Does your engine sound exactly like this when cold(read post first)?

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by Neouka »Personally I don't think it's hurting anything mechanically, so I'm not overly worried about it, really... Mostly it just makes me laugh.I'm not worried about any mechanical damage occurring, but I'm a little upset that my engine is burning a richer than normal fuel mixture for 2 minutes each day in winter. It's not about the cost of the extra fuel during those 2 minutes, it's the amount of unnecessary carbon that can be deposited on the walls of my combustion chambers.The major damage is psychological and how this noise makes our cars so unattractive when being resold. That is why I have been fighting so hard for a solution since nearly 2 years.Please vote in case you haven't already.

[stoutvibe]

Mine usually starts doing it after about 30 seconds, but then again that seems to vary with the temperature also (closer to 30 = about 60 seconds). Also, my vibe usually does it more rythmic, like in your audio clip - it isn't usually as random as in the video.

[Neouka]

Voted.But the solution to the resale value.... sell your car in the summer

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by Neouka »But the solution to the resale value.... sell your car in the summer That would be fraudulent. I'm not interested in that.

[sylvainber]

i got my car back yesterday after they replaced the O2 sensor (after the car threw a steady CEL this week)This morning was the first cold start (and it was cold... 6F; note: the car sleeps in the garage... at around 35F last night). I assume the ECU got reset yesterday while the car was being worked on.I observed the usual idle hunting this morning after driving to the street corner... about 45 secs... and time for the car to be exposed to the real cold).i can tell the ECU is trying to regulate RPM's around 2000... it would oscillate between 1800-2200. I must say that it does so at a lower frequency than what i saw in your video. And if i don't drive (and let the car idle), it stabilizes at 2000 until it can climb down from there as the engine begins to warm up.They gave me a TSB that supposedly declared moderate idle hunting as normal in cold weather (Pontiac). I don't have it with me this morning... i'll reprint it here this weekend. I will also start the car up tomorrow morning and let it idle without driving it (i'll leave the car outside overnight).At this point, i'm satisfied with the way the car runs. The idle hunting is withing a 10% margin and relatively short lived so i don't consider it harmful to the car. sylvain

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »I assume the ECU got reset yesterday while the car was being worked on.That is not always guaranteed. It is possible to simply disconnect the oxygen sensor's electrical connector and unscrew the sensor when replacing it, without actually powering down the computer.Some CEL lights go off by themselves within a day or two after a faulty sensor is replaced by a good one. Other error codes require the dealer by law to force the CEL to be reset using his scan tool. But resetting the CEL light with the scantool may not always force all the data in the computer to be reset to factory default. It depends on which sensor code is being reset.So it may be that your computer will need a few days to update its database using the new data being generated by your replacement O2 sensor. If your previous bad O2 sensor played a direct or indirect role in allowing your idle hunting to occur, then within a day or two, you should see your idle hunting completely disappear.Or you can also avoid waiting the two days and simply pull your 15 amp EFI fuse for a minute and that should force the database to be reset. Your next cold morning start should be without hunting and the hunting should never return.You have the choice to force an immediate reset or wait for the computer to slowly correct itself.Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »I observed the usual idle hunting this morning after driving to the street corner... about 45 secs... and time for the car to be exposed to the real cold).This probably indicates that the original cause of the hunting is still there and is unrelated to your O2 sensor replacement, or your problem is cured, but the computer did not get its database cleared at the dealership, and your computer will need several days to update its database, after which, the hunting should stop.Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »i can tell the ECU is trying to regulate RPM's around 2000... it would oscillate between 1800-2200. I must say that it does so at a lower frequency than what i saw in your video. And if i don't drive (and let the car idle), it stabilizes at 2000 until it can climb down from there as the engine begins to warm up.You have had a very cold morning with a 5 degree F. temperature. At that same temperature, my car also has a hunting cadence that is much slower than when it is 32 degrees F. outside. That is because the engine oil is very thick and that makes it take longer for the engine to build up speed following each fuel cut/resume.Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »They gave me a TSB that supposedly declared moderate idle hunting as normal in cold weather (Pontiac). I don't have it with me this morning... i'll reprint it here this weekend. I will also start the car up tomorrow morning and let it idle without driving it (i'll leave the car outside overnight).This is the first time that any manufacturer has officially made a written claim that idle hunting is normal in cold weather. My questions to Pontiac/Toyota would be: 1)What is different about the few percent of cars that do idle hunt when cold, compared to the over 90% of identical cars which don't? 2) Anyone buying a second hand car will surely want to choose from the 90% that don't have idle hunting. Why should the owner of a car that hunts have a reduced chance of quickly reselling his/her car at the same price as a car without idle hunting?3) Why would anyone want to buy a (new or second-hand) Pontiac/Toyota car that has a "characteristic" that no other brand of car (like Ford or Honda) has?Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »At this point, i'm satisfied with the way the car runs. The idle hunting is withing a 10% margin and relatively short lived so i don't consider it harmful to the car. My only concern is how much carbon is being deposited on the inside walls of my combustion chamber while my car runs in an unnaturally rich fashion 2 minutes for every morning in winter, every winter of this car's life.

[montreal]

UPDATE:Toyota Canada advised me today that the fix will not be arriving before the end of 2006, but in early 2007.The good news is that it will be delivered in the form of a software (firmware) update to the ECU.This would indicate that Toyota has done some serious research into the cause and solution.It is unknown at this time if there will be a TSB associated with this fix.Toyota Canada says that this fix will be made available if necessary to other Canadian Toyota owners who might require it to solve an identical problem in their cars.Unless there are different rules (EPA?) that apply in the United States, I personally hope that if this fix works in Canada, it will be quickly offered in the States as well. Pontiac Vibe owners on both sides of the border might want to enquire if they will eventually have access to this same fix, given that the same engineering team originally developed this shared motor for both Vibe and Matrix and Corolla.

[montreal]

Now for the news we all have been patiently waiting for since 2 years.The long awaited software patch was installed on my car last friday morning, February 9, 2007.It works. Yes, Toyota fully understood the problem and came up with an authentic solution.The installation of any software version in my car was the equivalent of doing an ECU reset in that with or without this patch, my car would be expected to immediately operate properly, and it did. It would take several days for me to begin to sense any durable improvement.Following the installation, I left the city for a weekend trip to ski country, a hundred miles north of Montreal.The car spent its first night with a low of about minus 14 F, colder than I can ever recall in the last 5 years. The next morning the car started and the peak idle never went above 2300 with no pulsing at any time. The rate at which the rpms dropped progressively over the next 3 minutes was quite impressive. Later that day, I started the car for the second time, and the results were similar.The car spent the second night with a low of about minus 15 F. The next morning, the motor raced above 2500 within 10 seconds, followed by 4 pulses, after which, the engine quickly slowed down progressively without any pulses. I am going to suggest that the 2500 rpms peak was triggered by the excessively cold overnight temperature and by the fact that the ECU had not completed it adaptation process which usually takes several days. It would appear that where the safety limit used to be 2300 rpm before the motor would be temperarily cut, it has now been revised upwards by 200 rpm to 2500. The car was restarted one more time that same afternoon without the peak rpms hitting 2500, and with no pulsing. I then brought the car back to the city last sunday night.The coldest it has been this week where I live is minus 9.5 degrees F. , this being relatively warmer than the minus 15 degrees of last weekend.The car has stayed outdoors and been started at least twice each day for the last four days. At no time has there been any pulsing.I conclude that the ECU recalibration has solved the problem.At this point in time, there are at least 19 other car owners in Canada (14 Toyota/5 Pontiac) and at least 17 other car owners in the United States (13 Toyota/4 Pontiac) which share this problem.Most of you are anxiously awaiting news about how to obtain the same fix.I have received so far mixed messages directly and indirectly from Toyota Canada as to whether or not a technical service bulletin will be eventually published. Publishing is expected to add several months to any rollout.I have no doubt that you would like to receive your ECU update while it is still cold enough for your cars to demonstrate that the fix is indeed working rather than being obliged to wait until next autumn.I hope you will approach your dealerships being respectful of the fact that a little patience with Toyota and Pontiac will be necessary, as they are still in the preliminary stage.Now you know.

[Neouka]

You have a Matrix tho... I wonder if Pontiac will even offer it? I'm also the second owner of my car.. and it's about 1000 km from being out of powertrain warranty. So it seems very likely that I'll never get the update anyway...

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by Neouka »I wonder if Pontiac will even offer it? It is possible that Vibe and Corolla share the exact same engine software and for one hour's labour time, you may one day be able to purchase the fix at a Toyota dealership.I can't see why Pontiac would deny its customers access to the same product.Given you're nearly out of warranty, it would not hurt to ask now at your Pontiac dealership.The ECU warranty may last 8 years as it is a pollution control device.

[ArcsVibe]

Boy I am glad that FINALLY they were able to fix your issue Kudos to you for your patience in dealing with them I guess it is true that good things come to those who wait...

[sylvainber]

just a note on the idle hunting...i brought my car in last december... one week before the initial warranty ran out... for a CEL and mentioned the idle hunting in cold weather.the dealership changed an O2 sensor and cleared the CEL... with the idle hunting remaining in cold weather.What i've observed since then is that when the car hunts for its idle speed (if i drive it while cold... it doesn't do it if i just let it warm up on its own, undriven) it only does it 4 times... and then it stabilizes at 2200 RPM until it warms up enough to allow the RPM to climb down gradually.The latest installment in the story is that the CEL has returned since december and will be on for a bout a week and then go off for a few days. i have noticed a faint sulfur smell in the car when coming to a stop from a coasting speed (say 45mpg, 5th gear ~1800 RPM).I dropped the car off at my dealer's this morning... they're running the diagnostics on it today. They didn't give me a hard time about reopening the warranty case they originally created in december.i will let you know what the CEL:part 2 comes out to sylvain

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by ArcsVibe » I guess it is true that good things come to those who wait...Thanks for your answer.It took me nearly 3 years to realize that what the dealership had told me in 2002 was not correct - that "Many new engines like yours idle differently from past generations".Once the dealership failed repeatedly to solve the issue, I turned to on-line forums as a way to expedite a solution. The volume of postings on this and 4 other forums was very helpful in getting Toyota to re-open my case.It was the president of the APA (Automobile Protection Association of Canada) who gave me the courage last fall to ask Toyota to explain the additional 15 month delay.A solution was delivered 4 months following my question.So I owe all my thanks to these forums and the APA.In particular, it is thanks to the GENVIBE forum that I was finally able to find a permenant site to host the audio recording of the sound. This recording has been instrumental in motivating people to express an opinion and take a stand.

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »the dealership changed an O2 sensor and cleared the CEL... with the idle hunting remaining in cold weather.My O2 sensor was changed as an attempt to solve the idle hunting. Within a few days the hunting was back.Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »What i've observed since then is that when the car hunts for its idle speed it only does it 4 times... and then it stabilizes at 2200 RPM until it warms up enough to allow the RPM to climb down gradually.My recalibrated computer did 4 pulses last weekend within a few seconds of starting, as the engine quickly climbed above 2500 rpm. The car had sat overnight in minus 14 degree F. temperature and that might have caused the high speed. I think that any similar engine would have done the same thing.The idle hunting problem addressed by this thread concerns the instability that only begins in the second minute following a cold engine startup, never the first 20 seconds.Quote, originally posted by sylvainber » i have noticed a faint sulfur smell in the car when coming to a stop from a coasting speed (say 45mpg, 5th gear ~1800 RPM).If your O2 sensor is working poorly, then the engine may be running too rich and that could explain the smell, particulary where certain brands of gasoline are involved which have a higher sulfur content.

[sylvainber]

i have a question regarding the sulfur smell (btw, it is faint with my car but comes on when i stop at somewhat regular intervals)most gasoline formulations (and all the ones i use) around here contain 10% ethanol. Is ethanol used this commonly now in canada as well? would that have any effect on the fuel/air mixture calibration?sylvain

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »i have a question regarding the sulfur smell (btw, it is faint with my car but comes on when i stop at somewhat regular intervals)most gasoline formulations (and all the ones i use) around here contain 10% ethanol. Is ethanol used this commonly now in canada as well? would that have any effect on the fuel/air mixture calibration?sylvainThe only reason you notice it when you stop is that the wind is blowing in a direction that carries the smell from the tail pipe to the grill in front of your windshield that lets outdoor air into your car.If the wind was blowing in a different direction, you would not be aware that it is there.I have not noticed ethanol at any pumps in the Montreal area. Perhaps in other Canadian cities.The fuel air mixture is set instantly by the O2 sensor. If the sensor detects too much or too little oxygen, then the computer will correct the imbalance.If ethanol requires a different amount of oxygen to burn compared to gasoline, then I imagine the computer will make the proper adjustment so that the unburnt by-products of the combustion are minimized.

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by montreal »In particular, it is thanks to the GENVIBE forum that I was finally able to find a permenant site to host the audio recording of the sound. This recording has been instrumental in motivating people to express an opinion and take a stand.genvibe is really good for that. It has been around for almost all the existence of Vibes and Matrixes (only 2554 vibes had been sold in the US before genvibe was online), and almost everything that has ever been posted here is still here. Some other sites have come and gone, others have thrown away older content due to server constraints. genvibe is one of few forums that allow people to upload attachments. Other sites that do not allow uploads lose content when members move on, or change web hosts, and images and other useful info is lost to later forum members.A big thanks to you montreal, for surveying the communities and forcing Toyota to admit and correct the problem. Now, if only Pontiac will follow up with some option to fix it for us vibers.I have heard, but cannot swear that the ECU program is different for Matrixes and for Vibes, and also that the ECU is not flash programmable. I would expect that a Matrix ECU would work fine in a Vibe, but can't say for sure.

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »i have a question regarding the sulfur smell (btw, it is faint with my car but comes on when i stop at somewhat regular intervals)most gasoline formulations (and all the ones i use) around here contain 10% ethanol. Is ethanol used this commonly now in canada as well? would that have any effect on the fuel/air mixture calibration?sylvainThere is a tech service bulletin on Vibes that calls for a catalytic converter replacement to correct the sulfur smell, some info in http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=20143 or do a search for "egg"I don't think ethanol itself contains sulfur, but petroleum must, it might be possible that ethanol affects the burn of the fuel to produce more sulfur smell, but I suggest read the thread about the TSB and ask the dealer if you can get them to use that to give you a new cat.converter for free. That's what I would try if I had the sulfur smell problem.

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »I have heard, but cannot swear that the ECU program is different for Matrixes and for Vibes, and also that the ECU is not flash programmable. I would expect that a Matrix ECU would work fine in a Vibe, but can't say for sure. I once walked into a Pontiac dealership with a small handheld audio recorder and asked the service agant to listen to the recording and say if he ever heard that before.He hadn't but said that he thought the ECU program in the Canadian Vibe was different from the American model, particulary to address the large difference in the winter climate.He also said some Toyota owners had been coming in asking to have the Pontiac Vibe program (Canadian version I assume) installed.I believe all these 1zz-fe engines are built the same way and I wonder how different the software really is between Corolla, Matrix, and Vibe.I don't know if all the ECU control program is flashable, but the table that contains the factory default fuel table definitely is and that is what has been changed in my car.

[Bectech]

Interesting reading, montreal. I live in upstate NY and this same thing is happening in my 2004 Vibe. I was getting worried so I figured I would check here to see if anyone else has the problem. I bought this car new (in Feb 2004) and this is the 1st winter it has happened (but this has been a colder month than usual for this area). Same scenario as yours though.. it only happens when it have been sitting in below freezing temps for many hours. I'm long past my warranty period so I wonder how much the software fix would cost.Becp.s. yes, I voted

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by Bectech » I'm long past my warranty period so I wonder how much the software fix would cost.Thanks for voting.If Vibe warranties are similar to Matrix warranties, then there may still be an 8 year (80,000 mile) warranty that covers major anti-pollution equipment. The engine computer should be a key anti-pollution component, but there may be exceptions.While there is nothing defective about your engine's computer hardware, it may be argueable that your idle hunting problem is a direct consequence of the engine software not being properly configured in order to maintain a stable idle in engines which have some un-diagnosable mechanical characteristic that causes the hunting. Your dealer may try to argue that your engine has experienced normal wear and tear which indirectly causes the hunting and that the cost of any remedy should be incurred by the owner.It took my dealership only 30 minutes to install the software patch and do a road test, following additional time previously spent to transfer the binary file from one computer to another. I would not expect the total cost to exceed one hour of shop time, unless some obstacle prevents the mechanic from smoothly doing his/her job properly, like inexperience in flashing the engine computer.It is not clear to me if, and how fast, the knowledge about the software patch will filter over from Toyota Canada to GM in the USA. If it doesn't happen, you should approach a Toyota dealership asking about the possibility of them flashing your computer software. I have heard of the reverse taking place in Canada, Toyota Matrix owners having Vibe software downloaded to their engine computers.Please post your experience in dealing with your Pontiac dealer.

[MRK]

I recently purchased a used 2003 Vibe, 5-speed with power package and when I test drove it on March 23 it was a warm day and it didn't idle wildly. A few days latter when the temperature dropped I was shocked to hear and see the engine rpm's surging up and down after starting as described in this thread. One more "Yes" vote added to the poll.From the 2007 Vibe brochure, the GM Warranty includes an 8-year / 130,000 km coverage on catalytic converters and powertrain control modules (PCMs). I hope this was also the case for 2003.

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by MRK »From the 2007 Vibe brochure, the GM Warranty includes an 8-year / 130,000 km coverage on catalytic converters and powertrain control modules (PCMs). I hope this was also the case for 2003.Last year I informed the EPA about this issue.I told them that we had idle hunting coinciding with unusually high rpms following a cold start.The EPA now knows that Toyota Canada installed a software patch on my car and they will be expressing their desire that Americans benefit from the same patch. They plan to contact Toyota USA.The EPA is not concerned about idle hunting, but they are interested in knowing if the higher cold idle rpms create extra emissions which would affect a car's chances of passing a pollution test.While I am very pleased that the software patch entirely eliminated my idle hunting, after 2 weeks, the cold idle rpms have returned almost, but not quite to their pre software patch level.That knowledge will not provide much comfort to the EPA.

[sylvainber]

I haven't contributed to this thread in a while... so here's an update:had a primary O2 sensor replaced in december (car was 3 yrs old) after a CEL started coming on/off at regular intervals... CEL went away and returned in januarywent back to dealer in january... same O2 sensor... same error code... luckily, the technician was thinking and called GM as this didn't make sense... they decided to replace my catalytic converter (i was getting sulfur puffs more regularly than before.the tech talked to GM engineers and they decided he should replace my intake manifold seals... which were back-ordered nationwide... problem with the early design maybe?i'm going in next week for the new seals to be installedmeanwhile, my 'idle hunting' remains in cold temperature although i have observed that if i drive the car cold and stop at a light, triggering the idle hunting, it only does it 4 times until it settles at ~2200 rpms.i want to say it finds it's idle faster since the cat has been replaced but that could be wishful thinking overall i can only thank my dealer's service dept for really looking into it and giving me hassle-free service.the only thing left is the dashboard rattle behind the glove compartment door... it goes away when i press down on the open compartment door... so i'll be taking the door off (and check on my cabin air filter... ) to see what's rattling (i plan on driving with both the door and filter removed and reintroduce the pieces one by one)in my case, it does appear that my cat was failing (sulfur smell... fuel economy creeping down... O2 sensor/CEL...). I hope this round of troubleshooting took care of it.i'll post again if anything else comes upsylvain

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by sylvainber »the only thing left is the dashboard rattle behind the glove compartment door... it goes away when i press down on the open compartment door... so i'll be taking the door off (and check on my cabin air filter... ) to see what's rattling (i plan on driving with both the door and filter removed and reintroduce the pieces one by one)I had a rattle in there, turns out a brace had come off http://forums.genvibe.com/zero...13579I just put up with the idle hunting, and now it's too warm here to have the problem. It will be interesting to hear if the intake seals have any effect on yours.

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon » It will be interesting to hear if the intake seals have any effect on yours. If input seals are leaking, then a quantity of air different from what the air flow sensor measures is entering the engine, and with this happening during the cold startup period when the O2 sensor is too cold to function, that could explain higher rpms and the potential for idle hunting.Unmetered air leaks, whether in intake manifold seals or pin holes in rubber vacuum lines, have been listed in this thread as a possible root cause of the idle hunting.Have a great summer.

[joatmon]

somebody faked me out by voting in this old poll, I thought there was a new post. Anyway, when I replaced my intake manifold gasket, I initially forgot to hook up one hose, and then I got warm idle hunting, so I can testify that intake leaks can wreak havoc on idle

[03VibeOttawa]

I really like when informative older threads like this get bumped once in a while. (Not that it was me who bumped this one)

[Bedlam]

just found this thread since i have had this issue on my 03 base since i bought it. The issue is apparently only on the 03/04 vibes with cable driven TB's and the software fix does not appear to have made things much better since it returned to a small extent on Montreal's car.Has anyone with a 05+ Vibe/trix had this happen with a throttle by wire setup? I know the 07 i had before never experienced anything like this and was driven up north for most of the winter with hundreds of cold starts beyond 100,000miles.

[Bedlam]

so here's an odd development. My 03 vibe that i bought with 84k miles on has had the cold idle surging since i bought it. below freezing temps when stone cold it would hunt for the idle without fail.With winter officially here, i decided to do a little PM on the car over the last month to see if general maintenance items would affect the problem since mine sounded 100% identical to the sound clip posted as well as the same rpm range.Did my plugs in December. car smoothed nicely through the power band (113k miles). same idle hunting still occurred though. 2 nights ago i changed my serpentine belt and idler pulley/arm+piston and the mornings since have been quite cold including today which was about 12 degrees F outside. car has sat at 2050-2100 for a couple minutes and slowly backed down as it warmed up. I have no clue why that would be affecting it, but it is for me. This issue may very well return, but i thought it was a crazy coincidence that without touching my MAF, TB or anything on the intake or computer that this issue would be affected. I still have to clean the sensors upstream, but i was trying to take a week or so in between my normal maintenance to see if anything had any positive results. It will be cold all this week so i will monitor my morning starts and sit and watch for 5 minutes to see how it goes.during my cold starts i do not have the heat or any air blowing, i just sit and watch until the needle starts moving.**edit: another cold start around 25F and it had perfect manners again with no hunting. The battery was NOT unplugged during any of this and no fuses were reset.