Dealer says ScanGauge ruined my PCM and I can't use ScanGauge anymore

[Markmysite]

I've had my car into my local dealer 5 times now for a check engine light code (PO171: air-fuel ration, feedback is stable after warm up, but rich on start up), which is a lean running condition.They checked the mass air flow sensor, engine coolant temp sensor, changed the front O2 sensor, checked the pcv, says the fuel pressure is ok, and have replaced all 4 injectors. Basically, they have went down the list and keep calling GM technical support and have no clue what the issue is that is causing the code. They asked me about my ScanGauge on the 2nd trip because their tech thought it might be sending codes to the ECM and PCM and is screwing it up. I explained it is only reading and not changing or flashing anything. I also explained that the check engine light was also on BEFORE I even bought the ScanGauge and plugged it in. Well, now they are trying to tell me that it is screwing up the PCM because it makes the car get better fuel economy (they went online to see what a ScanGauge was). I don't think they read the part about it helps with fuel economy by giving you read outs so you can adjust your driving patterns.Anyhow, they also said they can't even reflash the PCM like they can on GM cars. So, they are going to replace the PCM, but told me I can't plug my ScanGauge back in after or it will void my warranty on the PCM in the future (at any GM dealer).Has anyone ever had a dealer tell them they can't use their ScanGauge? Do you think they are just grasping for straws here?

[prathman]

Quote, originally posted by Markmysite »Do you think they are just grasping for straws here?Yes, I think they're grasping for straws. But note that the ScanGauge must be able to send as well as receive data since it can reset the CEL. Never heard of one causing any problems so I'm sure your code is unrelated to the use of the ScanGauge. And how would a dealer ever know if you reconnected it as long as it wasn't plugged in when you took it to them?

[jake75]

I suggest you contact the company that makes the ScanGauge and report what the GM service people told you. While I don't know anything about the "reflash" vs. replace issue, it seems strange to me that if a pcm from GM could be reflashed that a pcm from other makes could not. I am sure someone on the board can advise if this is a bunch of b.s.

[Markmysite]

Yeah I'm going to call Linear-Logic (company who makes it) when they open ... they are in AZ ... MSD time.You can reflash our PCM's, they just can't do it at this GM dealer since it's a Toyota engine and has a Toyota PCM. They sell flash tools for it online for like $1,200 I think. Any Toyota dealer could do it I bet. The downside to having a Toyota car with a GM dress on it.

[nygiantzz1]

I think the dealer you're using is too cheap to buy the flash tool. I had the PCM replaced on my 06 a few months ago at a Pontiac dealer and an updated program was flashed to it after install. There are several Vibe owners on here using scanguages with no problems. I think they are just making up excuses at this point.

[keithvibe]

i have been using my scanguage for over 2yrs now with out issue.. your dealer is just messing with your head... time to find another dealer, cuz the ones you are dealing with now are worthless

[ColonelPanic]

The SG can trigger some bizarre issues in certain GM cars, like something stupid such as interfering with the radio of all things. I've read a few hypermilers complain about the SG causing CEL's on their Hondas too. From what I've read, usually having the update set too fast messes with things.But I haven't heard of it actually causing permanent damage. Maybe it would mess something up if you go into the more advanced programming functions and sent random commands to the PCM.I've owned my gen-I SG since early 2006, never had any problems. It's been in the Vibe and now in a Hyundai, haven't had issues with either. I do however, make it a point to NOT have it installed when I bring the car in to the dealer because of this exact reason. I don't want to give them any excuse to give me a hassle. I've yet to have a CEL, but if I do I won't even tell them that I scanned the code, I'll let them figure it out. The manufacturers and dealers want to keep us in the dark, us having knowledge of what's going on under the hood must frighten them.

[Markmysite]

Well, I called Linear-Logic (company who makes SG) as soon as they were open. I spoke with Ron DeLong (the inventor of the ScanGauge) for quite a while. He was not happy to hear them saying that the SG could be the cause and said that if that's the case then GM and Toyota are selling a car that is non-OBDII compliant and that it is against the law. He said that if in fact the SG is causing the problem, that GM and Toyota are going to need to issue a recall of every single vehicle that is not meeting the compliance laws. He asked for the dealer name, phone and contact person in service. He got my name, car make, model and year. He said he would call my dealer when we got off the phone. Well, he called the dealer and explained what his product does, that it could not cause this issue, and so on. He also explained that his company would take legal action from this point if needed. I assume Linear-Logic would not like such unsubstantiated claims continuing to be made ... heh.Anyhow, during this time the service manager was on her way to pick me up to get me a rental car. Ron called me back while I was in the car with her to let me know what he said to the service person at the dealer. He also let me know that he left the service mgr a voice mail (I let him know I was in the car with her and he said to tell her about it).So, I get my rental car and leave. 8 minutes later Ron calls again to let me know he spoke with the manager and they will replace my PCM under warranty. She still persisted that the SG might be 1 bad one in 50,000 and it could be the cause. So, to nullify that issue Ron is going to send me a brand new replacement unit express mail. Ron also told her that he thinks changing the PCM will not fix that code (which I had already brought up to the dealer), and that he thinks it's a vacuum leak issue. He explained how to check for it while driving and everything. I don't know if they will do what he asked, but he is going so far out of his way to help me it's unbelievable. I've never, ever dealt with a company who was this helpful and responsive. Talk about customer service, and from the inventor/owner no less.He also advised me of lemon-law application to this issue, and we discussed the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Basically, the dealer is going to have to fix this CEL code or get me a new car, period. Ron ended our conversation with this, "Mark we will get this whole situation figured out, don't worry about it". How freaking cool is this guy?!?!?!?!?

[ColonelPanic]

Wow! Way to go, Ron! I often had wondered what would happen if a dealer brought up use of the SG, I'm glad he's got our back. I'm glad you're getting your car fixed... And when they put in the new PCM, fire it up and still have the CEL they'll know all too well the SG wasn't the cause.

[Markmysite]

Ron proved to me that he and his legal team do indeed have our backs. Here's a link to a video of an interview Ron did on MSNBC ... if you're curious about the SG or what Ron is like.http://video.aol.com/video-det...32430Another great audio interview he did:http://www.podtech.net/home/3665/scangauge

[Kamikaze]

Stick it to the man!Good work! Can't wait till GM fires up the car and sees that they've been putting their foots in their mouths for no reason... I've had my SGII in my car for almost a year... never a CEL. No problems, and there shouldn't be as it doesn't alter any fuel managment or anything. You should have more of an issue with a K&N filter than a Scangague. (Not you personally but in general)Glad to hear of the Stellar Customer service you have received from Ron, GO RON!

[northvibe]

holy crap!! thats awesome!! thats so good to hear he is helping you out like that. Really makes that company stand out PR/CS wise. just awesome

[bull77]

kudos man for not taking any crap and sticking it to them still planning on going to that dealer after all of this?

[Markmysite]

Yeah, they are actually very nice about it all. I honestly don't feel like they are out to get me at all. They are just saying that "IF" the ScanGauge is the cause of the problem and it damaged the PCM, that if they replace it and I plug it back in ... and the PCM goes out again ... then the warranty will not cover it. What they do not realize is that they'd have a huge legal battle on their hands at that point because they would have to prove it was the cause ... heh. My plan is to just leave the SG off for a few weeks after they "fix the CEL" ... if they even can.They just don't know what to do to fix the problem and they are just as frustrated as I am. I will go back to them though, they are trying to make it right. Also, they are the only GM dealer near my lake house ... so I kind of have to use them when up here. When I move back to my main house I will use a dealer down there.I have already contacted a lawyer about the possibility of lemon lawing this if it goes that far. They've had more than the 3-4 chances to repair than the law allows. I'd hate to go there because it's a drawn out PITA process, but I will if I have too.

[altimar]

Quote, originally posted by Markmysite »Ron ended our conversation with this, "Mark we will get this whole situation figured out, don't worry about it". How freaking cool is this guy?!?!?!?!?Very. Wow, awesome to see him handle the dealer for you like that. Makes me proud to own a SG (as if I didn't love it already). We need more businesses like that in this country!

[bodhi_tree777]

Out of curiousity, have they tried to scapegoat or give you grief about any of the other FE mods you've done (belly pan, grill block, etc)? Not saying those are an issue at all, but they're definitely modifications done under warranty and I thought GM was kind of pissy about that sort of thing..?

[Markmysite]

Not yet, but I keep wondering about that one. I doubt they will care about the belly pan, but I'm sure they'd say something if they notice the whole upper grill being blocked. Most people are clueless (incl. service techs) about how much overkill grills are. I thought about taking them off before taking it in, but decided not to. I'm not worried because they would have to prove that my mods directly affected the car in some way. If I overheated and blew the engine, then yes, I would be screwed I suppose. I watch my temps constantly though.

[Markmysite]

Update: Well, I called the dealer today and big surprise it's not fixed yet. I guess it wasn't the PCM afterall ... ahhh yeah I told them that already. I also emailed them a bunch of tips/posts that people on this and other forums put up (a couple from GM service techs with ideas). I hate to tell them how to do their jobs, but at this point someone has to right? Hopefully, I will get my car back sometime this month ... sigh. If not, I guess I start down the fun lemon law road.

[Markmysite]

Well, the dealer has finally figured out what the CEL was coming on from and it is fixed.... yippie. Any guesses on what it was?????............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................I'll give you a hint. It was a vacuum leak (big surprise I know). The question now is, where was the leak at?

[Herb]

Glad to hear it's fixed. Gotta love it when the dealer's service dept has to eat crow if they don't know what they're doing

[northvibe]

going to the pcv crap near the intake?hahah i bet the stealership feels stupid now blaming the scangauge on a vacuum leak lol...huh. glad its figured out though.

[ColonelPanic]

Heh, tha'ts funny! SG's cause vacuum leaks all the time man! lol!Silly dealers!

[Markmysite]

So, the cause was a vacuum leak .... in the hydro-booster (power brake booster) of all things. After spraying the entire engine to try and find the leak, they finally heard it near the brake booster. So, in this whole process my car got: - A new ScanGauge unit (and solid proof they are a great company) - 4 brand new fuel injectors- New O2 sensors- New PCM- A free cleaning of my mass air flow sensor- And a clean engine since it was fully sprayed with carb cleaner.... lol

[Herb]

Well at least the dealer learned how to diagnose the problem now. Amazing nothing they tried prior even came close.

[ClunkClunk]

Quote, originally posted by Markmysite »So, in this whole process my car got: Don't forget to add- the satisfaction of the SG/PCM not at fault- the satisfaction of SG really taking care of their customersAlways a nice bonus as well

[zionzr2]

I dont suppose there was one ioda of a hint of an appology from the dealership.

[Markmysite]

Actually, they were really cool about it all. They gave me a rental car for free and they did apologize about it taking so long.