need new engine after 130,000km???

[cds22]

I have a 2003 Vibe. About 18 months ago the engine started making a ticking noise, particularly when it was cold outside. Shortly after that the engine light came on. Took it to a dealer who said they didn't know why the engine light was on and didn't think there was anything wrong. The car had about 120,000km on it then. Noise stayed about the same over the winter and actually got better when it warmed up in the summer. But this past winter it got worse again. Over time the engine light has come on and off a few times, apparently randomly. It also started burning oil. Took it to two different GM dealers, both took 1/2 day to look at it then told me the only way to diagnose the problem was to take out the engine (at a cost of about $2000 just to have a look, not to fix what they found). Yesterday I took it to a trusted independent garage and was told that the noise is coming from 'deep in the engine' and that it almost certainly needs an entirely new engine. The mechanic got a quote for a 'GM service engine' (basically a rebuilt but with a 3 year warranty) for $10,000 - not including plugs, oil, installation, etc.! He also got a quote on the value of the car.... $8000 - $9000 (if the engine was good!). He is still waiting for a quote on a non-GM rebuilt engine (i.e. no warranty on that type of engine) but estimated it would be $4000 or so. I should note that this car has been very well maintained to date. It has had all required services, oil changes every 5000km, etc. So, now I have a car that is 5 years old, has only 130,000km on it and needs somewhere between $4000 and $11,000 for a new engine! That seems pretty ridiculous to me. If I try to trade it in I suspect I'd only get maybe $2000 - $3000(?) for it given it needs a new engine. This is the first domestic car I've purchased and it will definitely be the last. Since it's off warranty I'm not sure what to do, any suggestions?

[joatmon]

That's bad news. If it were me, I'd look at getting an engine out of a wreck from a junkyard. Some yards will even install it for you.Quote, originally posted by cds22 » This is the first domestic car I've purchased and it will definitely be the last. Sorry, but that is bass ackwards. It is Toyota's engine that proved unreliable. Keep that in mind when cursing domestic brands

[northvibe]

I would go to a local auto parts store and have them pull the CEL code. That should tell you something, those GM dealers if they cant find out what that code says...are well kinda dumb. The engine ticks normally and mine was louder when it was colder out. but not hearing yours i cant say if its the "normal" tick. go get the code pulled write it down and post it up. we'll help ya out.

[Kamikaze]

That's the first I heard about a bad Toyota 1ZZ motor @ 130k km...Seems ridicously high $$ for the quotes on motors...You should be able to get your's rebuilt for about $3k or less.I had a motor rebuild on my Mitsubishi Eclipse, was about $3k and that was a 2.0 DOHC... can't see a 1ZZ running more than $2500 USD to fix.

[cds22]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »Sorry, but that is bass ackwards. It is Toyota's engine that proved unreliable. Keep that in mind when cursing domestic brandsSorry if the 'domestic' comment sounds unjustified, it's probably just the frustration speaking. But I have previously owned 5 Toyotas and 1 Honda and never had problems with any of them. The fact that the Vibe was partly a Toyota product is what convinced me to buy a Pontiac in the first place. Just seems suspicious that this is the only one that caused me problems (had up to 400,000km on some of the others). And this isn't the only significant problem I've had with this car, previously had the catalytic converter and preconverter replaced (thankfully under warranty). Is the Vibeengine truly a Toyota with no alterations by GM? If so, then perhaps Toyota's quality is slipping with their increase in market share.

[northvibe]

Quote, originally posted by cds22 » Sorry if the 'domestic' comment sounds unjustified, it's probably just the frustration speaking. But I have previously owned 5 Toyotas and 1 Honda and never had problems with any of them. The fact that the Vibe was partly a Toyota product is what convinced me to buy a Pontiac in the first place. Just seems suspicious that this is the only one that caused me problems (had up to 400,000km on some of the others). And this isn't the only significant problem I've had with this car, previously had the catalytic converter and preconverter replaced (thankfully under warranty). Is the Vibeengine truly a Toyota with no alterations by GM? If so, then perhaps Toyota's quality is slipping with their increase in market share.Yup the drive train, engine and all is a corolla. I'm not trying to be a (removed), but just because you had issues does not mean its wide spread. there have been a couple vibes on the site with endless issues but more than not they have been more than reliable for the rest. My old vibe (sister has it now) has 80k miles with out 1 issue since purchase. I've had ford's go to 130k then i sold them with no major issues what so ever. its really luck when you get a car, i mean its amazing they can go so long with so many moving parts to begin with. But can you get that CEL pulled at a auto parts store, and post that code. with the code we can find out what part is throwing a error and try to help ya.

[cds22]

Quote, originally posted by northvibe »I would go to a local auto parts store and have them pull the CEL code. That should tell you something, those GM dealers if they cant find out what that code says...are well kinda dumb. The engine ticks normally and mine was louder when it was colder out. but not hearing yours i cant say if its the "normal" tick. go get the code pulled write it down and post it up. we'll help ya out.The dealers who have looked at it say the computer diagnostic isn't helping them. Unfortunately I live in a small town so I doubt the local parts store could get that code but I'll definitely check into it, thanks for the tip! My noise is definitely not 'normal', anyone who rides in it notices it. An now it's started puffing out blue smoke when it starts up. The recent mechanic told me that replacing the head gasket *might* solve a little bit of that but it wouldn't resolve the engine issue so he didn't think it was worth doing on it's own.

[northvibe]

uhh hey check something for me. Go check your dip stick to see what the oil looks like. Is the oil milky, white, bubbly and/or have separation like theres 2 different liquids in it?Otherwise yeah sounds like theres a head gasket or block crack thats allowing coolant into the cylinder...not usually a good sign.

[joholste]

If you do have to replace the engine...I would look into http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com . They have engines that have stronger parts and what not and i don't think even they are that much....My internet is so slow right now i can't open up the web page to check.

[cds22]

[QUOTE=northvibe]Go check your dip stick to see what the oil looks like. Is the oil milky, white, bubbly and/or have separation like theres 2 different liquids in it?QUOTE]I've checked the dip stick LOTS over the past few months as I frequently have to add oil. It never looked unusual to me, none of the attributes you mentioned. And the mechanic who did the oil change yesterday never mentioned anything about the oil having unusual properties.

[ToolGuy]

Def have the code pulled... The dealers need to tell you what it is even if "it is not helping them". And the computer will only tell the dealer limited info on engine running status, more would be told if there is a code. However if the dealer sat in the car with it running and ran some tests with the Tech2 diagnostic tool, the tech could put the engine though tests and monitor the engine. The bad part is they do not get paid to do this thus it will not be done unless they are. And dealers have a way to pull the plugs out and look inside each cylinder using a Borescope. That is the easiest way to tell the cylinder and piston condition. That is if one takes the time to do this as diagnosis.If it is puffing smoke now that is not good but possibly you only need the upper half of the engine rebuilt or a short block.

[altimar]

What do you guys think about taking it to a toyota dealer? My experience has been that Pontiac dealers don't know how to/don't want to fix a toyota car. And we all know that GM charges twice as much for the same parts as toyota does.

[northvibe]

from what ive heard, they wont want to look at a vibe..if they do you have to pay them.... so depends on what you are asking them to do....

[cds22]

I had previously tried to have service done by Toyota and they refused. However, the car was still under warranty at the time, which I seem to remember was the sticking point. Perhaps now that it's off warranty they will be willing to give it a try. Thanks for the thought, I'll give them a call. Unfortunately the nearest Toyota dealer is 400km away.

[trb]

If it were me, since it is our of warranty, I would look into a used engine from a salvage yard if a rebuilt one is not economically possible. I looked on http://www.car-part.com , one of my favorite sources for parts a good prices, and there are several engines from Canadian yards for $700-$1,800 CN. It shouldn't cost you more than several hundred and certainly less than $1,000 to have your small shop swap it over. Just another thing to consider before shelling out the dough at a stealership.This is one reason I LIKE my Mustang. A rebuilt engine is relatively CHEAP and used ones can be had for less than $500 that are still going strong!Good luck on getting it fixed!

[ToolGuy]

Quote, originally posted by altimar »What do you guys think about taking it to a toyota dealer? My experience has been that Pontiac dealers don't know how to/don't want to fix a toyota car. And we all know that GM charges twice as much for the same parts as toyota does. Honestly if you have encountered this you are going to a poor dealer...The Vibe engine and internal are no different than any other internal combustible engine out there. And GM mechanics are trained and can train on new models before they hit the streets if needed. The Vibe just because it has Toyota parts is nothing special. It is the same situation as the Chevrolet Aveo and other joint venture vehicles out there i.e. Geo Trackers, Pontiac GTO's or G8's which are GM Australia. GM dealers want to or have to fix these joint venture vehicles. The GM warranty system supports it so why would a GM dealer not want to fix one? A GM dealer gets paid for it if it is a Corvette or a Vibe, no different. My company writes all the GM service manuals for the electronics and wiring sections Vibe, G8, Corvette, Cobalt, all the done the same way. We also do all the special service tools...I am not trying to be rude here just stating facts.

[w8_4_me]

Not trying to create waves here...but there is NO WAY that engine is that much. I'd think twice about that mechanic.

[Blast Chamber]

I was going to suggest having a Used Oil Analysis done, but since you just had the oil changed the results may not be as valuable as they could have been. It's amazing what these tests can reveal by determining what metals are at higher than normal levels, and it might point you in the right direction as to what needs repair (bearings, head gasket, etc). For $30US I would give still it a shot even with the new oil. http://www.blackstone-labs.com....html

[cds22]

Well we have managed to locate a couple of engines from wreckers, cost around $1800 for the engine, around $2200 for installation. My husband and father were thinking of doing the install themselves. So, I have a couple of questions for you guys.....1) Is it reasonable for a couple of guys with a fair bit of mechanical experience (my dad used to be a mechanic way back when) and the right tools to do the installation themselves or could they be kidding themselves?2) Thanks to genvibers I've located a couple of service manuals. One on Helminc.com for $135 (2003 Pontiac Vibe S-Platform Service Manual), one on books4cars.com for $159.95 (2003 Vibe Shop Service Repair Manual Set by Pontiac (B03_GMP03S)). Any recommendation for which might be better or are they just two prices for the same thing?3) I asked a mechanic whether or not the two engines I found would work in my 2003 Vibe AWD and he said yes. But I figured it couldn't hurt to get a second opinion from the genvibe 'experts'! The first engine is from a 2006 Vibe: AWD, 1.8L, 185-190ACR, Oil 50, 16,560km, Stock#LL7969, D&M Auto Recycling, Lumby BC. The second one is also from a 2006 Vibe, 1.9L, auto, AC, not E run, 87,000km, stock #3800, Langley Discount, Langley, BC. Would either/both of these engines work in my Vibe?Any advice would be much appreciated.

[damronjr]

I snapped a rod, found an engine with 20k mi on it at a junk yard in a side-swiped Corolla, bought it for $900 for just the block, brought it home, swapped out all the parts from the old engine myelf, put it all together myself, swapped the motors myself, and have been good since! Check your local yards for any 1zz Corolla, Matrix, Vibe, MRS.

[prathman]

In response to your questions:1) I would say yes provided they aren't in a hurry and are willing to check through the instructions in manuals carefully, especially if anything doesn't seem to want to go in just right. Probably need to buy some tools, but those may well be useful to have some other time.2) The matrixowners.com site has the Matrix service manuals available for download. The engines, mounting, and attachment of accessories are all compatible. They have them both for the '03 - '04 and the '05 - '08 model years.3) Not certain, but I think the engine itself is the same. But the '06 would use the 'drive-by-wire' system to control the throttle instead of a cable so you'd need to move the ECU and wiring, etc. from your current engine to the replacement one.Good luck on getting the car running right again soon. All the reliability data I've seen has shown the Vibe to have an excellent record overall (and equal to the similar Toyota Matrix and Corolla). But there will still be some premature failures in even the best designed and built vehicles. BTW, Vibes and Corollas go down the same assembly line so one engine will go into a Vibe and the next one on the rack will go into a Corolla.

[Raven]

$2,200.00 is insane to remove and replace an engine. It's a 1 day job and $400.00-$500.00 is more reasonable.

[cds22]

Quote, originally posted by prathman » All the reliability data I've seen has shown the Vibe to have an excellent record overall (and equal to the similar Toyota Matrix and Corolla). But there will still be some premature failures in even the best designed and built vehicles. I have been to see a few dealers (Toyota & Honda) to see if they would even entertain the idea of my vibe as a trade-in. Two said yes, as long as they could find a wholesaler willing to take it off their hands. Two said "not unless you put a new engine in it first". But all of them were surprised to hear of my problems with the car because they all considered the Vibe and Matrix to be excellent vehicles with typically good trade-in value.

[ten2vibe]

What poor Carol is going thru is very typical for us up here in Canada.We are a sparsely populated place and we dont have many choices for service, parts etc... So we usually end up paying bunches more compared to similar procedures, parts etc...in the lower 48.

[cds22]

Quote, originally posted by ten2vibe »What poor Carol is going thru is very typical for us up here in Canada.We are a sparsely populated place and we dont have many choices for service, parts etc... So we usually end up paying bunches more compared to similar procedures, parts etc...in the lower 48.True, unfortunately. I've since gotten 3 more quotes from other auto shops to install an engine and all were between $1800 - $2200. Most quoted around 20 hours to complete the job. We're just waiting to receive a service manual so we can decide whether or not to tackle the job ourselves.....

[Raven]

At 20 hours you'd be paying $110.00/hour.I talked to my mechanic here in rural Quebec and he said to swap engines would be only $400.00.

[Lancer]

Try car-part.com and look up corolla, vibe, and matrix engines. I found an '07 w/4000 miles on it for only $800.Then find a private mechanic that specializes in toyota's or jap. cars. Stay far away from dealerships!! They will only screw you. Then pay in cash. My mechanic knocked off almost $500 cuz I paid in cash. I had the engine swap, race cams with valve springs & retainers, new 160 degree thermostat, transfer the oil pan and s/c, and new motor mounts all installed for $1000.

[LittleRedRebel01]

my 06 pontiac vibe started doing this to it just alittle tapping i cant tell where its coming from