Hybrid 2009 Matrix/Vibe ??

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:08 am

The rumor mill is churning....http://www.autoblog.com/2007/1...ether/

ramenboy... · Post by **ramenboy...** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:24 am

Quote Â»...no matter what GM thinks of hybrids, the company made a mistake letting Toyota get so far ahead with hybrids such that now the Japanese brand has become practically synonymous with hybrids and is perceived to be atop a green moral high ground...you got that right

Kamikaze · Post by **Kamikaze** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:52 am

I would really like to see the Trix/Vibe with a Hybrid version... I'd buy a used one in a few years.

POLO · Post by **POLO** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:56 am

Same for me

zionzr2 · Post by **zionzr2** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:39 pm

I want a diesel option

ajflan · Post by **ajflan** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:22 am

I'm just curious, but does anyone realize that the economic footprint of a hybrid and that of a regular gas efficient 4-cylinder are about the same? The work involved in making the batteries is not exactly enviro-friendly. Not to mention the future repair cost of these hybrids will be far greater than that of a traditional car. The best way to go is diesel. Unfortunately, America has yet to embrace the concept like Europe.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:27 am

Quote, originally posted by ajflan Â»The best way to go is diesel. Unfortunately, America has yet to embrace the concept like Europe. Patience, young one. That is coming.....Honda, GM......the wheels (no pun intended) are in motion.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:39 am

+1 to diesel...but +2 to a diesel hybrid

KNINE · Post by **KNINE** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:13 am

Quote, originally posted by ajflan Â» Unfortunately, America has yet to embrace the concept like Europe. I hear this comment from time to time and it tends to frustrate me. I don't know about other parts of the country, but around here diesel tends to run at least 50 cents a gallon more than gasoline. I know that diesel engines are more economical to operate than gasoline engines, but enough to counter the higher cost? Correct me if I'm wrong, it happens now and then.

kevera · Post by **kevera** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:25 am

Quote, originally posted by K-NINE Â»I hear this comment from time to time and it tends to frustrate me. I don't know about other parts of the country, but around here diesel tends to run at least 50 cents a gallon more than gasoline. I know that diesel engines are more economical to operate than gasoline engines, but enough to counter the higher cost? Correct me if I'm wrong, it happens now and then. Prices for fuel are different in Europe.Yes diesel is more but by only cents(less than 10 cents).So in Europe the benefits out weigh the costs. I know because my family's from England and a few of them have diesel vehicles.You think we pay a lot for petrol,they pay like $7 a gallon for gas.

Daox · Post by **Daox** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:34 am

Quote, originally posted by ajflan Â»I'm just curious, but does anyone realize that the economic footprint of a hybrid and that of a regular gas efficient 4-cylinder are about the same? The work involved in making the batteries is not exactly enviro-friendly. Not to mention the future repair cost of these hybrids will be far greater than that of a traditional car. The best way to go is diesel. Unfortunately, America has yet to embrace the concept like Europe. The theory about hybrids being just as if not more polluting when including the manufacturing process has been debunked and is untrue.Upkeep of course will be more costly, especially when the battery packs die. However, as more cars are made as hybrids that will lower costs of the packs.I highly doubt Toyota would make a hybrid Matrix. Thats pretty much what a Prius is. It would take away market share from the Prius, and the Matrix still wouldn't get as good of fuel economy as a Prius.

KNINE · Post by **KNINE** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:42 am

Quote, originally posted by Daox Â»I highly doubt Toyota would make a hybrid Matrix. Thats pretty much what a Prius is. It would take away market share from the Prius, and the Matrix still wouldn't get as good of fuel economy as a Prius.Why? Isn't the Matrix a lighter car?I would think that Toyota would be reluctant to "give" GM a hybrid car, when GM is already playing hybrid catch up.

Daox · Post by **Daox** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:53 am

Quote, originally posted by K-NINE Â»Why? Isn't the Matrix a lighter car?I would think that Toyota would be reluctant to "give" GM a hybrid car, when GM is already playing hybrid catch up.The Matrix may be lighter, but it doesn't have an electric motor, or huge battery pack in it yet. The Prius was designed for milage. Its quite a bit more aerodynamic, and has other provisions that help increase mileage.I agree with your idea about Toyota 'giving' GM a hybrid.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:56 am

Quote, originally posted by K-NINE Â»I hear this comment from time to time and it tends to frustrate me. I don't know about other parts of the country, but around here diesel tends to run at least 50 cents a gallon more than gasoline. I know that diesel engines are more economical to operate than gasoline engines, but enough to counter the higher cost? Correct me if I'm wrong, it happens now and then. the diesel cars over in europe can get and exceed 60mpg...i think that can justify 50 cents more a gallon

Daox · Post by **Daox** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:06 am

Those cars are also quite a bit smaller than your average American car.

KNINE · Post by **KNINE** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:14 am

If GM can build a 60 m.p.g. Vibe, give me an order form! I just don't want one of those European rollerscates.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:36 am

Quote, originally posted by Daox Â»Those cars are also quite a bit smaller than your average American car.4 door wagon and sedans? about the same size as a vibe id say..

engineertwin2 · Post by **engineertwin2** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:48 am

Quote, originally posted by ajflan Â»I'm just curious, but does anyone realize that the economic footprint of a hybrid and that of a regular gas efficient 4-cylinder are about the same? The work involved in making the batteries is not exactly enviro-friendly. Not to mention the future repair cost of these hybrids will be far greater than that of a traditional car. The best way to go is diesel. Unfortunately, America has yet to embrace the concept like Europe. Diesel still has it's issues. It's more expensive to produce very low sulfur diesel (because you have to refine it further) and there are still far greater particulate matter (PM) issues with diesel.Just changing the general 4-stroke gasoline engine from an Otto cycle engine to an Atkinson cycle engine would do wonders to engine efficiency but we (as a Nation) are not ready for 70 HP motors again.Quote, originally posted by K-NINE Â»I hear this comment from time to time and it tends to frustrate me. I don't know about other parts of the country, but around here diesel tends to run at least 50 cents a gallon more than gasoline. I know that diesel engines are more economical to operate than gasoline engines, but enough to counter the higher cost? Correct me if I'm wrong, it happens now and then. Diesel is produced from the same refineries that gasoline is produced in. Most refineries are run to produce more gasoline because they can make money through volume of sales. Some refineries are setup to run to produce more diesel because there is still a market for it and they can make enough money because there isn't a tremendous amount of capacity for it.In the days following Katrina in TX, some refineries were out of service due to storm damage. Gasoline prices skyrocketed and diesel prices were the cheapest for about a month. When gas prices came down and diesel prices shot up - it had nothing to do with those refineries coming back online. In fact, it took between 10 weeks and 12 months for most of those refineries to come back online.What happened was refineries that had operations setup to maximize diesel capacity changed their operations to maximize gasoline capacity. This increased gasoline on the market, dropping wholesale price, and decreased the amount of diesel on the market resulting in a price upswing for diesel.Despite what ajflan suggested, the majority of vehicles sold in Europe are still gasoline engines - not diesel. Diesel does have a larger foothold in Europe, based mostly on their reduced operations and maintenance costs (despite slightly higher capital costs). A further detractor for manufacturers in delivering diesel cars to the US has been the added expense and difficulty in meeting American emissions standards, which are the most stringent in the world.If you look at total environmental footprint, we'd all be riding bikes and public buses...if that was the world's greatest concern...Back on topic, I think that one of the major design points would have needed to be whether it would have a hybrid option. They redesigned the Camry but included the HSD as an option fromt he get go. I think either Pontiac or Toyota would've said something about it to create more buzz...

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:54 am

At least some of the cars are really tiny in Europe. My wife brought me back a brochure from Ireland that showed some of the cars for sale. Tiny cars with tiny motors. There are many motor accidents each year resulting in death because of the size of the cars. I'll have to see if I can find the brochure when I get home.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:19 am

well of course there are smaller cars there because some of the towns have those old tiny roads in them. do people need giant cars? not usually...at any rate, there are plenty of standard sedans and wagons 4 door that get 60mpg over there. vw, ford, honda, etc. and the bigger cars get over 30....

Daox · Post by **Daox** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:23 am

Quote, originally posted by northvibe Â»4 door wagon and sedans? about the same size as a vibe id say..For comparison's sake I looked up Peugeot's site to double check. I selected their 407 SW model for comparison's sake. I believe its quite close to a Matrix in size, although I didn't find any dimensions for it on their site. If you can find any lemme know so I know how far this comparison is off. But, here is what I found:110HP Diesel 5spd manual= 42.0 mpg (all are in US gallons)136HP Diesel 6spd manual = 39.2 mpg136HP Diesel 6spd auto = 32.7Info from here.I should also mention I have no idea how they test their cars out over there. There is no EPA there so they use a different set of tests.EDITTo add to that I'll put in the smaller 308's specs too since I couldn't find sizes.110hp Diesel 5spd manual - 50.1136hp Diesel 5spd manual - 42.7Definitly not bad numbers, but definitly not 60. You really have to go to a small car to get that high.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:40 am

2006 vw jetta tdi, 55mpg on a actual drive test epa was like 422008 vw rabbit2009 honda accordseat ibiza ecomotive and ecolife 1.4fhdivw polo bluemotioncitroen c3 (56mpg)mini clubmanhyundia i30ford fusion in europeplus a ton of other cars i cant find, all of those similar in size to a vibe or bigger.

Daox · Post by **Daox** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:58 am

Alright, I looked up the Fusion over in the UK and you are completely right. There are two models rated at 60+ mpg. I guess you do learn something new everyday. To be fair though, they have a respective 68 and 90 horsepower. The first is a 1.4L (61.4mpg) and second is a 1.6L (62.8 mpg). Would you all be willing to trade 40+ horsepower for 60mpg? I honestly probably could trade in my power for mileage, but thats me. Now all they have to do is meet emission standards here.Thanks for the info northvibe.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:09 am

hahh yes they have some crazy tiny engines. I wouldnt get one...i need power! if i was over there...id have a crazy WRC car :Dbut yes, the US people have been spoiled with what we have because our gas is much cheaper here than anywhere else...so meh what are ya gonna do..

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:15 am

Quote, originally posted by northvibe Â»hahh yes they have some crazy tiny engines. I wouldnt get one...i need power! if i was over there...id have a crazy WRC car :Dbut yes, the US people have been spoiled with what we have because our gas is much cheaper here than anywhere else...so meh what are ya gonna do..They just have more taxes on their gas to promote public transportation. That form of transportation only works in certain cities in the US. It's just the American way to drive great distances and have our privacy. In many of European countries you can get away with not owning a car.And just because their engines are tiny doesn't mean they aren't powerful. I'm sure that 1.6l Turbo-Diesel has more torque than most SUVs over here.But if the Brits are always driving such small underpowered cars, why do the guys on TopGear have such wood for fast cars and unrealistic drifting? And they make fun of us for going in a straight line.......

wyatt89 · Post by **wyatt89** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:18 am

see in my opinion, they should start mass producing these, they get motorcycle-esque gas mileage and performance :Dhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=wi_...latedthat would be soooo much fun to drive and those things have amazing tube-caged compartments and are pretty dang safe

Daox · Post by **Daox** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:38 am

Torque for the Fusion's engines are:1.4L - 118 ft/lbs1.6L - 147 ft/lbsYeah, not bad for a small engine, but not mind blowing. The 1ZZ has 122 ft/lbs, and I'm sure a gigantic power band compared to these engines. Engine size is probably the largest factor in torque output of engines. Horsepower can be gotten from small engines plus high rpm as it is simply a function of torque & rpm.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:45 am

^ and diesel's should be turbo'd they could squeak more out of it.

Daox · Post by **Daox** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:50 am

I'm pretty sure they're both turboed.

redlava · Post by **redlava** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:59 am

Quote, originally posted by Daox Â»I highly doubt Toyota would make a hybrid Matrix. Thats pretty much what a Prius is. It would take away market share from the Prius, and the Matrix still wouldn't get as good of fuel economy as a Prius.Plus if they would probably put the same engine and motor into the Matrix as they do the Prius, that way there is much less cost for them in the R&D department. It probably would take sales away from the Prius, but you would be keeping the buyer in the Toyota family. It's six of one but half a dozen of the other.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:21 am

That's like saying the Hybrid Highland takes market share away from the Prius. Just because two cars are hybrids doesn't mean they'll cannibalize sales.

zionzr2 · Post by **zionzr2** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:59 am

a bio-diesel with a straight veggie oil option is what i would want.

Daox · Post by **Daox** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:18 am

Quote, originally posted by Petrucci914 Â»That's like saying the Hybrid Highland takes market share away from the Prius. Just because two cars are hybrids doesn't mean they'll cannibalize sales.Thats really not the point. The Matrix and Prius are relatively the same size. Make the Matrix a hybrid and they are very similar vehicles. That takes away sales.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:40 am

Quote, originally posted by Daox Â»Thats really not the point. The Matrix and Prius are relatively the same size. Make the Matrix a hybrid and they are very similar vehicles. That takes away sales.Have you sat in and/or driven a Prius? I think not. It's not valid to compare them. At all.

MRCN RCE · Post by **MRCN RCE** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:17 pm

i'll take a hybrid vibe and trix with the lexus 600h L engine (but for under 40 grand) i've been in a prius several times, and they're ok cars. i don't think you could compare the trix n vibe to one tho. about the only thing they have in common is 4 doors n a hatch. trixes n vibes are wagons, and the prius is a sedan.and about wyatt's post, check this one out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExpEl0_5-Y&NR=1i would love to do that

kunkstyle · Post by **kunkstyle** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:02 pm

Quote, originally posted by northvibe Â»^ and diesel's should be turbo'd they could squeak more out of it.I don't know of any diesels here that aren't turboed. A diesel is pretty useless without a common rail system and a turbo.As far as the price difference goes, it all depends where you live. Out on the east coast (for those of you who heat their homes with heating oil), diesel will cost more for that reason. Places that use natural gas and other methods for heating, have a lower price point on diesel. Here it averages 10-20 cents lower than gas, with the odd exception.

Celtic_Curse · Post by **Celtic_Curse** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:41 am

Those tiny cars in Spain are not approved for highway driving. There are high MPG cars that are only for city driving and then cars for Hghway driving. The Ford Focus there new (is wicked) has the 1.8L VW engine in it, Chrysler used Mercedes engines in there Grand Caravans. I think we get the short end of the stick on this side of the world.

tnpartsguy · Post by **tnpartsguy** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:31 am

I don't want a Hybrid. The promise of Hybrid ends up being LIES. We got a new Tahoe hybrid today. It gets a whopping 2 mpg more city than the same 2wd gas version, and similary equipped it's over $9k MORE. In fact, I daresay if they did the same things to ALL Tahoes, they would all get better mileage.(1) More Aero front bumper and grille with a longer front air dam (2) Skinnier tires than the stock Tahoe (Plus they are a low rolling resistance tire not found on the normal Tahoe. (3) no roof rack (4) long rear window spoiler to keep air turbulance down. (5) weight reduction (supposedly to keep the weight the same as a normal Tahoe). I still think if all this was done to a full gas Tahoe, you'd better or equal the Hybrid Tahoe's promised mileage.http://www.sonyclassics.com/wh....html

michaelgt · Post by **michaelgt** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:27 pm

Quote, originally posted by tnpartsguy Â»I don't want a Hybrid. The promise of Hybrid ends up being LIES. We got a new Tahoe hybrid today. It gets a whopping 2 mpg more city than the same 2wd gas version, and similary equipped it's over $9k MORE. In fact, I daresay if they did the same things to ALL Tahoes, they would all get better mileage.(1) More Aero front bumper and grille with a longer front air dam (2) Skinnier tires than the stock Tahoe (Plus they are a low rolling resistance tire not found on the normal Tahoe. (3) no roof rack (4) long rear window spoiler to keep air turbulance down. (5) weight reduction (supposedly to keep the weight the same as a normal Tahoe). I still think if all this was done to a full gas Tahoe, you'd better or equal the Hybrid Tahoe's promised mileage.http://www.sonyclassics.com/wh....htmlI am not sure where you are getting your information from! The Tahoe Hybrid 2WD is rated at 21/22 mpg (city/hwy), and the 4WD is 20/20. The 5.3 Tahoe is rate at 14/20 (2WD) and 14/19 (4WD). Please kindly ensure that your data facts are accurate!

Daox · Post by **Daox** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:37 pm

Driven properly I have heard of the Tahoe hybrid getting over 30 mpg in the city and easily hitting mid to high 20s on the highway.You are correct in thinking that if they did those things listed to the base Tahoe it would return better mileage. It would be nice eh?

tnpartsguy · Post by **tnpartsguy** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:34 pm

Quote, originally posted by michaelgt Â»I am not sure where you are getting your information from! The Tahoe Hybrid 2WD is rated at 21/22 mpg (city/hwy), and the 4WD is 20/20. The 5.3 Tahoe is rate at 14/20 (2WD) and 14/19 (4WD). Please kindly ensure that your data facts are accurate! The window sticker on the 2WD Hybrid we got yesterday was CLEARLY marked 20/20 mpg.

tnpartsguy · Post by **tnpartsguy** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:37 pm

Quote, originally posted by Daox Â»Driven properly I have heard of the Tahoe hybrid getting over 30 mpg in the city and easily hitting mid to high 20s on the highway.You are correct in thinking that if they did those things listed to the base Tahoe it would return better mileage. It would be nice eh?Exactly! In fact they could do it to MOST vehicles and get better mileage, but according to the vehicle manufacters, the buying public won't buy 'melted jelly beans', which is what an aero-designed car would look like. Of course, these are the same manufactuers that snuck the electric car off the market and to the crusher......

michaelgt · Post by **michaelgt** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:22 am

Quote, originally posted by tnpartsguy Â»The window sticker on the 2WD Hybrid we got yesterday was CLEARLY marked 20/20 mpg.So based on that, the regular Tahoe has a window sticker that identifies 18 in the city? Your earlier post said that it got 2 better.

LOUROK · Post by **LOUROK** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:13 am

I drove a Prius this week. The gas milage is so GREAT. I want to get one know.

darcmater · Post by **darcmater** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:41 am

can we just make a car that run's off of soylent green, it would solve atleast 2 problems?

scherry2 · Post by **scherry2** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:35 am

Quote, originally posted by darcmater Â»can we just make a car that run's off of soylent green, it would solve atleast 2 problems?Doh! good one.....

1oldbanjo · Post by **1oldbanjo** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:21 pm

My wife has a 2000 diesel Jetta. When we bought it in the fall of 1999 diesel fuel was under a dollar a gallon - gasoline was about $ 1.40. The car only has 90 HP while the gasoline version is 140 hp. The diesel is not as fast as the gas car - but not as slow as you might think. When on the highway going 60 mph and you step on the gas pedal the car doesn't downshift (it is an automatic) or make any more noise.......it just starts to pull and accelerates as a result of having lots of torque. The gasoline car in the same scenario would downshift out of high gear as it has less torque available and must do the work with horspepower (torque x rpm). The only time the diesel power is scary is when you decide you have enough time to pull out in front of someone and floor it from a stop......it takes about a half a second before anything happens and you think you are going to get slammed.....then the turbo starts working and the torque starts building and it starts to pull pretty strong.....but no wheelspin or loud engine noises. The car gets 42-44 mpg and has 220,000 miles on it....we plan on keeping it until 300,000 and maybe more.I doubt that we would buy another diesel without doing some heavy research. The mileage is good and we like the car - but it is not cheap to maintain. Oil filters are $ 8.00 each and the car must use synthetic oil and each oil change is about $ 50 if I do it myself. There are about 10 screws to take out of the bottom engine cover before you can get to the drain plug - then 3 on top before you can get the top cover off to get to the filter and oil changes take a long time to complete. The engine needs a timing belt every 60,000 miles since it is an automatice and that runs about $ 600 - the stick shift can go 80,000 miles between belts. When fuel was 60% of the cost of gasoline the extra expense of maintenance was offset by the cheap fuel prices of diesel and my wife could drive all week on $ 12 worth of fuel. Now she spends close to $ 60 a week and when you figure in the extra maintenance cost it would be cheaper to buy a gasoline car that gets around 32 mpg like my Vibe.I am not sure that diesel engines are the answer to high fuel prices if manufactuers keep making the cars bigger and faster. The 1980's VW diesel Rabbit was not turbocharged and was a bit slower than the new ones - but they got 50 mpg. Now they are turbocharged and get 42 mpg - and the newer diesels are being changed to make 120 hp instead of 90 hp. For some reason they just keep building everything heavier and with more horsepower. I don't think I need extra HP when I make a 300 mile drive to go visit family or vacation - I would like to get more MPG.

engineertwin2 · Post by **engineertwin2** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:59 am

Quote, originally posted by 1oldbanjo Â»The mileage is good and we like the car - but it is not cheap to maintain. Oil filters are $ 8.00 each and the car must use synthetic oil and each oil change is about $ 50 if I do it myself. There are about 10 screws to take out of the bottom engine cover before you can get to the drain plug - then 3 on top before you can get the top cover off to get to the filter and oil changes take a long time to complete. The engine needs a timing belt every 60,000 miles since it is an automatice and that runs about $ 600 - the stick shift can go 80,000 miles between belts.I'm confused - why would an automatic require more frequent changing of the timing belt? You could do this yourself if you wanted, but timing belts/chains have to be replaced on any vehicle. It's the fact it's a belt that really adds to the cost of owning the diesel. The experience of my friends and family who have owned diesel engines has been minimal maintenance required compared to their gasoline counterparts.The new diesels likely come with timing chains, which may last forever. The oil change intervals (OCIs) would be the same regardless of whether it is diesel or gasoline. I'd recommend using synthetic oils anyways and OCI's can typically be pushed to at least 5k miles, if not further, using synthetics.

Whelan · Post by **Whelan** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:05 am

One thing for sure is Toyota dominates the Hybrid market. Even in the luxury segment they are the only ones offering Hybrids currently. All the others have diesels.The Saturn VUE and Ford Escape were the first US cars to get hybrid systems I believe (aside from the EV1). The Escape being first, but what has really shocked me is that for Ford to have just one small model be a Hybrid and using their technology for such a long time, why wouldn't they have worked to incorporate it sooner into the Fusion or the new Focus. Are they waiting for redesigns first?

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:19 am

I just want a car that runs on garbage. Or farts.

Hybrid 2009 Matrix/Vibe ??

Hybrid 2009 Matrix/Vibe ??

Re: Hybrid 2009 Matrix/Vibe ?? (Petrucci914)

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