Does size matter?

darcmater · Post by **darcmater** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:08 am

Ok this question is in refernece to sub sizes, in particular 12's vs 15's. I was browsing differant web sites the other day lookign at newer subs and was lookign at the GTO series by JBL and noticed that the specs on their 12 and 15 subs looked almost identical. here are the links to them http://www.jbl.com/car/product...r=GTS and http://www.jbl.com/car/product...r=GTSThe have the same 300 watts RMS sensitivity, range etc. Biggest differanc eis the 1.0cuft to 1.5 cuft enclsoure specs. The graphs of their responce even look close from what I can tell. So my question is this with the same amp(300 watts lets say) which will sound better theroretically? The 15 because it will be pushing more air in the sealed box or the 12 because it will be pushing harder ( more power to smaller enclosure)

vibe007 · Post by **vibe007** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:58 am

I didn't heard alot of 15 inch sub, but I think that the difference would be that the 15 inch sub would have a deeper bass than the 12, and it needs a bigger box like you said. If you listen to rock or something like that, you may prefer asmaller sub, like a 10 or 12 inch, and if you listen to rap or hip-hop, you may prefer the 15inch but the 12 can do a really great job to, it depend if you mind of paying the difference, and if you don't need the 0.5 cubic feet difference. The choice of a sub is really personnal i think, because nobody listen to music the same way. But one thing is sure, you have to post pics Good luck!

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:47 am

Quote, originally posted by vibe007 Â»I didn't heard alot of 15 inch sub, but I think that the difference would be that the 15 inch sub would have a deeper bass than the 12, and it needs a bigger box like you said. If you listen to rock or something like that, you may prefer asmaller sub, like a 10 or 12 inch, and if you listen to rap or hip-hop, you may prefer the 15inch but the 12 can do a really great job to, it depend if you mind of paying the difference, and if you don't need the 0.5 cubic feet difference. The choice of a sub is really personnal i think, because nobody listen to music the same way. But one thing is sure, you have to post pics Good luck!I would agree with the above... I've herd plenty of 15" subs and personally, i've never liked them... they almost always seem "sloppy" to me. The only time I would go with a 15" sub would be using it in an Infinite Baffle (IB) configuration (which you can't do in a hatch style car) and with a super low crossover point like 50hz..The specs you read are TOTALY nominal values, all of which change when being both, put into an enclosure AND into the car... The enclosure makes the biggest difference... You could take a rather crappy sub and put it into a really nice enclosure and get wonderfull controled bass, the flip side of that is you could take the most "extreme" sub and put it into a crappy enclosure and get crappy bass... Once you have good clean bass, then you put it into the car and things change AGAIN, because of the "cabin gain" of the car..Another interesting fact about bass is that the size of the cars interior effects the QUANITY and overall output of the bass.. a 30hz tones "wave leingth" is about 50ft long(i'm not 100% sure exactly, but you get the idea)... so most of it propigates OUTSIDE of the car...lol Overall, having a smaller sub in a small vehical WILL net you better overall bass. I've been told many a time, that when looking for the perfect enclosure for a particular car, expect to build 2-3 before you find one that works well, after all of the modeling and consideration have been covered, it's the nature of the bass(beast)Now, if all you want it DEEPER bass, go ported with the port tuned to like 30hz, that when when it hits the resonant frequency (30hz) and add in the cabin gain you'll end up with a low bass extension in that range of about 3-6db, and if you know anything about how Db works, it's like adding a few HUNDRED watts of power in that frequency range...

darcmater · Post by **darcmater** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:38 am

yeah from what I have read db are logrithmic function when it increases. think i read soemthing like 100 watts per 1 db gain? Some what related a guy once told me the differance between a 12 and a 15 is like a skinny guy and a fat guy, the fat guy will get there sooner or later but takes alot more work : )

Gonzo · Post by **Gonzo** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:55 am

To get a deeper sound the speaker needs to move more air. So the larger diameter speaker will move more air thus deeper bass. It take more power to move the larger volume of air so on the same size amp you may prefer the smaller speaker. With the correct system I prefer 15's over 12's any day. 12's just can't get down low enough for me. I have mine crossing over around 150 HZ with mid bass going on up to the mid-range. With any speaker they need to be in the correct enclosure. Music styles really does not come into play with frequency. I have all kinds of music, rock to classical, that that gets really low. One of my favorites to show off the 15's was a song from Queen. When played in a buddy's car with 6 10's you could not even hear it. They just would not go low enough.

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:50 am

Quote, originally posted by Gonzo Â»To get a deeper sound the speaker needs to move more air. So the larger diameter speaker will move more air thus deeper bass. It take more power to move the larger volume of air so on the same size amp you may prefer the smaller speaker. With the correct system I prefer 15's over 12's any day. 12's just can't get down low enough for me. I have mine crossing over around 150 HZ with mid bass going on up to the mid-range. With any speaker they need to be in the correct enclosure. Music styles really does not come into play with frequency. I have all kinds of music, rock to classical, that that gets really low. One of my favorites to show off the 15's was a song from Queen. When played in a buddy's car with 6 10's you could not even hear it. They just would not go low enough. Wow man, you run your low pass up to 150hz...!!! and on 12's..!! I wouldn't, personally, anything hinting over 80hz and you are starting to get into mid-bass territory makes for MUCH more work on the sub and begins to allow you to "localize" where the sub is due to high frequency content... I mean, to each thier own, but I wouldn't recomend it.. Another thing someone mentioned, the lower the frequency, the more difficult it is for a smaller driver to couple to the air (to actually move it "pistonicly") so as frequency drops, it becomes more and more difficult to push it.. I think this is where Gonzo was going with what he said.. If you want to see what it REALLY takes to produce LOW frequency output, look at the Eminent Technology TRW-17 Rotary Vane woofer... WOW.. http://www.eminent-tech.com/main.htmlIt's a LONG technical read, but it REALLY puts sub bass into perspective..

Gonzo · Post by **Gonzo** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:17 am

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind Â»Wow man, you run your low pass up to 150hz...!!! and on 12's..!! They were 15's. They had no problem producing in that frequency range. Mid base was handled by teo pairs of 6's that worked well. The frequency curve on the system was almost perfect. Man I miss that system, as it was several years ago back in my younger days. Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind Â»Another thing someone mentioned, the lower the frequency, the more difficult it is for a smaller driver to couple to the air (to actually move it "pistonicly") so as frequency drops, it becomes more and more difficult to push it.. I think this is where Gonzo was going with what he said.. Yes, but it just did not come out that way.

vibe007 · Post by **vibe007** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:35 am

haha I have a 10 inch sub and my box as a bandpass at about 60hz and my low pass filter on the amp is set at about 70hz at 8db per octave and beleive me, it sounds crazy!

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:34 am

Man mabye Im gettin old my LPF is only at 50hz.I agree with all above it depends on the type of music that you listen to, also what you want the sub to do. If you want it to get nasty deep and play a couple db louder then the 15 would be fine. Now if you listen to rock and blues type music for your power range I would hit a 10 or 12. But now if you had say 1000-1500 watts to play with I would say swing with the 15. As long as you have enough powre to control the speaker and know the limits of it you can get really great SQ from a 15 or larger woofer, but it will only work if you toss a ton of power on it and keep it controlled by means of tuning.Aron

darcmater · Post by **darcmater** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:45 pm

My question was more of a generic question about how to compare subs, when listening to them in person is not an option. What spec's to look at/for.personally i listen to a range of music, but mostly i like pop/rap/rock. I like the total system to be able to cover the whole range, so i try to build a sytem where each component covers its proper range.

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:45 pm

Im not really sure of a way to effectively compare subs or speakers for that matter with out listening to them. You can use programs such as Winisd http://www.linearteam.dk/defau...inisdor BassBoxhttp://www.ht-audio.com/pages/Download.htmlThese will give you a general idea of how a speaker will work in a given enclosure, but then once you toss the enclosure into a car the results will change, and when you put it in a different car the results change again and on and on. My best advise would be to ask advise of what works best for others in the same application. The only problem with this method is ti is tremondosly biased with everyone stateing their favorite brands and what they use.Another option is to use your friends boxes. Toss a friends box in and see how you like the sound in your car, the more friends with boxes the better off you will be.Sorry this answer is still a mile off of what you were looking for. While thetheil small parameters are the specs that you would need to compare subs they are useless without one of the mentioned free box programs I listed.Also try to organize a vibe meet in your area, there are a few vibers in the MI area and some might even have the same setup your looking for. or theres always the trial and error method, though it gets expensive it will get the job done. Hope it helps and isnt to confusing.Aron

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:49 pm

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind Â»The only time I would go with a 15" sub would be using it in an Infinite Baffle (IB) configuration (which you can't do in a hatch style car) and with a super low crossover point like 50hz..MMMMMM Infinite Baffle 15"s The winingest (is that a word?)combination in IASCA when using the sub.Aron

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:14 pm

Quote, originally posted by audiovibe Â»MMMMMM Infinite Baffle 15"s The winingest (is that a word?)combination in IASCA when using the sub.AronThere is a guy on DIYMA that's got 3 ID IDmax 12's in IB... that's gotta be incredible... Darcmater, you have to get really serious and honest with yourself as to WHAT it is you want out of your sub system, than with that outlined, push toward your goal.. I mean with 3 12's, you are after bass, lots of it.. bass that overpowers everything else... I used to be that way myself... but as my tastes have matured i've turned the bass down a bit (don't get me wrong, I love to pound, "sometimes") and moved toward my goal of SQL or Sound Quality Loud (in reference to SQ/SQL/SPL) I am hoping my sub choice is going to help me get to my goal... but, like you, I can't demo hardly ANYTHING, IF ANYTHING.. I just have no outlet for it... I live in a VERY VERY small town, without a decent shop for 100mi in any direction... So, i've spent MUCH time on various forums, watching, reading, waiting to see the opinions of others in a statistical way, to base my choice from... it's the best I can do, and I ended up with a pair of Image Dynamics IDQ10v2 subs... which in the car audio world are regarded as some of the best SQ subs ever produced.... The funny thing is, you really wouldn't "know" it by looking at them...

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:45 am

HeHe Im changeing to an IDQ this summer.Aron

wyatt89 · Post by **wyatt89** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:59 am

you can get deep bass from a 10 if you wanted to, box design is just as important as the sub (if not more) if you want deep bass, you will need a fairly large enclosure with a tuning freq about 28 or 30...i have never liked 15's personally, im more of an 8-12 person...i like sq over output...as for deep bass, you have cabin gain to make up for a small woofer anywayslol, sublime, those fan woofers are good for like 5hz, ive seen some serious ones on diyaudio.com lol oh and isnt the gay moon and tunes sub technicially an infinite baffle? anyways, i would stay away from 15's unless all you do is listen to droning rap music...what kind of stuff do you listen to, we can probably help you out?also if you have an amp already, what is it so we know how many rms watts its pumping so we can find a decent woofer to match it...

darcmater · Post by **darcmater** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:17 am

just noticed the mention of 3x 12's and beign after bass, i kinda thought 3 was a toned down from the 6 i had in the extended cab of my s-10, talk about the roof flexing : ) Her eis a link to a few pics i have of it http://smg.photobucket.com/alb.../S-10/ The 3x set up is do more to them beign dual voice coil at 6 ohm then anything, otherwise get funny loads for the amp. If i recall corectly the speakers are wired up in series/parralel or soemthing liek that to make the balance right

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:33 pm

Quote, originally posted by wyatt89 Â»lol, sublime, those fan woofers are good for like 5hz, ive seen some serious ones on diyaudio.com Those rotary vane subs are actually almost distortion free down to 1hz..!!!! It's a completely different concept obviously, and much better able to couple to the air as such low frequencies... It's just to bad they don't make a "mini" version for car audio applications... (hmmm... I wonder if that would be a patentable idea?)Quote Â»just noticed the mention of 3x 12's and being after bass, i kinda thought 3 was a toned down from the 6 i had in the extended cab of my s-10, talk about the roof flexing : ) Her eis a link to a few pics i have of it http://smg.photobucket.com/alb.../S-10/ The 3x set up is do more to them being dual voice coil at 6 ohm then anything, otherwise get funny loads for the amp. If i recall corectly the speakers are wired up in series/parralel or soemthing liek that to make the balance right6- 12'z would definitely put you into the bass Nazi range... LoL... My car audio mentor showed me pics of his first "SPL" install in his old Suzuki Sidekick.... He actually had 4- 15" in isobaric 2 behind each seat and on top of that he had 2 rows of 3 12"er sitting on top of that... IN A SIDEKICK.... he said the side view mirrors used to flap like a dogs ears.. The wiring of subs (series/parralel) isn't so much about balancing out the system, but being able to show the amplifier the proper or desired load... I guess, part of it "could" be considered balancing, because at you move up in ohm load (4-8-16) you halve the output power... Using the table in my Sig.... Ohms Laws, if you look ar the power area, and do some changing to the resistance (1-2-4-6-8-16 ohms) you will see a halving or doubling effect each time you switch between values.. Each time you parallel a load, you cut it's impedance in half, each time you series a load, you double it's impedance... an amplifier CANNOT work without a load... it has to have something to work "against" the closer to move toward ZERO ohms the closer you get to a dead short.. this is WHY there are so few amps that are rated for 1/2 and 1/4 ohm loads...

wyatt89 · Post by **wyatt89** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:58 am

(removed)! i cant see a sidekick as a good choice for spl, it would rattle itself in half...for serious spl, wall that beehotch

darcmater · Post by **darcmater** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:08 am

speakeing of rattle apart, ir ecently found this video of this guy that seems to be well on his way to that in about another 30 secondshttp://www.teamssaudio.com/video/play.php?vid=110oh and is aw a referance to infite baffle i think, what is that exactly?

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:38 pm

Quote, originally posted by wyatt89 Â»(removed)! i cant see a sidekick as a good choice for spl, it would rattle itself in half...for serious spl, wall that beehotchIt wasn't, but it was what he had and he wanted to see if it was doable.. it was an "expierment" And it definitly had a WALL... lol

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:44 pm

Quote, originally posted by darcmater Â»speakeing of rattle apart, ir ecently found this video of this guy that seems to be well on his way to that in about another 30 secondshttp://www.teamssaudio.com/video/play.php?vid=110oh and is aw a referance to infite baffle i think, what is that exactly?IB or infinite baffle is where you use the subs suspension, coupled with a large enclosure, a trunk, completely sealed off from the cabin, for sub bass duties... It's not very efficient, but can get REALLY low... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_enclosureI recently went to a meet in Detroit for DIYMA and one of the guys was an IASCA competitor and brought out his comp car... It used IB... 2- 15" JBL subs, and overall, almost NO bass... but he was a straight up SQ guy...

wyatt89 · Post by **wyatt89** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:55 am

im used to seeing ib's as converted closets...people will have an extra closet in their media room that they will seal off, reinforce and put a few 12's in the door, those things are intense if you have enough power to push them

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:49 am

If you REALLY need that intense low bass, go with a Jackhammer 22" sub.... and about 10kw of amp..!!!

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:59 am

dont foprget the forklift!Aron

darcmater · Post by **darcmater** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:02 am

i know size isn't allways better, but looking at those give me a warm fuzzy feeling some place : )

wyatt89 · Post by **wyatt89** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:19 am

ugh, i would love to see someone try to do sq with that *****... or listen to jazz...that would sound like crap

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:46 am

There are certin subs in the larger range that are designed for sq, I would laugh if mtx tried to play this one off as an sq sub.Aron

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:45 pm

Quote, originally posted by wyatt89 Â»ugh, i would love to see someone try to do sq with that *****... or listen to jazz...that would sound like crapDon't forget, the box makes the sub... If done properly it "could" sound good...

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:47 pm

Quote, originally posted by audiovibe Â»There are certin subs in the larger range that are designed for sq, I would laugh if mtx tried to play this one off as an sq sub.Aronthat would never happen, but like I said above, it "could" sound good, given the proper install...

audiovibe · Post by **audiovibe** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:43 am

True dat, If MTX would donate me a sub and some power I would be more then happy to try to find that sweet box design.Aron

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:47 am

Quote, originally posted by audiovibe Â»True dat, If MTX would donate me a sub and some power I would be more then happy to try to find that sweet box design.AronSure, if you could live without your back seats and hatch area...

wyatt89 · Post by **wyatt89** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:40 pm

dude i dont even think my truck could haul that thing the back end would be sagging lol!

darcmater · Post by **darcmater** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:08 pm

just looked at all the stats for that thing, gotta love the aprt about the magnet messign with credit cards within 25 feet. think i can get it to fit on my new bike?

wyatt89 · Post by **wyatt89** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:48 am

GHETTOBLASTAZ INITIATE!!

injun_josh · Post by **injun_josh** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:42 pm

15 inch subs have a larger surface area therefore they are heavier. this makes the cone respond and travel slower than a smaller sub. on the other hand the fact that it has more surface area means it can move more air, in which you get massively loud bass. 15s are really good for deep booming bass. in paticular the bass tones that you hear at competitions. 12s are alot cleaner, son on and so fourth. i listen to every kind of music out there.... well not polka. and i swear by 10s. they are light enough to respond well to music such as metal and keep it clean but also pack a pretty good bit of low end boom

Does size matter?

Does size matter?

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