2009 Drivetrain Discussion

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:26 am

Everyone seems to be discussing this and making guesses on what will propel the new Vibe and Matrix. I think that it'll get the 2.4l 4-Cyclinder from the Scion tC and the GT may have the same engine with the supercharger, or possibly the Camry V6 if there's enough room. Well, I read a Scion xB review today and it is based on the Corolla platform (as is the Vibe and Matrix) and it has the same engine from the tC. So, it seems like this will most likely be in the Vibe Base. The GT is all speculation now, depending on the expansion of the engine bay.Here is the link to the xB review: http://www.autoblog.com/2007/1...on-xb/...and the pertinent blurb:"The more diminutive original was propelled by a 1.5L four-cylinder that just wouldn't cut it in the 2008 model, especially an extra 600 lbs. to carry around. So the Corolla architecture brings with it the 2.4L four-cylinder used in the tC coupe and the larger Camry sedan. Output jumps from 103 to 158 HP and twist goes from 101 lb-ft to 162 lb-ft. Whatever else we may think of the new xB, it can certainly get out of it's own way. Unfortunately, it's not all that refined in doing so. The initial throttle tip-in feels way too aggressive. Launching in any kind of dignified manner requires a very gentle toe on the accelerator. While some people may like the idea of chirping the front tires at every intersection, on wet or slippery surfaces the standard traction control will kick in regularly, but back to that later."

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:32 am

Is this cup half empty or half full.The trend seems to be to make successive models bigger and more powerful. Today's Civic was yesteday's Accord. Today's Rav4 was yesterday's Highlander; etc. etc.The xB is an example - had to make it bigger so needed a more powerful engine. Gas mileage of course declines.What will a 2009 2.4L Vibe deliver. More weight, bigger engine, bigger tires, less economy? I thought the present Vibe was an ideal compromise between size and economy. Maybe by the time I need to trade, the Honda Fit will grow to be Vibe size.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:37 am

The Vibe can get a bigger engine without getting bulkier overall. Even though fuel efficiency is a good thing, it's not the main deciding factor with the new Vibe. It's meant for people in their early 20s, of which fuel efficiency isn't the number 1 concern. Most people would gladly go down a few MPGs to have a lot more power.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:57 am

The new Vibe is meant for people in their twenties? Of all the cars I've seen, the Vibe/Matrix has the widest age demographic of any. I know and have seen 20 to 80 year olds driving them. To limit the target group to the twenties would be a huge mistake by GM/Toyota and sales figures would tumble. As for drivetrain, what's wrong with what we've got. My '97 Subaru has a 2.5L boxer engine and they are still being used in the '08s. It keeps tooling and R&D costs down. If the engine is capable, reliable and fuel efficient, keep on using it.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:59 am

Not necessarily. Instead of getting 5% of sales from age 20-30, 25% of sales from 30-40, etc etc............they can make 75% of their sales come from those in their twenties. A wide demographic does not necessitate and increase in sales. The Vibe/Matrix was developed for those in their 20s. It didn't work out that way and that is why they're changing a lot with the new model. The current engine is just way too small, especially for their market.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:21 am

Initially sales figures would have to drop. The only way to stop this would be to make such a huge splash in the market as to convince all the kids to stop buying Hondas and such and start buying Vibes. Not an easy thing to accomplish. Also you would need to fill the gap in order to keep the older buyers from straying to different brands. Market share is what it's all about.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:20 pm

I was 61 when I bought my 2003 Vibe in Jan. 2003. I'd bet someone has done an owner age question on this board and I'd bet the 20-30 group was not in the majority.

NascarXprt · Post by **NascarXprt** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:01 pm

well when they first launched the Vibe back in 02/03 their target group was the 20 year old group, but.... it did the exact opposite more of the older crowd (no offence to anyone on the boards) like mid 40's - upper 60's were the big buyers. so i can see Pontiac trying to get the younger crowd into getting the new 09 Vibe. thats why the GT was axed cause most of the older crowd is not into the big power and performance.

michaelgt · Post by **michaelgt** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:29 pm

I am pretty confident that the '09 will have the 1.8 and the 2.4. Therefore, it can reach a broader market (economy or performance).

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:10 pm

I doubt that. The 1.8l is actually rated at lower horsepower than the current 1.8l. NO WAY would they underpower it again.

Vivid_Art · Post by **Vivid_Art** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:09 am

MORE POWER dammit!! i'll bypass my dream car (Volvo C30)...IF pontiac makes the car more stylish and more powerful! I would get one then and im sure the price would be way under the c30 which i will never be able to afford...atleast not yet...my vote is for a 2.4L!

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:16 am

I bet my kidneys on it getting the 2.4L. It's a guarantee. As for the GT configuration I'm not sure. But I'm thinking it'll get the Supercharged 2.4L. A V6 or HO I4 isn't as exciting to our demographic as the word "supercharger." haha.

VforVIBE · Post by **VforVIBE** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:25 am

Quote, originally posted by Petrucci914 Â»Whatever else we may think of the new xB, it can certainly get out of it's own way. Unfortunately, it's not all that refined in doing so. The initial throttle tip-in feels way too aggressive. Launching in any kind of dignified manner requires a very gentle toe on the accelerator. While some people may like the idea of chirping the front tires at every intersection, on wet or slippery surfaces the standard traction control will kick in regularly, but back to that later."I wasted a xB once... no wait, it was twice... I love my Vibe.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:28 am

Quote, originally posted by VforVIBE Â»I wasted a xB once... no wait, it was twice... I love my Vibe.You mean the poor underpowered sluggish Vibe with only a 1.8L engine?

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:32 am

??The original xB had a 1.5l.

Kamikaze · Post by **Kamikaze** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:50 am

Personally I drive my car like an old fart. I'm in it more for the gas milage than the power, so to keep the 1.8 would be fine for me.I think with new engine management they could have the base with a 2.4 and still get the same gas milage we are today.

NascarXprt · Post by **NascarXprt** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:50 am

Quote, originally posted by Kamikaze Â»Personally I drive my car like an old fart. I'm in it more for the gas milage than the power, so to keep the 1.8 would be fine for me.I think with new engine management they could have the base with a 2.4 and still get the same gas milage we are today.with the 5-speed manual at least.but as long as all the trim levels have MORE POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whelan · Post by **Whelan** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:13 am

My $.02, but when converted to Canadian its...oh wait $.02. Nevermind that...There is a new 1.8L being used by Toyota with 158hp. This could potentially be the base engine. The 2.4L is currently being used in the tc Scion with 164hp. So that is another viable option. And it could be bumper a little higher for a GT/XRS model. But the issue is, why would you put an engine, granted more displacement=more torque but with the same power as the last GT/XRS.I personally could go a few ways on this. 1) Base models get 1.8L 158hp I-4, GT/XRS get the 2.4L with a little bump to say 170hp I-4.2) Base models get the 2.4L with 164hp, the GT/XRS pickup a 2.4L Supercharged with say close to 200hp. 3) Base gets the 2.4L 164hp, and the GT/XRS can get the 3.3L 205hp V6 found in the Toyota Camry Solara.4) GT/XRS get the 3.5L V6. This is not out of the whack cause look what they did to the Rav 4. It competes with the CR-V that only has one engine choice and they offered this crazy combo giving the Rav4 274hp! So why not drop it into a XRS to prove they are moving into performance territory once again. And the AWD version would be available with the GT/XRS as well now since they could use the system from the Rav4.Another thing to think of here is these cars will def. be heavier, so more displacement/torque from the engine will help. So a 2.4L would be sensible in getting the car up and going. When I had the tc as a loaner, that thing had some decent pull for it's size.And moving along, you still could put in the fact that Pontiac may be using their own engine this time around, by dropping in the 2.2L EcoTec with 140hp or so in the base, and giving the S/C version from the Cobalt SS, Redline with just over 200hp. It's possible.There are just so many combinations I hope they do not dissapoint. And you may actually get better mileage from a higher displacement engine. The engine works less to get the car up to speed and moving since it handles the weight better, therefore less revving and work from the engine equates to better mileage.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:17 am

It'll definetely get a boost in power, but must still remain efficient and have enough chassis space to handle said engine. The underpowered engine is the Vibe/Matrix was a major complain among AutoMags and websites. The supercharged 2.4 would inspire excitement and still be very efficient. A V6 would be very cool but would most likely lead to a large decrease in mpg and also mess up the weight distribution a bit.

Whelan · Post by **Whelan** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:19 am

Oh I agree that the V6 would def. decrease mileage and make the car heavy upfront. Unless they did suspension mods to it as well and beefed up the struts and spring rates up front to compensate.I am still holding my vote for a 2.4L and a 2.4L S/C cause they do offer the kit for the tc for it, so why not just have it be an option and be done with it.

hank the tank · Post by **hank the tank** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:57 am

I want TURBO AWD and thats it.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:01 am

haha, good luck with that wish.

hank the tank · Post by **hank the tank** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:03 am

Ya, GM doing something fun who knows.

Whelan · Post by **Whelan** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:40 am

GM would be more into using a Supercharger than a turbo, they already have them in their stockpile.

VforVIBE · Post by **VforVIBE** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:17 am

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»You mean the poor underpowered sluggish Vibe with only a 1.8L engine?I mean: base, 2006, 2 passengers, loaded down with camping supplies, Moonstone Vibe.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:24 am

The TC supercharger is a centrifugal type rather than screw type and is about as slow to build power as an old school turbocharger.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:19 pm

ok if you people want a fast wagon wait for the HHR SS if you want the yota engine vibe...well the we'll have to wait but i think we/you will be sad as i am sure the base will be the dual vvt-i 1.8 and the gt a 2.4l no FI unless TRD makes it. we should start a bet pool. what in the world would make anyone think GM would warranty a FI yota engine, i think that would confuse more GM repair shops than its worth

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:14 pm

Silly you. They already deal with the Cobal SS and its supercharger. But, I don't really trust GM techs with anything, let alone a supercharger. I'm still betting on the 2.4l for the base. I'm not sure about the GT.........the supercharger would be awesome.

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:18 pm

I'm betting we'll still get the same drivetrains. I'm not expecting anything different.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:23 am

I never thought it would be true, but a v6 will be in these little things.from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Matrix"2.4 L 2AZ-FE I4, 158 hp (2009-)2.5 L 4GR-FSE V6, 204 hp (2009-)"so the 2.4 from the tC and camry and the 2.5 from the solara and other things..... nice

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:25 am

It feels so great to be right.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:31 am

...i just wonder how a lil v6 will propel these things... if it can beat a HHR SS maybe ill stay with a vibe

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:37 am

eh, I dunno. It would really depend on the weight comparison. The HHR SS has about 55 more horsepower. I'm sure the Vibe is a lot lighter but depends on by how much. I'm going to convince my mom to get one of the new Vibes for sure. So what engine do we think will be on the AWD system? The FJ Cruiser, which uses that same V6 (I believe) has an AWD system so that would make sense. I dunno. If that was the case, put me down for one!

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:39 am

I'm curious as to where that information originated.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:45 am

From the recesses of my soul, that's where.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:49 am

the 2.0 turbo would romp on these vibe/trix's...i was just joking about who would win . if its on wiki it has to be true i think you can check to see who edited it and it may tell you...Ill have to go test drive these when they come out...then a SS cobalt/hhr with my friend.

coldmm803 · Post by **coldmm803** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:14 am

if this info is true, it would make my day

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:19 am

It is true...............so go ahead, punk, MAKE...MY..DAY!

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:19 pm

Quote, originally posted by northvibe Â»I never thought it would be true, but a v6 will be in these little things.from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Matrix"2.4 L 2AZ-FE I4, 158 hp (2009-)2.5 L 4GR-FSE V6, 204 hp (2009-)"so the 2.4 from the tC and camry and the 2.5 from the solara and other things..... niceWell perhaps Pontiac will finally have their way in focusing sales to the 20 year olds who don't have the proverbial pot to do it in and abandoning the more affluent cash paying "older" generation. I am sure there is more profit to made on the GMAC financing side anyway.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:15 pm

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»Well perhaps Pontiac will finally have their way in focusing sales to the 20 year olds who don't have the proverbial pot to do it in and abandoning the more affluent cash paying "older" generation. I am sure there is more profit to made on the GMAC financing side anyway.Just because the older generation has more disposable income, doesn't make targeting them the most profitable. Marketing is almost always geared towards the 18-35 year olds. That is where the trends are and word of mouth. They have plenty of other models geared towards different generations. This one was to be the younger generation, and this time they're going to try and do it right.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:37 pm

well the older gen people dont typically mod their cars they buy them cheap and keep them stock. the younger people get a car, mod it and if its popular more people buy it... i see more potential for the youngin's. Problem i see is if they dont offer FI then it may be a let down for some people seeking a nice wagon with some umph.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:39 pm

You can turbo anything if you have the money The V6 will have some balls, though. And exhaust mods and such will show even bigger gains than on a 4-banger.

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:45 pm

I don't think GM owns GMAC anymore.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:46 pm

but dude there is no NA replacement for FI. I like that TRD made the SC for our cars it was a nice little upgrade and was tested to be safe and keep warranty. You see those greddy kits etc. that requires tons of money, time and tuning and the reliability drops like crazy. I like having a FI option from the car manf.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:02 am

uh oh. We (I) may be wrong. Here are the engine specs for the Corolla:The CE, LE and S models will be equipped with an all-new 1.8-litreengine. The 16-valve, DOHC four-cylinder engine with Dual VVT-i (VariableValve Timing with intelligence), produces 132 hp at 6,000 rpm and 128 lb-ft oftorque at 4,400 rpm. A five-speed manual transmission is standard with the1.8-litre engine, and a four-speed automatic Electronically ControlledTransmission (ECT) will also be available.For those who crave even more horsepower and torque, there is the 2.4-litre engine. This engine is completely redesigned for use in the newCorolla XRS model. The 16-valve DOHC engine with VVT-i produces 158 hp at6,000 rpm and 162 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm. The 2.4-litre engine will bepaired with standard five-speed manual and optional five-speed automatictransmissions.

michaelgt · Post by **michaelgt** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:26 am

Quote, originally posted by NibCrom Â»I don't think GM owns GMAC anymore.GM owns 49% of GMAC.

michaelgt · Post by **michaelgt** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:29 am

Quote, originally posted by Petrucci914 Â»uh oh. We (I) may be wrong. Not all of us were wrong.

Petrucci914 · Post by **Petrucci914** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:29 am

Quote, originally posted by michaelgt Â»GM owns 49% of GMAC.I pwn 82% of all your n00bs.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:45 am

if its the 1.8 dual vvt-i and 2.4, i totally called it if not...my bad

NibCrom · Post by **NibCrom** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:09 am

Quote, originally posted by michaelgt Â»GM owns 49% of GMAC.Ah. Did they use own 100%?

2009 Drivetrain Discussion

2009 Drivetrain Discussion

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