break in oil

willysr · Post by **willysr** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 am

I have a new 09 with the 2.4 has anyone heard of the so called break in oil and if so should it be treated the same way a normal change is at 3,000 miles also 5w20 sounds fairly thin but I guess min. tolorances.p.s. an a1 site.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:52 am

Who is recommending 5w20?

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:01 pm

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»Who is recommending 5w20?Toyotaper TSB EG018-06 this also applies to our older 1zz-fe engines.

djb383 · Post by **djb383** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:07 pm

'Break-in' oil is a myth. What's put in at the factory is the same oil you get at the parts store.

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:20 pm

Quote, originally posted by djb383 Â»'Break-in' oil is a myth. What's put in at the factory is the same oil you get at the parts store.The oil may be the same, but I think when it's referred to "break in" oil, they are referencing the interval of change... Like change it the first time at 1500mi instead of 3000mi.. I could be wrong, but that is how I would interpret it..

ToolGuy · Post by **ToolGuy** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:10 am

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind Â»The oil may be the same, but I think when it's referred to "break in" oil, they are referencing the interval of change... Like change it the first time at 1500mi instead of 3000mi.. I could be wrong, but that is how I would interpret it.. Yes this is what I have heard and practiced. Break in is not the oil but the "Engine Break In" period thus its break in oil if you want to call it that. The time when all the engine parts mesh together. You do not want to keep this oil in the engine for the normal change interval. And it should be changed out sooner.During this time any little metal shavings from the parts castings can be dislodged and collected. The longer you leave it in, the more time the metal pieces and some are so small you cannot really see, will be floating around in the oil. Kind of like a bonding period for all the engine parts! And use the oil that is stated on the engine and or in the owners manual.

Yury · Post by **Yury** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:23 am

I don't know about the Vibe, but in my Accord there was 'break-in' oil that contained some additives and Honda specifically recommended not to do the first oil change BEFORE the oil life dropped to 15%.

2009GT · Post by **2009GT** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:31 am

Sounds like a myth to me, I've never heard of such, who here had ever changed their first oil change before 3000?

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:38 am

during break in, its not a bad idea to get the oil changed at 1500 miles instead of 3000. but there is no "special" oil.

ToolGuy · Post by **ToolGuy** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:36 am

Quote, originally posted by 2009GT Â»Sounds like a myth to me, I've never heard of such, who here had ever changed their first oil change before 3000?I do! 1,500 miles and it comes out of there for the reasons I stated above. This is the way I maintain all of my rides, leased or not.

ToolGuy · Post by **ToolGuy** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:38 am

Quote, originally posted by Yury Â»I don't know about the Vibe, but in my Accord there was 'break-in' oil that contained some additives and Honda specifically recommended not to do the first oil change BEFORE the oil life dropped to 15%.I do not doubt you but I have never heard of this kind of oil. I am mostly talking American cars myself and of course the Vibe but Honda or other Jap car manf do things differently sometimes.

djb383 · Post by **djb383** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:48 am

I've always changed the oil and filter in a 'new' engine at the first 250-500 miles, due to the extra metal that sluffs off new engine parts/surfaces. An early $25 oil & filter change on your $25000 + car.......sounds like cheap insurance to me.

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:04 am

Quote, originally posted by djb383 Â»I've always changed the oil and filter in a 'new' engine at the first 250-500 miles, due to the extra metal that sluffs off new engine parts/surfaces. An early $25 oil & filter change on your $25000 + car.......sounds like cheap insurance to me. Amen...

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:07 am

Quote, originally posted by willysr Â»also 5w20 sounds fairly thin but I guess min. tolorances.p.s. an a1 site.You live in a fairly cool climate correct? That is prolly why the 5w20 is recomended.. the 5, keeps it "thin" for cold start up and the 20, keeps it thin, because it's typically cool in your area... ? Yes? I run EDIT : 0w30 NOT 50, I was mistaken (German Castrol synth) in my Subaru... Thin thin at startup and keeps it's cool under high boost/heat conditions.. and a somewhat warmer climate..

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:33 am

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind Â»You live in a fairly cool climate correct? That is prolly why the 5w20 is recomended.. the 5, keeps it "thin" for cold start up and the 20, keeps it thin, because it's typically cool in your area... ? Yes? Eh, sort of. The W represents "winter weight," so at 0Ã‚Â°F, a 5W oil flows as an equivalent 5 "hot" weight oil. But at summer/hot engine temperatures, 210Ã‚Â°F, a 20 oil is just that, a 20. To put a -20 oil weight in vs. a -30 oil weight in most cases has nothing to do with climate, but rather, engine design and manufacturer recommendation. I guess what I'm saying is putting a 5W-20 in vs. a 5W-30 doesn't matter in terms of "typical" coolness. The startup viscosity is the first number, the at-temp viscosity is the second number. So if you lived in the arctic, putting a 0W-30 in vs a 0W-20 wouldn't be climate dependent, but rather engine dependent. A 20 weight oil is too thin for some engines and an oil that is TOO thin can be bad for an engine because the oil will "run out" of higher areas in the block instead of moving steadily with the rest of the oil flow.Have I confused anyone yet? lol!

djb383 · Post by **djb383** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:18 am

Some good reading......long but good.http://www.toyotatundraforum.c....html

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:04 am

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind Â»You live in a fairly cool climate correct? That is prolly why the 5w20 is recomended.. the 5, keeps it "thin" for cold start up and the 20, keeps it thin, because it's typically cool in your area... ? Yes? I run 0w50 (German Castrol synth) in my Subaru... No, 5W-20 is Toyota's current recommendation for all climates. And with modern cooling systems in good condition there shouldn't be much variation of the normal engine operating temperature with changing ambient air temperature anyway. A synthetic 0W-20 should also be fine, and preferred for very cold climates, since it has the same viscosity as the 5W-20 when at normal operating temperature, but will flow better when the car is first started.I believe Subaru still calls for somewhat higher viscosity oils and there may be some engine design reasons for that (such as bearing clearances). But I wouldn't use a Subaru recommendation to determine the best oil grade to use in a Toyota engine.

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:03 am

Quote, originally posted by prathman Â»No, 5W-20 is Toyota's current recommendation for all climates. And with modern cooling systems in good condition there shouldn't be much variation of the normal engine operating temperature with changing ambient air temperature anyway. A synthetic 0W-20 should also be fine, and preferred for very cold climates, since it has the same viscosity as the 5W-20 when at normal operating temperature, but will flow better when the car is first started.I believe Subaru still calls for somewhat higher viscosity oils and there may be some engine design reasons for that (such as bearing clearances). But I wouldn't use a Subaru recommendation to determine the best oil grade to use in a Toyota engine.No, I agree 100%, just because most of my knowledge comes from the Subaru community, doesn't mean it automatically crosses over, and I always point out when I'm using my "Subie Knowledge" lol... I run EDIT : 0w30 (I was mistaken on my viscosity)because of the high boost and the need to keep the oil in the bearings under said boost... and because of 100% German made/blended components, it's well known on the Subaru forums that this DOES make a difference as the TUV standards are higher than ours.. this of course after many many Blackstone labs analysis's

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:04 am

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish Â»Eh, sort of. The W represents "winter weight," so at 0Ã‚Â°F, a 5W oil flows as an equivalent 5 "hot" weight oil. But at summer/hot engine temperatures, 210Ã‚Â°F, a 20 oil is just that, a 20. To put a -20 oil weight in vs. a -30 oil weight in most cases has nothing to do with climate, but rather, engine design and manufacturer recommendation. I guess what I'm saying is putting a 5W-20 in vs. a 5W-30 doesn't matter in terms of "typical" coolness. The startup viscosity is the first number, the at-temp viscosity is the second number. So if you lived in the arctic, putting a 0W-30 in vs a 0W-20 wouldn't be climate dependent, but rather engine dependent. A 20 weight oil is too thin for some engines and an oil that is TOO thin can be bad for an engine because the oil will "run out" of higher areas in the block instead of moving steadily with the rest of the oil flow.Have I confused anyone yet? lol! Not confused at all, in fact, you helped me clear up some "gray area" thanks... lol..

engineertwin2 · Post by **engineertwin2** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:12 am

Quote, originally posted by 2009GT Â»Sounds like a myth to me, I've never heard of such, who here had ever changed their first oil change before 3000?I replaced my engine oil at the first chance I got. It had 315 miles on it when I bought it and about 500 miles when I first changed the oil.Historically, my new cars have gotten oil changes at 1,000 miles. This is pretty consistent (1,000-1,500 miles) amongst my friends as well (BMWs, Mini's, Hondas, Toyotas, Fords, Subies, etc).

2009GT · Post by **2009GT** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:52 am

Just read my owners manual and the 1st oil change is at 5000, so I'm gonna go with the car manufacturer on this.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:54 am

Quote, originally posted by 2009GT Â»Sounds like a myth to me, I've never heard of such, who here had ever changed their first oil change before 3000?I did my first oil change at 1000miles.

2009GT · Post by **2009GT** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:01 am

I suppose your manual told you this??

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:11 am

Quote, originally posted by 2009GT Â»I suppose your manual told you this??AIRC, owners manuals used to make a recommendation for an early first oil change - about 40 years ago. My understanding is that manufacturing processes and tolerances have improved over time and this is no longer needed. Nor is it recommended by most (all?) car makers.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:03 am

Quote, originally posted by 2009GT Â»I suppose your manual told you this??no, My car was sitting on the lot for the entire year, bought it at the end of 06 and the car already had over 100miles on it. I don't know about you, but when I test drive a car, I beat the SNOT out of it. Redline every gear. Besides that, the recommended rate to change the oil is 6months or 3,000mile typically.so the oil was in the car longer than six months.

djb383 · Post by **djb383** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:39 am

I don't think anyone here is saying an early oil change is required/needed.......but it doesn't hurt anything either. The factory fill will have more metal particles circulating than any of the next oil changes.

VivaVibe · Post by **VivaVibe** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:29 am

Quote, originally posted by 2009GT Â»Just read my owners manual and the 1st oil change is at 5000, so I'm gonna go with the car manufacturer on this.Unbelievable! Saving $40 on the first oil change of a brand new $20,000 car. Penny wise and pound foolish. I don't care what the manual says, or how much better machining is, I would do the first change no later than 1,000 miles. Better safe than sorry.

engineertwin2 · Post by **engineertwin2** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:17 pm

Changing the oil more frequently than the norm doesn't hurt a thing (other than your wallet on occasion), but most burring and engine shaving occurs in that first start up. If you could swap oil afterwards, you'd be solid gold.And as keithvibe pointed out, a lot of cars may sit on the lot for awhile. That in and of itself warrants a change. Mine sat on the lot for at least 6 months (bought my '04 at the end of April '05 new on the lot).

rekline · Post by **rekline** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:12 pm

I've always done the first oil change at 1000mi, not for any other reason than being a perfectionest {not saying thats good}. You will find microscopic metal in the drained oil by collecting it with a strong magnet, thats the normal seating in remains. Whatever you decide on your first interval if you want to run the best syn.oil w/longest history & documentation i recommend...http://www.amsoil.com/company.aspxrick

Nelson · Post by **Nelson** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:01 pm

I did my first vibe @ 1000km and intend on doing this current vibe also at 1000km.

vibedrivermatt · Post by **vibedrivermatt** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:30 am

This is exactly what I thought. My new vibe had 1648 miles on it and I wanted to do an oil change. I called the dealership and talked to one of the techs. He said changing the oil early was not a needed. He even said the oil needs time to break in..huh? Im not sure what he meant by that. Now my car has almost 2000 miles of pretty hard highway and freeway miles. Im wondering if I should ignore the tech at the dealership and change the oil as soon a possible. I also wanted to use synthetic like mobil1, perhaps put it in when it gets 3000 or 4000 miles on it. The dealer also said this was not needed and that conventional oil is what is recommended for the car. Any suggestions? I kinda want to think that these people know how to tell how to take care of the car. I've never had a car this new before so i dunno.

djb383 · Post by **djb383** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:01 pm

Run as fast as you can from that tech.

The Lox · Post by **The Lox** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:44 pm

Guys - We aren't talking about race motors or reproduction motors here. There is NO reason to change the oil that early on a brand new factory engine. If there was, GM wou certainly recommend it. They are giving you 100k miles worry free, so if they were really trying to protect that investment, and its sooooooo much better to change it early, then don't you think they would put it in the service schedule?This is the same myth that you shouldn't drive hard on a new motor, which is complete bull. There are tons of engine builders that will tell you to fill it with oil, let it idle up to operating temp, and then drive it like you are going to drive it all the time.

vibedrivermatt · Post by **vibedrivermatt** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:14 pm

Yeah right I can see the logic in that. Its easy for me to freak out about this car because its so new. Still not over my fear of dings. Im doing the first change at 3000. Just wish I could get a honest take on putting synthetic in the vibe engine from a GM tech. They want to sell me this oil change for life deal that costs $149. The oil is conventional so Im unsure if I want that. Mobil1 has to be better than that conventional stuff right? or is it these new engines cant tell the difference?

ToolGuy · Post by **ToolGuy** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:31 pm

Quote, originally posted by vibedrivermatt Â» The oil is conventional so Im unsure if I want that. Mobil1 has to be better than that conventional stuff right? or is it these new engines cant tell the difference? Conventional would be just fine. However to answer your question, Synthetic is better than conventional. The parts of an engine can tell a difference only in the long run. The parts wear less and provide less friction. Syn oil can also increase HP but not to the point that you will feel it. A Dyno could detect it but the average person no. Mobil1 is recommended by GM in my Corvettes engine and is factory filled with it. I only use it myself in that car and have also put in Mobil1 syn transmission fluid. There are many syn oils to pick from though, I use Mobil1 for its reputation and is easy to be bought.

vibedrivermatt · Post by **vibedrivermatt** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:50 am

Well to answer willysr's ques, I just called the parts dept at the dealer. They said the correct weight for the new 2.4 is 5w30. I kinda want to double check that because I forgot to tell him I bought the 2009 but, I assume he knew this. I also asked If they would put mobil1 in the car for me they said sure this time. The guy who told me conventional oil is recommended wasn't a tech but a finance guy. He was trying to sell me the conventional oil change for life deal which wasn't that bad for $149. Im still going to use synthetic after the engine gets a little more mileage. Im not sure how much yet but, maybe 4000 or 6000k?

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:12 am

Quote, originally posted by vibedrivermatt Â»Well to answer willysr's ques, I just called the parts dept at the dealer. They said the correct weight for the new 2.4 is 5w30.You should find an Owners Manual in your glovebox. Turn to page 9-10 and you'll find the statement: "SAE 5W-20 is best for the vehicle." On the next page it modifies that slightly to recommend 0W-20 in areas with particularly cold temperatures (-30F or lower). I'd go with that over the statement of some guy in the parts department unless he can show you documentation that the manufacturer has since changed their recommendation. But from a practical standpoint it's not likely to make any difference. The car should run fine and be reliable using either the 20 or 30 weight oil.

djb383 · Post by **djb383** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:31 am

Like I posted earlier......no, you're not required to change oil early but that first fill of oil in that new engine will have more metal circulating/suspended than any of the next oil fills. It's pure myth regarding not using synthetic oil in a new engine. Google 'synthetic oil myths'. 0W20 will always provide lubrication quicker than 5W20 when oil temps are less than normal. 0W20 is only available in synthetic while 5W20 is available in both. The most important number is the first, not the second, as most wear occurs at start-up when oil temps are lower than normal operating temps. http://www.nwfjcc.com/FJ%20Tech/eg018t0 ... tmlThere's only one "engine builder" out there that warrants you engine for 100K miles and guess what..........they DON'T recommend you "break it in hard".

vibedrivermatt · Post by **vibedrivermatt** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:59 am

Yup found it, my mistake. It says 5w20 in the manual , guess thats the way to go. Maybe I should read that thing.. Hey I was just reading some interesting things about oil viscosity in the new january road and track mag. It turns out theres a trend among auto makers to put thinner lubricants in their cars to maximize fuel economy. Thinner oil moves around the engine more easily thus increasing fuel economy. It also said that Mobil1 advanced fuel economy 0w-20 could be a substitute for conventional 5w-20. I won't explain it all but it was pretty interesting. If people want to know more about this they should google it.

SkyVibe · Post by **SkyVibe** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:59 am

Count me in on the early oil change on a new vehicle. Just dropped the oil and filter at about 700 miles on my son's 09 2.4L...very close inspection revealed some very fine metallic "dust" in the oil. I've noticed some of that on EVERY vehicle I've ever had, boat motor, car, truck, motorcycle, lawn mower, you name it. After a change or two this is never seen again, unless there is a problem developing. Personally I don't want that crap circulating in the engine any longer than absolutely necessary.

djb383 · Post by **djb383** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:14 pm

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:45 am

Quote, originally posted by vibedrivermatt Â»This is exactly what I thought. My new vibe had 1648 miles on it and I wanted to do an oil change. I called the dealership and talked to one of the techs. He said changing the oil early was not a needed. He even said the oil needs time to break in..huh? Im not sure what he meant by that. Now my car has almost 2000 miles of pretty hard highway and freeway miles. Im wondering if I should ignore the tech at the dealership and change the oil as soon a possible. I also wanted to use synthetic like mobil1, perhaps put it in when it gets 3000 or 4000 miles on it. The dealer also said this was not needed and that conventional oil is what is recommended for the car. Any suggestions? I kinda want to think that these people know how to tell how to take care of the car. I've never had a car this new before so i dunno.Personally, I would wait on swapping over to synth till about 10kmi(3rd oil change)... and the reasoning behind this is that even though the car is out of the "break-in" peroid, there is STILL mating of the rings to the cylinder walls in the motor... a synth oil could possibly slow or stop this from happening... Now, before you guys jump on me about the above statement with "X-company uses synth from the factory" That is true, but those companies most likely do a break in proceedure AT the factory, prior to shipping the motors or installing them.. I've known subaru people that have opened motors with 30k+ on them and found hashmarks from the cylinder honing still visable.. I know this isn't a Subaru, BUT, it's not going to hurt to hear it... To be perfectly honest, I don't feel the Vibe even needs to run synth, just like whomever at the dealer stated, it's not a "high performance" motor, it's not running boost of any sort, it's pretty much a waste of money... If it were turboed or S/C'ed that would be a different story, there is a lot more stress on bearing surfaces in FI motors... not in N/A motors though..

SkyVibe · Post by **SkyVibe** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:52 am

"I've known subaru people that have opened motors with 30k+ on them and found hashmarks from the cylinder honing still visable.. I know this isn't a Subaru, BUT, it's not going to hurt to hear it... "I should HOPE so! If the honing marks are gone the motor needs a rebuild...I opened a Mazda B2200 1988 with 225,000 miles and the honing was in perfect shape! Only reason I went into it was because it was overheated when a hose blew, warping the head. That motor was in great shape, would have gone another 225,000 if it hadn't got wrecked later

djb383 · Post by **djb383** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:33 am

+1 .

vibedrivermatt · Post by **vibedrivermatt** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:26 am

I agree the vibe does not have a high performance motor but I don't know if I agree with your opinion about oil there. You dont think the 2.4 liter with 158hp has a significant amount of power to use synthetic? Its a small high revving four banger. I know a lot of car guys who insist on using synthetic in their four bangers that have less hp than the 2.4 vibe. Do you use synthetic in your vibe Sublimewind? How much hp do you think your vibe makes? What about the subaru people with 30000+k on their engines that were in great shape? What kind of oil were they using? If they had regular subi boxer motors (not higher strung WRX Motor) then according to you they should run conventional.

rdnzl · Post by **rdnzl** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:56 am

Do what the manual says.Use what the manual says.Like somebody said, they are offering a 100,000 mile warranty. It would be stupid for GM to advise you to do or use something that would invite a warranty claim.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:07 am

Quote, originally posted by rdnzl Â»Do what the manual says.Use what the manual says.Like somebody said, they are offering a 100,000 mile warranty. It would be stupid for GM to advise you to do or use something that would invite a warranty claim.on 07-09 they offer that .. but my 06 is the standard 3-36

djb383 · Post by **djb383** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:30 am

The last time I looked, 130HP from 109CID was high performance. It doesn't feel like it because the Vibe is so heavy. I hope GM/'yota doesn't find out I changed my oil early and void my warranty. LOL

vibedrivermatt · Post by **vibedrivermatt** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:43 am

Hey as long as you used the same kind of oil filter they'll never know. Im trying to figure out how to put synthetic in my my vibe without voiding the warranty. I mean Id would prefer to do it myself but that means gm wont be doing the changes. Maybe as long as I prove the oil was changed with receipts for oil or something that would work. I have to find out the terms of the warranty.

rdnzl · Post by **rdnzl** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:58 am

Todays oils are pretty high tech compared to your grandfathers oil.Any name brand oil, of the proper weight, changed regularly per the manufacturers instructions, is all you need for every day driving.BUT.....if you want to change oil every other day, it really doesn't hurt anything.