM employees looking to move south for a job.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:43 am

1. Well I recently spent some money on a new car.2. The "'dumb" GM employees I was referring to will probably not be looking to move south for a job, they will probably take their golden parachutes and move south to a life of leisure.3. I am a one person operation - the government makes it too damn complicated to hire people. One of my favorite cartoons shows two Congressmen talking - one says to the other - "Boy, I am glad I am not in business today and have to comply with all of these laws we pass."

vibolista · Post by **vibolista** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:39 am

Don't really think there's been a lot of good thinking going on in GM for a while now. They dumped (retired) Oldsmobile 'cause it was an old man's brand. Now they are keeping Buick, a really old peoples car, (Please no upsets, I resemble the remark! ) and will take Pontiac out of the mix or reduce it.Isn't Pontiac the 'Excitement' division??? And look at that Buick line-up... the Chinese really like it and I still don't understand that one either. Go to Florida and count the Buicks sludging up the roads. All driven by very senior citizens. The rest are in Mercury Marquis and Ford Crown Vics. Wealthier ones float by in the other related Lincoln Town cars. There are billions of 'em down there I tell you! So why choose Buick over Pontiac, GM, why??

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:40 am

It's all about actual sales numbers. That's why Oldsmobile went away. Poor sales. Same thing with Plymouth. In fact, I think Mercury's sales numbers have been even worse than Oldsmobile's ever were.If they can sell more Buicks than Pontiacs, then Buick will stay and Pontiac will become a "niche brand".

NascarXprt · Post by **NascarXprt** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:43 am

down here they already had Buick, GMC, and Ponitac in one dealerships. now they might merge two of em into 1 brand. like Pontiac into GMC or GMC into Buick or and of the possible combos. now it would beintresting to see the vibe as a caddy.

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:43 pm

Buick, Pontiac and GMC are grouped together around here as well.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:03 am

Quote, originally posted by NascarXprt Â»down here they already had Buick, GMC, and Ponitac in one dealerships. now they might merge two of em into 1 brand. like Pontiac into GMC or GMC into Buick or and of the possible combos. now it would beintresting to see the vibe as a caddy.Call it the Cadillac Cimarron. Maybe it could redeem that model name for Cadillac.From Time Mag - 50 WORST CARS OF ALL TIME -The horror. The horror. Everything that was wrong, venal, lazy and mendacious about GM in the 1980s was crystallized in this flagrant insult to the good name and fine customers of Cadillac. Spooked by the success of premium small cars from Mercedes-Benz, GM elected to rebadge its awful mass-market J-platform sedans, load them up with chintzy fabrics and accessories and call them "Cimarron, by Cadillac." Wha...? Who? Seeking an even hotter circle of hell, GM priced these pseudo-caddies (with four-speed manual transmissions, no less) thousands more than their Chevy Cavalier siblings. This bit of temporizing nearly killed Cadillac and remains its biggest shame.

KNINE · Post by **KNINE** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 am

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»Naw, with their marketing brains they will decide to call it a Chevy Vega.Hey, watch it now. I liked the Vega. I owned a 73 GT.

KNINE · Post by **KNINE** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:38 am

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»Call it the Cadillac Cimarron. Maybe it could redeem that model name for Cadillac.From Time Mag - 50 WORST CARS OF ALL TIME -The horror. The horror. Everything that was wrong, venal, lazy and mendacious about GM in the 1980s was crystallized in this flagrant insult to the good name and fine customers of Cadillac. Spooked by the success of premium small cars from Mercedes-Benz, GM elected to rebadge its awful mass-market J-platform sedans, load them up with chintzy fabrics and accessories and call them "Cimarron, by Cadillac." Wha...? Who? Seeking an even hotter circle of hell, GM priced these pseudo-caddies (with four-speed manual transmissions, no less) thousands more than their Chevy Cavalier siblings. This bit of temporizing nearly killed Cadillac and remains its biggest shame. I remember those. They were horrible cars. I'm sure Cadillac would like to hire the Men In Black to erase those from our memories.

NascarXprt · Post by **NascarXprt** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:57 am

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»Call it the Cadillac Cimarron. Maybe it could redeem that model name for Cadillac.From Time Mag - 50 WORST CARS OF ALL TIME -The horror. The horror. Everything that was wrong, venal, lazy and mendacious about GM in the 1980s was crystallized in this flagrant insult to the good name and fine customers of Cadillac. Spooked by the success of premium small cars from Mercedes-Benz, GM elected to rebadge its awful mass-market J-platform sedans, load them up with chintzy fabrics and accessories and call them "Cimarron, by Cadillac." Wha...? Who? Seeking an even hotter circle of hell, GM priced these pseudo-caddies (with four-speed manual transmissions, no less) thousands more than their Chevy Cavalier siblings. This bit of temporizing nearly killed Cadillac and remains its biggest shame. and it'd look something like this:

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