Project "Big Boots", Phase I

[MadBill]

OK, thanks to NSimkins, I think I've grasped the pix attachment process! Attached should be found a couple of shots re the installation of a humongous set of 275/40 x 17" Firestone Firehawk tires on 10" wide Dymag wheels. (The Incandescent Orange will be changed to silver or white when I paint the car yellow.) No rubbing so far; the test will be when I get the fronts on and install the 2.1"/2.3" drop Tein S springs...Whaddya think?

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[MadBill]

OK, that sorta worked, but I'd tried to post several pix; maybe that's a no-no!Anyway, here's another (Starting to see why people need a website of their own...

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[MadBill]

And another...

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[MadBill]

Here's the last! BTW, the trick with the adaptor (to the Corvette 4-3/4" bolt circle) in the previous pic was to squeeze a set of low profile wheel nuts below the surface of an adaptor only 1/2" thick; any more would have messed up the offset and clearance too much..

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[Vibe Rater]

Will these wheels remain orange?Did anyone else notice that the 'Rotation' indicator on the tire shows that the tire is installed imporperly? Correct and scold me if I am wrong.

[MadBill]

Good eyes, Vibe Rater! I didn't bother with the correct rotation for the test fit (we got 10" of snow starting 4 hours later), but the tires are mounted to allow correct rotation. The first post mentions the plans for a color change. [Orange wheels on a (soon to be) yellow Vibe would look just too Tonka Toy for me...]

[canadavibegt]

Looks like it will be pretty bad looking........ but I noticed you have a base vibe with drum brakes....... Seems like a lot of tire with such poor brakes.. Any plans to upgrade to disks.p.s. doupt you will be driving in the snow with those.

[MadBill]

They do look kinda scrawny in there, don't they? (See my recent post re fake giant rotors.)Alas, the ABS & 4 wheel disc $$ have been diverted into my paint & supercharger fund!"Any idiot can make a car go slow. It takes a genius to make one go fast." (Enzo Ferrari, circa 1963, explaining the drum brakes on his race cars.)

[canadavibegt]

Love the quote..... try this one some time "brakes are for pussies" unknow author but I had it on a decal.......Anyway where I live people drive way to unpredicatble.... need good brakes......... Keep us updated on the project looks like it will turn out nice....... p.s. just looked at nice set of upgrade disks on the AEM web site........ realy big and powerfull.....hoping to get new tires but only around the 225 to 235 width... hopefully on 18"s

[NovaResource]

quote:but I noticed you have a base vibe with drum brakes....... Seems like a lot of tire with such poor brakes.. Any plans to upgrade to disks.Poor Brakes?!?!?! Not hardly.See my thoughts in the base rear drum brakes here:http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id ... 0867#30867

[savedbyzero]

The front will be the trick to this whole monstrousity working. good luck! Like to see a different set of wheels. maybe from the Z 06?!

[Frosty]

What the %$#@ are you doing below? http://forums.genvibe.com/zerofile/404/DSCN1740.jpg Do you have any 16" wheels you want to part with?

[Frosty]

Hope it isn't a lease. I have a few leads on Ebay but I think next week I will be putting out some feelers in the "buy/sell" forum for summer wheels.

[rasermon]

quote:What the %$#@ are you doing below? http://forums.genvibe.com/zerofile/404/DSCN1740.jpg LOL, Frosty I was thinking the same.

[redtrdmatrix]

Not trying to flame here but those tires are huge. What do you expect to gain from this upgrade cuz the only thing I can think of is more air drag = slower speeds(or more traction but only if you do alot of autocrossing) and not to mention that the wide tires in the rear and slim tires in the front only look cool if you have a RWD car. But if it makes you happy go for it just remember to paint those wheels a decent color

[MadBill]

Hey! I glance away for a day or so and this thread FILLS with posts! (Guess I got everyone's attention!)Anyway a few answers: Re Salsa's questions about rears only: No, the fronts are in the works, and you're right, things will be tight on turns! My tests with cardboard tire profiles suggests I'll get some scuffing on the fender wells at the 3:00 o'clock position. I'm hoping they are thermoplastic and can be heated and stretched a bit. I may have to drop down to 245s on the front only, which I can do as my Vibe doesn't have ABS to complicate matters. I would have used 245s all around if I was buying them new, but I've had these wheels and tires for years so thought I'd give them a try. (Which answers savedbyzero's question re Z 06 wheels also.)Re Frosty's query about the maniac with a power tool attacking the wheel studs, the sawsall work was necessary to keep them from fouling the new wheels' mounting surfaces, as the adaptors are only 1/2" thick, to maintain correct offset. To ensure adequate thread engagement with theWinter Steelies, I had the machine shop countersink the tapered nut seat areas as deeply as possible (Yes, I remembered to do the spare too!) and now I have ~8 threads engaged, about the same as a standard hex nut.Lastly, I deliberately "burned my bridges" by selling the stock wheels before I even took delivery of the car, so there would be no turning back come spring!I may get the fronts on this weekend, weather willing. Will keep the post posted.

[Hawke]

quote:No trying to flame here but those tires are huge. What do you expect to gain from this upgrade cuz the only thing I can think of is more air drag = slower speeds(or more traction but only if you do alot of autocrossing) and not to mention that the wide tires in the rear and slim tires in the front only look cool if you have a RWD car. But if it makes you happy go for it just remember to paint those wheels a decent color I just figured this is why the Mad was in MadBill

[MadBill]

Oops! Several more posts while I was "hunt 'n pecking" my way through the last response:I was mostly just after an outrageous look with such monster rubber;any handling benefit will be a bonus. I figure I'll need the supercharger just to overcome the incresed drag! Coincidentally, my wife also had unprintable things to say about the orange color! (Not to mention what she though of me cutting up a perfectly innocent 3 month old car...) I'll likely go with silver or white when everything's sorted out. PS: Hawke has fine insight! (nothing as dangerous as an old guy with adolescent notions and enough money to indulge in some of them...)

[canadavibegt]

quote:but I noticed you have a base vibe with drum brakes....... Seems like a lot of tire with such poor brakes.. Any plans to upgrade to disks.Poor Brakes?!?!?! Not hardly.See my thoughts in the base rear drum brakes here:http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id ... #30867This may be true but if your going to stick monster tires on a car one would expect you to utilize them......... this would suggest turning the car on a course preferabley with tight corners which would mean braking would be involved. Lots of braking in which case discs would be the way to go........ And even if this is not the plan a nice set of disc still look way better behind a huge set of rims than drums... (gee maybe you could paint them to match the car).......I notice that your comparison the Gt out stopped the base Vibe by 3 feet in different test (this small diference could be the result of different road surfaces which can greatly increase or decrease the stopping distance of vehicles, not to mention road surface temp, tire temp etc.) so unless the tests were performed on the same day on the same road with identicle tires it suggest nothing. when was the last time you saw any high performance car with drum brakes or a disc to drum conversion kit. It plain terms disc brakes are superior to drums in virtually all applications. But this is just my opinion.

[Stang2Vibe]

Hey MadBill,I have a set of 4 Z-rated tires that I want to use on my Vibe GT. I have 16" wheels now and would upgrade to 17" if these tires will fit on the Vibe. The tires are 245/45/17 and I really loved them on my Mustang. They should fit on the rear of the Vibe with no problem, but I don't think they will clear the front. I can't test fit them because the wheels they are currently mounted on have different bolt spacing and the offset is wrong for the Vibe. Do you think that the 245/45/17's will work on all 4 wheels of the Vibe without having to get spacers, cut lug bolts, etc.? I also would like to drop my Vibe's suspension 2" in the future, but still want the new tire/wheel combination to fit. Would it fit with a 2" drop? I understand that you may not know the exact answers, but I would at least like to hear what you think. Thanks!

[satur9]

actually i think you would need to know the offset of the new wheel to get a more accurate answer.225/40 is what trd,tirerack,and most everbody else recomends(and this is at stock height) to keep steering geometry and speedometer calibrations in tact after paying 1500 for wheel and tires i wouldnt wont to have to buy adaptors make adjustments and cut stuff. when people have already figured it out for you.unless you dont really care and want to "pull a mad bill" in which case the skys and your wallets the limit.

[MadBill]

Hi Stang2Vibe.Saturn9* has some good points. *(hmmm... "Saturnine" means: "sarcastic" as well as "sluggish" and "relating to the absorbtion of lead into the system"; wonder which applies here? ) You should first consider what "look" you really want. If you yearn for 18"s, or 19"s, it's false economy to settle for 17"s just so you can use your existing tires. Plus, it's always safer and easier to follow the marked trail! However, the real challenge is breaking trail for yourself, so: According to the data at The Tire Rack site, the 245/45 x 17"s would be about an inch taller than the stock 205/55 x 16"s, but only a couple of tenths more than the optional 215/50 x 17"s. Based on the way my 275/40 x 17"s fit, I agree, you would likely have no problem at the rear. The tightest squeeze at the front would probably be the outer corner of the tread coming very close to or contacting the fender liner at ~ the 3:00 o'clock position during tight turns. My measurements show that my 275/40 x 17"s will hit, but it's tread is over an inch wider than yours, so you might just get by. A 245/40 x17" looks to be OK, but it is an inch shorter than your tires. I'd suggest one of two approaches: 1. See if you can borrow a stock 17" rim, mount one of your 245s on it, and test drive it, front and rear. 2. What I did: Make up a wooden 2"x4" bar (carved to clear the brake caliper) and bolt it to the hub. Then make a cardboard pattern of the tire profile, using your desired rim width and the sidewall and tread width for your tire, per dealer/site data (or better yet, a tracing from your Mustang wheel & tire). By clamping the "Tire" to the wheel stick at an 8-1/2" distance from the center and adjusting it in or out to match the offset of candidate wheels (or to find the needed offset), you should get a good idea of how tight things will be. Typically, you would want as small a clearance as possible, keeping deflection, etc., in mind, to the strut and other "in-side" obstructions, to minimize the "sweep" of the tread edge towards the fender liner.(If I can get my buddy with his digital camera over some time soon, I'll get some shots of the set up; would definetly be worth a thousand words!)Hope this helps...

[satur9]

satur9 is also a smashing pumkins song,also the designation of tethys the ninth satellite of saturn,(and my vibe is sattelite).its profound on so many levels.and ME sarcastic??? heavens no, im just cynical and contrary.

[satur9]

and sorry that 225/40 was for 18's we should have a link for tire size calculator in the diy forum.but like i said earlier these calculations are at stock height or in the case of trd 18 inch wheel package 1.5 drop.a 2 inch or greater drop in pushing the envelope on proper clearance.

[Stang2Vibe]

Oh, now I'm all confused. I did some research with a tire size calculator that Sub-Vibe-R was kind enough to link in a much earlier post. It can be found at www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html. Now according to this tire calculator, I found some interesting results. MadBill, please tell me if this all makes any sense to you.I currently have 205/55/16 tires on my Vibe GT (stock, factory tires).If I go to my 245/45/17's that I have, I have the following differences:--3.2% change in speedometer reading--Overall diameter will be 0.8" taller--the sidewall will be 0.1" shorterNow, comparing my stock tires to the suggested size of 225/40/17:--also 3.2% change in speedometer reading--overall diameter will be 0.8" shorter--the sidewall will be 0.9" shorterSo this all tells me that either way will not cause much problem with speedometer error and ABS sensors. However, my goal of a lower sidewall is not accomplished using the tires I want to and in fact, they will be almost 1" taller overall. The sidewall will be slightly lower profile compared to stock, so at least the profile is not greater. If I break the bank and get the tires in the suggested size of 225/40/17, the speedometer error is the same as if I went to the size I want, but the overall diameter and profile will be smaller than the stock setup. A greater overall tire diameter will result in fewer revolutions per mile and mean greater tread life. Shorter will be the opposite. The tires I have are noticably wider than the suggested ones, which should give better grip, but worse fuel economy. Being that I am not very concerned with fuel economy and tremendously concerned with gaining grip, it looks like using the tires I want to use will not only work (assuming everything clears the fenderwells), but should give me better roadhandling. The other plus is that the tires will cost me nothing because I already have them and my friend is the manager of a Pep Boys and I could have them swiched over for free. So then if I can use the tires I have, the only cost will be for the wheels themselves. I researched the tires that I want to use, and they can be mounted on wheels that are 7.5"-9.5" rim width. The rims they are on now are 9.5" wide. Most wheels that fit the Vibe are 7.5" or 8" wide. So now I would have to decide what rim width would be better. I would guess that the 8" wide wheels would be a bit better because 7.5" is the minimum width that can be used. But maybe the 7.5" ones would clear the fender wells better? I just don't know and this is getting really frustrating. Also, I don't want to "pull a madbill", as satur9 put it, and have to go cutting up lugs, machining adapter plates, etc. I want to stick pretty much with the stock offset to avoid problems. However, I want to put on the Ground Control suspension lowering kit and lower the car about 2". That should not affect the offset, should it??

[MadBill]

Looks like you've done lots of good research, Stang2! -Always a key to success.1. I couldn't find any 225/40 x 17", but I'm sure they are out there somewhere. 2. The 245/45 x 17" are only 0.2" taller than the factory 215/50 x 17", so should not be a issue from that aspect. 3. Diameter differences are all too slight to affect tire wear; driving habits and tire characteristics are ~95% responsible, assuming correct inflation. 4. The shape of the Vibe's "innner side" components is such that it is the sidewall, not the rim which will hit if the width or offset is too high.5. The section widths listed are with the "design width rims". Typically, section width changes 40% as much as rim width, so for example, if the design rim width is 9.5" and you mount the tire on an 8" rim, the overall section width will go down by 1.5" x0.4 = 0.6", giving 0.3" more clearance per side. 6. You could do a tracing of an inflated tire on you Mustang wheel as per previous post and with the info. in #5, modify it to an 8" rim and check for clearances per my "measuring stick" approach in that post.7. In general, for max. handling you want the widest rims possible for a given tire, but first the combo has to fit the car (see #5.) 8. As long as you get a set of rims properly specced for the Vibe, no "MadBill" activities should be necessary. 9. The combination of bigger tires and lowering are always going to end up in uncharted waters. You might be able to poll the site on who has the biggest rubber on a lowered Vibe and whether they have any rubbing issues, but at some point you'll likely just have to take the plunge and find out first hand, if no one else has tried your combo. Bottom line: I would assemble the specs for the style and cost of wheels I liked in 17" x 8.0" or 8.5" width, decide among them based on appearance and offset and go for it!Good luck!

[NovaResource]

quote:I currently have 205/55/16 tires on my Vibe GT (stock, factory tires).If I go to my 245/45/17's that I have, I have the following differences: +3.2% change in speedometer readingNow, comparing my stock tires to the suggested size of 225/40/17: -3.2% change in speedometer readingSo this all tells me that either way will not cause much problem with speedometer error and ABS sensors.I disagree. I feel anything more than a 1% difference in the speedo is too much. It won't hurt anything but you loose the accuracy of the speedometer and odometer.If you want a 245 wide tire then I feel a 245/40-17 tire is perfect: the sidewall is 0.5" less and the speedo error is only +0.6%.If you want a 225 wide tire then I feel a 245/45-17 tire is perfect: the sidewall is 0.4" less and the speedo error is only -0.4%.

[NovaResource]

Not sure because todays cars are calibrated with the computer. I believe you have to reprogram the computer to do that.

[Stang2Vibe]

I am not very worried about the speedometer error factor, I just want to make sure it doesn't screw with the ABS sensor. I too think that the computer would have to be reprogrammed to make it accurate. However, the speedometers on the vast majority of cars do not read true from the factory anyway. I read that Honda's factory tolerance for speedometer error is +/- 8%. That's a lot more than the change I would be making with my tire and wheel swap. Again, I have the 205/55/16 size tires. If I change to the 245/45/17 tires that I want to use, when my speedometer reads 60mph my true speed would be 61.9mph. ~2mph difference at 60 mph will not justify in my mind spending another couple of hundred dollars to recalibrate the computer to read accurately. When reading 30mph, I would actually be going 30.96mph, or less than 1mph difference. I can live with that. Also, the odometer error would be in my favor so there are no complaints there, either.The main issue here is that I want to use the 245/45/17's because I already own them and they were used for less than 4 months and less than 8,000 miles, so they have A LOT of life left on them. I would hate to have to go out and spend another $700 on tires when I already have them. With that $700 I'd be saving, I can get the Injen CAI, MOMO pedals and door sills, window tint, and the Flowmaster muffler with installation included that I plan to get. If I have to spring for new rubber, I won't get to do some of the other mods I want like the Ground Control lowering kit, Hotchkis STB and sway bars. That is why I really want to make these tires fit. If they fit, I can use them, get a bunch of other cool stuff with that $700 and sell the AR rims from the Mustang to cover most of the cost of the new chrome rims for the Vibe. After all the transactions with the wheels and tires, it should only cost me about $300 out of pocket for a $1700 wheel and tire set up. Not bad at all, I think.

[MadBill]

Your logic is persuasive, Stang2; I'd say go for it! (but that's what you'd expect from MadBill, right?) If it ever stops snowing here (we got a 4" April Fool's dump and they're calling for up to 6" tonight) I'll get busy in the driveway and be able to report on the fit of 275/40 x 17" on the front, both stock and with Tein S Sport 2.3"/2.1" drop springs.Meantime, I think I'll launch a poll on the subject just to see what the member's can tell us.

[Stang2Vibe]

That would be great info. If your humungous tires fit with the Tien drop kit, then my almost humungous tires with a 2" Ground Control drop kit should definately fit. I usually LOVE the snow , but now I'm really itching to get to work on the Vibe. We had some snow squalls here in Pittsburgh on Monday, but only accumulated a dusting on the grassy areas. Went up to about 72F today, so all the snow is now long gone here.