Help!! The vibe I bought had the Catalytic Converters Removed

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:42 am

I bought a Vibe GT 2003 and it idles rough. I took it to the Toyota dealership and they found out the Catalytic Converters are missing. They want me to buy a new exhaust for $600+ and $400 for installation.What are my options. Noone around will give me options other than, install a Catalytic converter. Can I bypass or trick the 02 sensor?Do I just need to suck it up and buy the Cat?Thanks,rough running in Idaho in the winter

kevera · Post by **kevera** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:47 am

Did your Vibe always run rough?Some guys run a straight pipe with no cats,and theirs don't run rough.More info would help us help you.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:08 am

take it back to who you bought it from and ask for 1000bucks back to get the car threw emissions.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:09 am

Did you buy that from a dealer? I would think removing the cat would not be legal. I never had to replace a cat but I would guess this could be accomplished at less cost at a muffler shop.

kunkstyle · Post by **kunkstyle** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:24 am

For that price you'd be better off getting a custom exhaust done.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:50 am

Quote, originally posted by kunkstyle Â»For that price you'd be better off getting a custom exhaust done.x2... i got a quote to do a full header back exhaust with new cat for my awd vibe for 400bucks.All dealers will rob you blind.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:05 am

The idle was always rough. I get the 300 errors 1,3,4I replaced the mass air flow and O2I took it to the dealer and they said they couldn't troubleshoot the problem without the Cat.I asked further and in discussion he said that the lack of Cat, with the signal from the o2 sensor could make it run rich/lean and cause the misfire when idling.If going with a custom exhaust, which would be the best and the best for the price?Keith - which did you get and where did you get it?

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:07 am

I am in Idaho, there aren't any emissions laws....In my 72 chevy I ran headers to cherry bombs,Small block chevy with cherry bombs sounds great!!

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:04 am

Well I smell BS...300 codes are for engine issues like missfires. 400 codes are for emmissions from loose gas cap to bad converter. Usually a bad converter or lack there of sets a p0420 code.$400 in labor sounds like a lot. In 10 mins I could change out the one on my Vibe.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:09 am

That is what I was thinking, but I dont know enough about vehicles with ECUs. I can rebuild internal combustion engines, but I am still learning about the sensor stuff. Basically I don't know enough to call BS on them and they won't do anything more to help me until I install catalytic converters.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:19 am

Did you physically look under the car yourself and see that the cats were gone? You replaced which o2 sensor? The first one is in the exhaust header/manifold. It's the one responsible for AF mixture. If it was the second one (for emissions) then it should have been noticed that the cat was gone or the second one may not even be there. There are o2 simulators available to trick the system but they're not recommended or legal. Whether your state has emission checks or not, these cars are meant to be run with cats.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:22 am

I saw two sensors, one that connected to the wiring harness near the center console, that is the one I replaced. The other sensor looked like it went into the exhaust after the resonator which came up through the floorboard by the back seat. When I was under the car, I didn't look for the cats. I had to search the Internet to see what a cat looked like.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:29 am

That's not a resonator, that's a cat. There is no o2 sensor after the resonator. If you look further to the back there should be another bulge which is the resonator and then the muffler.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:41 am

There is the muffler at the back, then a expanded portion of the pipe that is long, about 18-24" long that sits under the back seat.Is that a resonator or cat? That is the piece I am calling that the resonator.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:10 am

Quote, originally posted by idaho03vibe Â»I am in Idaho, there aren't any emissions laws....I think there are federal laws re the cat!

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:11 am

That sounds like the resonator but there should be no o2 sensor to the rear of it. A little forward of the resonator there should be another bulge which is the cat.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:18 am

So that is what I hear, I just found out that you cannot buy Cats from junk yards. My point is only that I don't have to pass emissions.I like my car, I just want to find a good solution to have it run great. It would be nice if it were inexpensive. If my only solution is to get the cats then possibly pay $x more after installing a new Cat, which I don't know if the prev owner hacked up the cat back and possibly have to replace both the cat and cat back.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:25 am

I will try to post a picture this weekend. I don't get home until after dark. I would like to try and bypass the o2 sensor to mimic the cat is there so I can determine if the real problem is the cat or something else. Does anyone know the normal signal range that returns back to the ECU?

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:23 pm

Here is a picture of what the stock converter assembly looks likeWhat is labeled as "O2 sensor hole" is for the second O2 sensor. The wire for it runs up through the front of the front passenger floor pan and connects under the shifter. The other O2 sensor is in the exhaust manifold, upstream of what the picture shows, it connects in the engine compartment.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:03 am

I looked underneath the car and the second Cat has been replaced with a straight pipe. It sounds like I replaced the second sensor when I needed to replace (bank 1). When I replaced the second sensor the O2 error went away and hasn't come back.

AZViking · Post by **AZViking** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:12 am

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»I think there are federal laws re the cat! I'm guessing Idaho doesn't have emission inspections, so who's going to notice a missing Cat? I know we don't have inspections here in SD. We had to go every other year in AZ.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:24 am

I know, the problem is that now the car is idling crappy and the dealer won't help fix it without installing a cat and they want $1000 to fix it....If I'm going to install a cat, I would rather invest in some aftermarket cats and have the muffler shop weld them in.But if I can fix the problem without the cats, I'll leave them out...I mean the car runs better with the second O2 sensor unplugged.. It idles around 1000 rather than 750, but it doesn't sound like it is choking...

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:07 am

If the second cat is missing, it should not affect the second o2 sensor at all because the sensor is upstream from the cat. Unless the GT exhaust is different from the above picture. I don't think the missing cat has anything to do with your problem. Your bank 1 o2 sensor may be going bad but hasn't tripped the CEL yet. Did you use Techron injector cleaner? If not give it a try.Magnaflow has high flow cats for about $70.00 I think. A shop should weld it in pretty inexpensively.

DavidPIL · Post by **DavidPIL** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:22 am

Joatman,That's a base exhaust right? My 03 GT has a 2nd o2 sensor after the 2nd cat as well. I'm not sure if that means anything in idaho's issue but it still sounds like whoever worked on his car relocated the 2nd o2 sensor after the resonator location.idaho, you should be able to go to a local exhaust shop and have them verify if you have a cat or if it's just a resonator. If someone took out both cats, though I'm no expert on this, that may send the wrong information to the first o2 sensor. I guess that's what Raven said though.Make sure you have the 1st cat in place which is angled down from the engine (exhaust header) and that the 1st o2 sensor is right after that. I had unplugged my 2nd o2 sensor last week when trying to figure out a CEL issue and it caused no oddities in my idle.Dave

satur9 · Post by **satur9** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:31 am

you can get o2 simulaors cel eliminators on ebay for 10-30 dollars.or you can make a mechanical one for about 5 bucks.go to your local autoparts store are find 18mm spark plug antifoulers.(2 types shallow and deep get deep) drill the small hole in one of them out to 3/8 in . drill the other one 1/4 in . screw the bigger hole one onto your 2nd o2 sensor the screw the smaller hole one onto that then screw it back in the exhaust. bassically it spaces your o2 sensor about 2 inches(make sure you have clearance )farther out.it got rid of my 02 sensor related problems.and i only have one high flow cat.otherwise any muffler shop should be able to hook you up cheap. theyre not allow to remove stock stuff. but yours is already gone.can you get pics of your exhaust btw.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:44 am

Quote, originally posted by DavidPIL Â»Joatman,That's a base exhaust right? Thanks, you're right, my pic was of a base, idaho has a GT. I know the exhaust is run differently on an AWD, I didn't even consider it might be different for a GT.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:56 am

I used STP Injector cleaner in the last two tanks of 91 octane. It hasn't helped....

CountryVibe · Post by **CountryVibe** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:57 pm

What octane have you been running in it? The GT has a high compression, it needs a slower burning fuel. If you have been running 87 in it that might cause rough idle, how many miles are on the car you might need to change the spark plugs

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:51 pm

I run 91 octaneI put new NGK Iridium plugs in last weekend.I have 59k on it.

kevera · Post by **kevera** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:13 pm

A couple of things to check.Are you running the stock ECU.Maybe the last owner had some other form of engine management before he sold the Vibe and switched back when he sold it.About the rough idle,is it misfiring or vibrating?Are you running a CAI?It could be a Vacuum leak,or one of the valves could be sticking.It could possible be a bad coil pack.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:22 am

I am misfiring in 1,3,4. I switched coil packs 1 and 2. Cleared the CEL, then drove it again, when CEL came on again, I checked the error codes and again it was misfiring on 1,3,4. So I am comfortable that the coil packs are good, or at least coil pack 1.What does the stock ECU say on top of it? I can see it when I pull the carpet back to plug in the O2 SensorThere is a vibrate that seems to come from the exhaust header to under the stick shift area when idling.I have the Stock air box and I checked the clamps at both the throttle body and the air box.Thanks everyone for all your input, it is appreciated.

kevera · Post by **kevera** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:23 am

That covers most of everything except a compression/leak down test or fauty injectors.I would first try listening to the injectors,see if they are working correctly.I would also make sure your 02 sensors are hooked up,since you want keep any other factors out of the equasion.

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:53 am

What is the compression supposed to be in a 2zz GT? I have access to a compression guage.

DavidPIL · Post by **DavidPIL** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:59 am

11.5:1

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:18 am

Quote, originally posted by DavidPIL Â»11.5:1That's the compression ratio, compression is in PSI.

kevera · Post by **kevera** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:30 am

Compression pressure=203psiminimum pressure=145psiDifference between each cylinder=16psiAlso just FYI,the 2zz has only 1 cat,and the 02 sensors are before and after the cat,not in the manifold. Here is the manual portion for the p0300.

Attached files cip0300.pdf (29.7 KB)

DavidPIL · Post by **DavidPIL** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:33 am

Quote, originally posted by Raven Â»That's the compression ratio, compression is in PSI.oops, sorry

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:01 am

Thanks for the pdf. Would you post pages 11-7, 11-5 and 10-12...Those are a couple things I haven't checked.Thanks,

kevera · Post by **kevera** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:29 am

One at a time.

Attached files 2zz10-12.pdf (50.1 KB)

kevera · Post by **kevera** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:32 am

Next one

Attached files fuel11-7.pdf (27.8 KB)

kevera · Post by **kevera** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:33 am

And finally.Hope this helps a little.

Attached files fuelpress11-5.pdf (37 KB)

idaho03vibe · Post by **idaho03vibe** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:58 pm

I had a Catco Catalytic Converter installed this morning. It is running better, but not right. After I picked my car up I drove around until it was warm then went to Checker and cleared the CEL. I drove around some more and it came on again.Crap!

LeatherVibe · Post by **LeatherVibe** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:20 am

One clogged fuel injector can cause rough running. It can also confuse the O2 sensor and closed loop fuel control and cause it to throw a CEL. How do the spark plugs look? Got one blacker than the others? Got one lighter than the others? It just takes a couple hundred miles on new plugs for one of them to show the fuel or spark is messed up.

LeatherVibe · Post by **LeatherVibe** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:39 am

I just saw the "fuel11-7.pdf" You can mimic the injector input by using a 9v battery. I did this on some civic injectors, removed from the car. Submerged the ends in some injector cleaner, lifted them out one at a time and cycled them several times while listening and watching as they clicked and spit out fluid. Worked good.When the same Civic had 2 throttle body injectors, one would leak a little when the engine got warmed up. That would give me an O2 cel. A twin cam, multi-port injected ZC engine swap fixed that problem.As you already swapped the coil packs, and the same cylinders gave cels, my money's on the injectors. Even with the O2 sensors unplugged, it should idle and run OK in "limp mode".

ProtonXX · Post by **ProtonXX** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:24 pm

im selling a jp midpipe for cheap. It would save you some money on th $600 cat converter replacement