Crank pulley fell off along with woodruff key...how bad?

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:07 pm

So I was driving home last night when all of a sudden my car lost all power. I limped it along for about 1/2 a mile when the engine cut out completely and the CEL light came on for crank shaft positioning sensor. Towed it home. In the morning i noticed that the crank pulley bolt had backed out (forgot to add LocTite). The woodruff key also fell out. So my questions are, how bad is this? Does this woodruff key also hold the timing cam in place on the crank shaft?

tnpartsguy · Post by **tnpartsguy** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:04 am

Doesn't sound good. Here's what all is there. #14 is the sensor 'excitor'. If the timing chain moved, you've hurt the motor.

Attached files Crankpully.pdf (42.9 KB)

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:28 am

Did you install an aftermarket crank pulley? Is that why you mention you forgot to add Loctite?

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:41 am

i believe he just supercharged his vibe... that could be the reason.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:49 am

No no aftermarket pulley, I changed the bolt out with the supercharger install.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:52 am

I think your right, I've been looking for an image like that for 2 days now.So it looks like the woodfuff key also holds the camshaft timing gear in place. I'll have to pull the valves and see what all happened. Sigh...and its snowing.....

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:29 am

I thought the woodruff key just prevented the shaft from spinning out of place.You put that bolt on at 150 ft/lbs and it still unscrewed? An ARP bolt (which it is) put on that tight shouldn't go anywhere, loctite or no loctite.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:51 am

I'm not entirely positive that I torqued it down all the way . My torque wrench is broken and I used the same technique that i use on my VW 1600, crank tight, then WAG.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:54 am

Well i pulled the valve cover, then spun the crank. the cams did not turn at all. I'm going to try to reset everything to 0deg and see if its ok. Might need new valves, is there an easy way to see if I screwed my valves? They all looked closed, or just starting on the lobes. Also when spinning the crank, the pistons moved easily and without any noise.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:57 am

Ya, probably wasn't torqued nearly close to where it needed to be. I doubt you damaged anything but you probably and to reset the timing and such.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:00 am

you should just give up take the supercharger off and send it to me... my torque wrench works

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:04 am

I'm hoping so, right now i'm looking for a chicken to wave over my head while working on this thing.I think I just need to turn the cams to 0deg, figure out which is cyl 1, turn the crank until cyl1 is at top (i'll try the dowel in the spark plug whole trick) and the dowel groove is at 12 O'Clock. does this sound right to anyone?So which one is cyl 1 and looking at the cams, which valves are intake and which ones are exhaust? i dont want to set it 180 out.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:06 am

Oh, tnparts guy, thanks for posting that PDF.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:26 am

Check the Matrixowners website. There are a bunch of PDF repair manuals. I'm sure there are instructions there.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:30 am

Valves should be fine if the pulley slipping was the only problem. I believe that these are non-interference motors and the only way to bang the valves is by overrevving and making them float. The cam not spinning with the crank is not good as there's a chain connecting them. Maybe the pulley slipped because something else went wrong first. http://www.spyderchat.com/1zzfe.pdf

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:05 am

Thanks Petrucci914, they did have the answer, the firing order is 1,3,4,2.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:07 am

Well thats good news with the valves, the crank timing pulley is not spinning with the crank because the woodruff key also fell out. I was able to find a crank pulley in a local junk yard today. The original one was all messed up and cracked.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:58 am

So here is what my pulley looks like.This one shows the crack.

Attached files

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:59 am

here is a picture of the inside of the pulley where the woodruff key gouged it out.

Attached files

kevera · Post by **kevera** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:36 pm

Looking back,did you notice and odd sounds before this happened.I think my tensioner is going,I swear it is,but after reading this,I may just have to check the bolt on my crank pulley.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:23 am

Yes there was a louder vibration coming from that area, i thought it was the ES mounts and the S/C.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:52 pm

yup its ******The crank was bent by all this and the end where the pully goes was messed up enough that re-tooling it was going to make it unsafe....so $2000 later, I should have a working car again....should have bought a new engine.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:31 pm

Oh, man. That sucks. I hope it all works out somehow. Note to self: always use Torque Wrench.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:00 am

sell me your supercharger set up and it will pay to get your car up and running again LOL

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:37 am

SO its worse than I thought. Just got a call from ToyDoctors. The valves, pistons, and crankshaft are all trashed.This supercharger is supposed to work on these engines without breaking stuff right?Do you all think that the engine might have been bent to begin with?

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:41 am

Shouldn't be the Supercharger's fault. They are very reliable and designed for the engine. I've read some people having issues with the Supercharger unit itself. There are some of the auto-tranny issues if you push it too hard for too long. Also some issues when running too rich for too long (mixing with oil, etc.). No issues consisting of what you're experiencing. Better off buying a new engine, unless you find it cheaper to replace said bad components with MWR parts.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:42 am

Man you have no idea how close I am to just doing that. I have to sell my 92 Chevy S10, and my 71 Karmann Ghia to try to recoup the costs.I really, hope this engine doesn't blow 100 miles down the road.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:52 am

You might as well pick up a low mileage used engine unless you plan to build up yours since it needs all new parts anyways. I can't believe all that destruction occurred from the crank pulley falling off. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:08 am

I'm having a used engine rebuilt with new timing parts, gonna cost $5KComes with 12 month/12000 mile warrenty.

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:22 am

Quote, originally posted by Raven Â»I can't believe all that destruction occurred from the crank pulley falling off. I was under the impression that the Corolla/Vibe/Matrix engines were interference type in which case it isn't that surprising. Loss of the key results in loss of synchronization of the valves & pistons so the pistons slam into any valves that happen to be open and also put severe forces on the crank and camshafts.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:39 am

I think you can get just about a brand new, fully rebuilt engine by MWR for about that price.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:43 am

Yea, I can get a stage 1 for $3050 not including shipping. I would still have to pay another 2K for engine install and work already done which brings me back up to the same cost, and unfortunately i cant wait for a freight delivery. I would of rather of had a MWR engine.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:14 am

Well got my vibe back today. two weeks, $5200,and one new (used) motor later.... Oh well, ToyDoctor did a great job pushing through to the end. It really gave them a hard time. I felt bad about kiilling the inner child of Mike (the guy working on my car), so I bought him a case of beer.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:16 am

Dyno is scheduled for Wednesday.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:57 am

Wow!For $5,200.00 I would have shoe-horned a fire breathing crate engine into the Vibe. That's a crazy price to pay.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:04 am

OUCH.....

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:20 am

yea, i could of had a blueprinted turbo'd powerplant for that price...all over a .10 cent woodruff key.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:48 am

Quote, originally posted by prathman Â»I was under the impression that the Corolla/Vibe/Matrix engines were interference type in which case it isn't that surprising. Loss of the key results in loss of synchronization of the valves & pistons so the pistons slam into any valves that happen to be open and also put severe forces on the crank and camshafts. Cam is driven off the crank by an internal chain. The pulley didn't cause this. The motor is non interference anyway so the only way to bend valves is by making them float. There's more to this than there appears. Severe knock bent a rod and started a chain reaction or the valves were bent earlier and messed things up enough for the rest to happen over time etc. Who knows what really caused this but the pulley, that the engine could run fine without, didn't cause this. Probably got sheared as the engine had a radical speed change when it blew.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:07 am

it was the woodruff key behind the pully that cause the most damage. It fell out so the crank was spinning in the crank timing gear, which caused the cams to stop spinning. the engine ate the vavles after that,

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:37 am

I sure don't know how it happened but a noninterference motor shouldn't eat valves without float. Maybe the bent crank got a piston high enough but why did the crank get bent. Wierd failure. Glad you're rollin again.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:27 am

hmm thats a good theory, It felt to me that the engine was too chewed up for what happened.

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:52 pm

Quote, originally posted by goodvibe Â»I sure don't know how it happened but a noninterference motor shouldn't eat valves without float.I agree, but what's your source for concluding that our engines are non-interference? I've seen speculation both ways, and this post on toyotanation.com seemed to know something about Toyota engine types: "All Toyota VVT-i motors are interference, which is why the new xR (GR, TR, UR, ZR, etc) series engines are chain driven. The AZ and ZZ motors are also chain driven, but the JZ, MZ, and UZ are not. So, the VVT-i JZ, MZ, and UZ will incur valve damage if the timing belt breaks." But I have yet to see anything definitive from Toyota. If you have something more authoritative I'd like to see it - I'd certainly prefer to find that the engine is non-interference.The damage that happened to the engine in this incident seems like pretty good confirmation that the engine is interference type. Losing the key shouldn't bend a crank by itself otherwise and it seems unlikely that the crank got bent by some unrelated cause in addition to the loss of the key.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:07 am

http://www.rpmrons.com/toyotatiming.htm ... ts...88262 http://www.rebuiltautoengines.....html People assume that they're interference type because of the timing chain but it was done for ease of maintenance and not protection. Valves definitely aren't strong rnough to bend a crank. You can bend a rod and save a crank. You can bang the valves and not have to replace anything else on the motor except the valves. Even if the motor was interference, there's more going on.

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:33 am

I'd still like to see something more definitive from Toyota. The first two cites give the same table and only have the 'interference' caution asterisk on engines with timing belts rather than chains. This may reflect the greater likelihood of breakage and/or DIY replacement and therefore the need for the caution warning. So the lack of the asterisk on a chain engine isn't too convincing. The third cite mentions that it isn't complete and the list of interference engines seems to be dated with no cars listed after '98 and only a few after '95.Agreed also that bending a crank is a bit unusual due to interference, but once parts start banging into each other the results aren't that predictable.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:09 am

Everything that I've read over the years have called it non-interference. I can find lots of those on message boards like your reference but didn't think they proved anything. There's also motors on that list that use belts and are also not listed as interference. As a replacement, which is what the link is to, either would get the warning at installation. The later motors aren't interference because Toyota, unlike Honda, never made many and completely went away from it. Again, nothing absolute but a chain or belt has nothing to do with whether a motor is or is not interference. The other link you didn't mention is well researched but also not directly from Toyota. How about you prove your side other than a message board link.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:18 am

I may have found it for you. http://www.corolland.com/forum...19189 Forum with a reply from Toyota that says you may be right. Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.We appreciate the opportunity to address your inquiry regarding your 2002 Toyota Corolla.Your vehicle has an interference engine. If the timing chain were to break, which is very unlikely, the valves and the pistons would come into contact, which can cause major engine damage.Toyota does not have a recommended time to change the timing chain. However, if it becomes elongated, it can make a slapping or rattling noise, which would be an indication to check the chain as well as the tensioner and guide. If it has become too elongated, the chain will need to be replaced. If the tensioner and guide have excessive wear, they will need to be replaced. At some point, if head work is done or if the engine is rebuilt, the timing chain, tensioner, and guide should be checked and replaced as needed. . Still didn't cause this blow up.

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:27 am

Previous comment deleted after goodvibe posted the above.

4azdmunky · Post by **4azdmunky** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:47 am

Cool, I was getting confused with the back and forth conversation Note to self for future reference, dont be dumb, do ALL of the steps!

kevera · Post by **kevera** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:42 am

Quote, originally posted by 4azdmunky Â»Cool, I was getting confused with the back and forth conversation Me too.Glad you got it all sorted out regardless of what caused it.Just make sure it won't happen again.