hydrogen kit for the vibe

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by WintrSol »I'd just like to add my BS to the whole conversation. For this to work, you'd have to get more energy out of the hydrogen than you put into separating it, which is not possible. It takes more energy to separate hydrogen from water than re-combining hydrogen into water releases, because of inefficiencies in the separation process. Plus, that energy is coming from the very fuel you're trying to save. Pure junk.unless somehow the addition of small amounts of hydrogen and oxygen to the petrol/air mix increased the efficiency of the combustion enough to offset the loss for hydrolysis. however, I don't plan to do this mod to my car.

[AKLGT]

well, I can say without a doubt, these kits work. But not in the way you actually think they do. I spent a nice long chat this evening with a master electrician who is part of a world wide Hydrogen society (didn't know these existed, but why not? we have a Vibe forum...). He was telling me that the issue is not having enough power to generate Hydrogen, the point of these systems is to create enough for gasoline to burn hotter. it's not a huge amount that's needed. He took a look at my Hydro 4000 kit and showed me how to make it work better. I'm seeing an avg of about 25% increase, city or hwy. I had some issues at first, but they swapped it out under warranty and it's working a lot better. He told me he's been building kits like these for 10 yrs now, so he knows a thing or two about them. He told me that my tech, Jerry, needs to help me build a pulsator. It will draw less power from the alternator but create more power to the generator so my HHO gas is created. He also questioned the distilled water/mineral water combo the manuf of the Hydro 4000 unit requires instead of other electrolytes that work better (he says). He lots me in many places, so I tried my best to follow along. He figured out some of my wiring issues as well, since the manuf labeled the 2 wires to the sensor LED wrong. I never got them working and he was able to get that corrected. city before: 17-20 mpg (depending on if I took any drives out to the Eagle River or the hwy)city after: 21-25 mpg (depending on if I took any drives out to Eagle River or on the hwy)hwy aggressive (speeds of 80-100 mph, lots of passing and much boost) before: 22 mpghwy aggressive after (same route, 190 miles each way): 27 mpghwy hypermilling before: 27 mpg (avg speed of 60 mph on cruise)hwy hypermilling after: 28 mpg (avg speed of 60 mph on cruise)On my car and without any tuning or adjustments what so ever, my conclusions of running this particular system for the past 3 weeks is that YES, it does work. However, it works better for longer drives, not short ones. The water needs to be able to boil so the Hydrogen gas is created. When I'm driving 5-10 minute spurts, I find I get closer to 21 mpg vs when I'm driving 10-30 minute spurts where I'm getting 25 mpg CITY. What really did it for me was my 190 mile drive out to Soldotna, just like I had before the install, passing cars as much as I could, foot to the floor, 100+ mph up hills in passing lanes to get infront of the 10 campers and trailers.... 27 mpg!!! that's a huge improvement from my 22 mpg doing the same thing on the same road 2 weeks prior!

[rekline]

May i ask what vehicle you have this on? I see no cars on your list that should be getting this poor mileage even stock! If this hho is on your vibe & your not getting 35+ you have nothing to boast about but are probably needing to shut her down until you get control of your afr sensor. 23mpg is what mine dropped to w/ hho on. & no afr mode. 30mpg is norm.rickP.S. Your vibe does not have an o-2 sensor/it has whats called an afr sensor which actually operates totally different from o-2 sensors. 0-2 sensors are voltage based ----toyota/vibe...based afr sensors aer current based ...voltage adjustments from any form of controller won't help lean your air /fuel ratio----no mpg gain w/ hho until you can cause the afr to lean. here is a link to a forum that is working on this problem. http://www.fuel-saver.org/Foru...=1128

[AKLGT]

look at the picture in my signature. read the list of cars in my signature. Does the Vibe come standard with a min of 250 HP AWD??? No. Does it come with 300 or 306 HP AWD?? No. I have 3 2.5L Turbocharged Subaru Boxer engines that are AWD and produce a min of 250 hp/tq. These are PERFORMANCE cars, not econo boxes. I had 2 of those before and they were traded in for something a little more suitable for tracking. Having AWD and a Turbo do not make for the best fuel economy. Avg city on the LGT and 07 STI is 17-19 mpg and hwy about 24 mpg. On the LGT, I can get up to 28 mpg hwy, but maybe only 26 on the 07 STI. On the 08 STI I avg 20-23 mpg city and 26-30 hwy. That is hypermilling and driving in 6th majority of the time, coasting as much as possible etc.For reference: on my 03 Pontiac Vibe GT, I avg 24-26 mpg CITY and about 26-28 hwy. That was with a little rattling econo box with 180 hp/130 ft-lbs tq FWD vs if I can accomplish those same numbers on a much much more powerful and AWD vehicle. On our 04 Pontiac Vibe base 5MT, we got great fuel economy, closer to 26-28 city and about 35+ hwy. It was Canadian so it read in metric. I never felt the need to convert the numbers, so can't give you exact figures.Obviously, the point of the HHO experiment is for me to be able to A. see if these kits actually workB. get better fuel economy on my performance vehicles since they are also my daily driversC. Help my friend out who has a dealership for the kits

[joatmon]

for what it's worth, according to fueleconomy.gov, a 2005 legacy GT is rated at 17 city 23 highway

[rekline]

woops! Put me in my place, and rightly so. I should have read more of the thread & your posts, before spouting off.If I may, w/out putting my foot in my mouth again... I tryed baking soda, sodium hydrox.,Distilled white vinegar, & potasium hydrox. while unit was on bench in testing phase, I settled on Pot. Hydrox. it made more gas per amp & much less water discoloration which is less electrode breakdown. HHo does work! It works on my wifes vibe but haven't solved afr sensor roadblock. Have read that during the electrolysis +plate makes hyd.gas - plate oxy./{or vice versa}. Next unit I build for 446ci deisel I will exsperiment with using plate setup that will make more hyd. & less oxy. Glad to hear its working good for you!rick

[AKLGT]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »for what it's worth, according to fueleconomy.gov, a 2005 legacy GT is rated at 17 city 23 highwayya I know. which is why I'm happy to see 23 and 24 mpg CITY for the first time!

[AKLGT]

Quote, originally posted by rekline »woops! Put me in my place, and rightly so. I should have read more of the thread & your posts, before spouting off.If I may, w/out putting my foot in my mouth again... I tryed baking soda, sodium hydrox.,Distilled white vinegar, & potasium hydrox. while unit was on bench in testing phase, I settled on Pot. Hydrox. it made more gas per amp & much less water discoloration which is less electrode breakdown. HHo does work! It works on my wifes vibe but haven't solved afr sensor roadblock. Have read that during the electrolysis +plate makes hyd.gas - plate oxy./{or vice versa}. Next unit I build for 446ci deisel I will exsperiment with using plate setup that will make more hyd. & less oxy. Glad to hear its working good for you!rickLOL. sorry... perhaps my reply was more harsh than it should have been. Where are you placing the hose into the intake? before or after the MAF? They suggest you place it after the MAF to help reduce any issues. Now, as for tuning, not sure how you can do that on the Vibe these days since there's no real open source tuning that will allow you to make adjustments yourself. Again, still after 5 yrs, not much a/m support when it comes to tuning these cars.I'm using a mixture of mineral and distilled water. it makes it nasty gunky brown.... GROSS!!! but it seems to work. I'm hoping to fix the few little wiring bits tonight and take it out for a nice drive. weather is gorgeous outside and I want to take advantage!

[rekline]

Glad to hear back from you, thought i might have really ticked you off! Nobody likes someone coming halfcocked & criticizing their hard work & accomplishments.I put the HHO in after the iat/maf sensors which is all one nice little unit on top of the intake air box. Nobody told me to but it just seemed to make sense to stay away from those 2 sensors.The tuning issues are down to only the afr sensor , have maf controled well w/a pot in series, iat w/ soldered in resistor in parralel, ect w/soldered in resistor which if i were doing the ect over agian i would use a 5kohm pot instead, the elect. fan comes on just a little more often than it should & a small tweek in an adjustable pot would solve that quickly, will put one in place of resistor later on.the afr is close to being solved {i hope} now that i know it is current based rather than voltage based in its input to pcm. Am doing some reference current testing, then will build adjustable pots for each of the low signal & high signal wires from the afr to the pcm. when these are in place the afr low/high signal wires will be disconnected from sensor, pots will be set to send idle current input to pcm all the time. If this creates other errors time will tell. I have not tryed mineral water, but the least discoloration you can get in the water is best... the brown gunk is mostly electrode breakdown. As i said i found pot. hydrox. seemed best to me. & i run at 15 to 20 amps. Have a nice drive tonight, weather here to be 100* today w/humidity in the mid. 50% range. rick

[AKLGT]

hmm. what are you using again? The water is some NASTY brown gunk... yuck!and the drive proved my point once again.... 27.6 mpg including the 1 hr of idling from yesterday and about 30 mins today finishing up the wiring. I think that's pretty darn good! I'm sure it could be a lot better, but not this system on my car. Next set up will be my friend's system he is building for me (prototype so we can put it out to market) that will be going on the new 08 STI.

[WintrSol]

Not to be rude but "C. Help my friend out who has a dealership for the kits".

[AKLGT]

Quote, originally posted by WintrSol »Not to be rude but "C. Help my friend out who has a dealership for the kits".and not to be rude back, but so what? She needed some test vehicles to show if this worked or not. I said I would do it and gave her my $1200 for the kit and had my tech friend help me install it. Is that a problem??You can read more about it here:http://forums.nasioc.com/forum...40812