GT vs Base

latina_qt · Post by **latina_qt** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:13 am

I found the quote below in another post and it raised some questions. Is it true that a Base Vibe's Engine can be so overworked that it would die out much faster than the GT? I have a Base Vibe so of course this has me worried. quote:So simply having a GM product gets me that discount? Do i have to prove something other than pointing at my car?I'm not sure what color yet. They have an Envy at the dealer that I like, but I don't want the attention of an offbeat color car. I'll probably do moon & tunes and monotone...i'm still debating whether to go GT or not. I am afraid the engine in the standard would be overworked, and the last overworked engine I drove (a 4 Cylinder 2.2 in an 89 Buick Century Sedan: 0-60 in 20 secs) died at 120,000.I'm just graduating college and have a decent job almost lined up so i am excited about getting a new car! I'm not from a family or have an upbringing where things like new cars are very common, so the idea of getting one makes my heart race (i'm a nerd!)

Sub-Vibe-R · Post by **Sub-Vibe-R** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:36 am

As VibeBabe I'm not an expert, but if GM and Toyota are working on a supercharger, this should mean the base engine can take much more then what it produce when stock.

Zamboni Guy · Post by **Zamboni Guy** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:38 am

quote:As VibeBabe I'm not an expert, but if GM and Toyota are working on a supercharger, this should mean the base engine can take much more then what he produce when stock.I am not an expert either, but I would agree with you on this.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:46 am

quote:I found the quote below in another post and it raised some questions. Is it true that a Base Vibe's Engine can be so overworked that it would die out much faster than the GT? I have a Base Vibe so of course this has me worried. I am afraid the engine in the standard would be overworked, and the last overworked engine I drove (a 4 Cylinder 2.2 in an 89 Buick Century Sedan: 0-60 in 20 secs) died at 120,000.umm !!!! you are talking about a damn Buick engine, against a Toyota engine. with regular care, I have never seen one Toyota engine (other than high strung engine, like a Supra) not lasting more than 250,000 miles.Sub is correct that it would be GT's engine being overworked (if indeed it is) rather than the base.

progvmac · Post by **progvmac** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:01 am

I was the one who posted about my Buick engine. As said, it was a crappy old buick engine. In 1989, a 4 cylinder american engine could not reasonably push a large sedan. I actually drove the vibe base today, and it was far more peppy than that buick ever was, it didn't seem like the engine was overworked at all.Add that in with Toyota quality, and i'm sure it is fine. My fiance drives a 4-cylinder Camry from 1989 and it is still running fine at over 150,000. I'd guess a 2003 toyota engine is even better.

savedbyzero · Post by **savedbyzero** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:41 am

the engines may seem the same, but they're actually two different beasts. the compression is much lower in the base which is why it can be supercharged more efficiently. there are several differences, so the supercharger theory of the base being more strong is real valid.

cohocarl · Post by **cohocarl** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 4:23 am

quote:Is it true that a Base Vibe's Engine can be so overworked that it would die out much faster than the GT?Personally, I don't think we have anything to worry about with either engine, but to look at it another way:Both engines are the same displacement. You will run the GT engine at higher rpms which could result in more wear, and the higher output of the GT from the same displacement could mean it's actually working "harder".

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 5:16 am

actually I would looked at it this way. people who buy the GT, will more like to drive it harder, thus more "overworked".

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:00 am

VVT-i = Variable Valve Timing, IntelligentVVTL-i = Variable Valve Timing and Lift, IntelligentVariable Valve Timing is the computer advancing or retarding the valve opening timing (above 4000-rpm in the base and GT engines).The Lift is the computer changing the valve lift (higher above 6000-rpm) which is what increases the GT engine power over the base.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:59 am

Actually, no. The base 1ZZ has a longer stroke and smaller bore (more torque). The GT 2ZZ has a shorter stroke and a larger bore to help it rev higher. However, both engines have the same 1.8L displacement. Also, the GT 2ZZ has a totally different cylinder head and intake. The different cylinder head is what is required for the Lift portion.

Project Shadow · Post by **Project Shadow** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:23 pm

I would think an engine block that revs up to 8200 RPM would likely wear faster then the very similar engine that tops at 6200RPM (or whatever redlines they have) I agree that being a Toyota engine (and giving regular care) would result in super long engine life. I drive my other cars very hard but maintain them well and I have never wrecked an engine. Example: GM 3.1L w/5 speed 300,000kms runs like a top.Both the GT and Base should be near bullet proof.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:58 pm

You guys crack me up. I am smart enough NOT to say which motor is absolutely more reliable, but thinking that the 2ZZ motor which revs higher would make it less reliable is a joke. A motor's revability is based on numerous factors some of the more important is the ratio between bore and stroke. The more square a motor is, meaning the closer the bore and stroke ratio is 1:1 the less reciprocating stresses that are placed on the motor.If you guys are wanting to talk reliability, try taking a 1ZZ to 8300rpm. It will blow up. Now, the electronics will prevent the 1ZZ from reving that high. I have to think my 2ZZ is feeling pretty good when I'm rolling down the highway at 80mph turning 3600rpm when the redline is 8200 rpm. That is 4600rpm from redline. How far away from redline is the 1ZZ at 80mph? Isn't it turning around 3000rpm? So, the redline is around 6500rpm, so that's only 3500rpm difference? Which motor is working harder again? Just because the absolute rpm on the 2ZZ is higher, I can GUARANTEE that Toyota/Yamaha designed the motor for high rpm.Another example is the Honda S2000 motor. It's redline is 9000rpm. Well, I've heard and read from NUMEROUS sources that that motor is actually stressed LESS at 9000rpm than a Honda Prelude VTEC motor at it's redline which is 7500rpm. Same goes for the 1ZZ.Both motors are VERY reliable, I like that 'lift' kick at 6000rpm where the car actually has some pull from 6000rpm to the fuel cutoff at 8350rpm. I've been there a few hundred times already with about 4500miles on the odometer.Finally, internal engine differences between the 1ZZ and 2ZZ are numerous including the cylinder head, internals, cam actuation hardware and software which 'pops' the motor to the high lift/high duration camshaft at the 6000ish crossover point. The 2ZZ makes 50 (FIFTY) horsepower more than the 1ZZ. That is BIG number between motors with the same displacement.Look, I like the 1ZZ motor, it's a damn good motor, it powers the Corolla and the Celica GT. It makes good power and will last forever. The 2ZZ is the same motor with some higher rpm, more efficient hardware, it's designed to rev all day long, and will be just as reliable as the 1ZZ (presuming you take care of it like you would the 1ZZ), it just happens to make 50 horsepower more.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:43 pm

I'm not saying the 2ZZ is not reliable, but it is more stressed. The 11.5:1 compression alone (vs the 10.0:1 compression of the 1ZZ) puts more stress on the crank, rods and pistons even at idle.Also, a base Vibe at 80-mph is turning about 3100-rpm vs the 3600-rpm for the GT. Peak torque for the 1ZZ is at 4400-rpm while peak torque for the 2ZZ is at 6800-rpm. So the base is only 1300-rpm below peak torque while the GT is lugging down 3200-rpm below peak torque at the same speed putting more stress on the engine.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:03 am

Damn!! I do have to agree with Nova this time.Corolla's reliability is legendary, even more so than other Toyota's. But gain, may be it is because Corolla's (1zz) drivers are old ladies, compare to Celicas drivers that drag race every stoplight.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:39 am

quote:Corolla's reliability is legendary, even more so than other Toyota's. But gain, may be it is because Corolla's (1zz) drivers are old ladies, compare to Celicas drivers that drag race every stoplight.I never thought about it that way but it makes sence. However, the Celica GT has the 1ZZ motor, too. It's only the GT-S that has the 2ZZ.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:20 am

quote:I'm not saying the 2ZZ is not reliable, but it is more stressed. The 11.5:1 compression alone (vs the 10.0:1 compression of the 1ZZ) puts more stress on the crank, rods and pistons even at idle.Also, a base Vibe at 80-mph is turning about 3100-rpm vs the 3600-rpm for the GT. Peak torque for the 1ZZ is at 4400-rpm while peak torque for the 2ZZ is at 6800-rpm. So the base is only 1300-rpm below peak torque while the GT is lugging down 3200-rpm below peak torque at the same speed putting more stress on the engine.Nova,You are correct save for a one thing. Just because a motor is a certain rpm level below peak torque doesn't mean it's not making the same amount of torque. We need to overlay dyno graphs, I bet money that the amount of torque at 3600rpm for the 2ZZ is VERY similar to the amount of torque of the 1ZZ at 3100rpm. Most modern engine torque curves are relatively flat, not super flat depending on the motor, but pretty flat. Secondly, while the compression ratio being higher in the 2ZZ may make the motor more 'stressed', who is to say the 2ZZ motor wasn't overbuilt for this 'stress?' I'm sure you've read the SAE article on the design of the 2ZZ, right? I will put $100 down for ANYONE who can prove with evidence that the 2ZZ motor is less reliable than the 1ZZ. Driving habits may play a factor in how long each motor lasts, but not nearly as big of a factor as regular maintenance and common sense. One thing that is already proven without a doubt is that the 2ZZ makes 50 more rated horsepower than the 1ZZ.Again, both motors are great, but the 1ZZ is definitely the more economy motor, hence the FE cylinder head and the 2ZZ is much more performance based, hence the GE cylinder head.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:06 am

quote:I will put $100 down for ANYONE who can prove with evidence that the 2ZZ motor is less reliable than the 1ZZ.I NEVER said the 2ZZ was less reliable, I said it was more stressed (and it is).This is why Pontiac won't S/C the 2ZZ. The 1ZZ can take the added pressure because it's starting from a lower compression and stress level. Add that same S/C to the 2ZZ with the same boost and you will probably break the motor.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:16 am

quote:I will put $100 down for ANYONE who can prove with evidence that the 2ZZ motor is less reliable than the 1ZZ.I NEVER said the 2ZZ was less reliable, I said it was more stressed (and it is).This is why Pontiac won't S/C the 2ZZ. The 1ZZ can take the added pressure because it's starting from a lower compression and stress level. Add that same S/C to the 2ZZ with the same boost and you will probably break the motor.No forced induction motor will last at 11.5:1 compression ratio. The 2ZZ was designed for high rpm, high horsepower relative to its displacement naturally aspirated. While a supercharged 1ZZ will put out more torque, it will make similar horsepower levels. So, at that point, since we would then be on equal footing horsepower wise, which motor would be more stressed; a supercharged 1ZZ or a naturally aspirated 2ZZ? For long-term reliablity, I would DEFINITELY take a NA 2ZZ.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:47 pm

I'd bet that the Toyota reputation for reliability was a factor in most people's decision to by their Vibe. With maintenance and some resonable amount of care, if one motor is going to last a couple hundred thousand miles and the other will last that and then some more, I'll be happy with either.

coratz · Post by **coratz** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:28 pm

quikag-------check this thread out http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=1993the base vibe dont do this.

jackospades · Post by **jackospades** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:11 pm

This is the price you pay for having a car that a has performance traits. I have seen RX-7's, Corvettes, and the list goes on that have engine trouble from pushing their cars to the max capability. That is why I opted for the extended warranty on mine because I dont drive like a grandparent. I expect good quality from normal wear and tear. Even though the engine is designed for the higher rpm's range doesn't mean things can't go wrong. Everybody here has valid points but like a few of you imply " take care of it and it wont break"

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:43 am

quote:No forced induction motor will last at 11.5:1 compression ratio. And why do you think that is? Because an 11.5:1 compression motor is more stressed than a 10.0:1 motor. You've just proven my point.quote:While a supercharged 1ZZ will put out more torque, it will make similar horsepower levels. So, at that point, since we would then be on equal footing horsepower wise, which motor would be more stressed; a supercharged 1ZZ or a naturally aspirated 2ZZ?They would be about the same at that point with the S/C 1ZZ being now slightly more stressed than a 2ZZ.quote:For long-term reliablity, I would DEFINITELY take a NA 2ZZ.Over a S/C 1ZZ, yes. Over a NA 1ZZ, no.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 11:25 am

coratz, that thread means absolutely nothing. I'm afraid no one in that thread has the slightest idea what they're talking about.Nova,Yes, I do agree that the 2ZZ is more stressed, BUT IT IS DESIGNED FOR IT. How is that hard to understand? It's like a guy that has never worked out going into the gym and trying to bench press 225lbs. They're going to hurt themselves. But if a guy has worked out and trained himself and he body has been 'designed' per se, then pushing 225lbs is cake. The 2ZZ had it's bore and stroke shortened to reduce interal reciprocating stresses at higher rpm, the motor was designed and tuned to run on super unleaded and the compression ratio was bumped up to 11.5:1. Is that a high compression ratio? Yes, but the motor was designed around it.I disagree with you that given similar driving styles that a 1ZZ will last longer. You rag out a 1ZZ, it'll break just as easily as a 2ZZ that is ragged out. But the 2ZZ is making 50 more horsepower while it's being ragged out, so at least the 2ZZ driver is having more fun. On the other hand, if you take care of the 2ZZ, don't take the motor into lift on every shift, then that motor is going to last a very long time. The car feels so natural at 3600rpm at 80mph with a nice fat 8200rpm sitting there.On another note, the Acura NSX has a 8000rpm redline and it's hands down the most reliable sports car on the market. A maintained NSX that isn't thrashed will last EASILY as long as a 1ZZ or 2ZZ motored car.

Kissfan79 · Post by **Kissfan79** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 5:13 pm

Wow....this is getting interesting....makes for great reading at 4:13 AM Jim

Kissfan79 · Post by **Kissfan79** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 5:13 pm

HIGHREV · Post by **HIGHREV** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:35 pm

I agree with QUIKAG, you should check out the SAE articles. If you really want to know how different the engines are study these papers. You can find them on MatrixVibe.Net under TechStuff.No one has mentioned that the 2ZZ has different liners?Also-- By no means does a GT "lug" at 80 mph. It cruises effortlessly.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 12:05 am

quote:Yes, I do agree that the 2ZZ is more stressed, BUT IT IS DESIGNED FOR IT. How is that hard to understand?OK, then explain this: http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=1993

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 6:03 am

I'm probably a little biased here, but I think that thread refers to a normal maintainence item. If there is an easily accessible screw that bears most of the load of the valvetrain evertime the engine gets into lift and it's reasonably cheap, then inpecting and replacing is not a sign of an "overstressed engine". As far as the 2zz being more stressed than a 1zz : If the engine is designed to rev till 8000 rpm and you drive it between 2000 and 6000 its whole life I'd be willing to bet that it would last longer than an engine designed to rev to 6500 rpm that you were revving between 2000 and 6000. I'm sure toyota or Gm doesn't say "OK this engine will only last 100,000 miles because it's a "high output". Personally, I like knowing that they tested the engine to 8000 rpm and felt that they could still call it a toyota. If the original claim was that the interior components are more stressed because there is more horsepower involved, I don't know if that's true since the 2zz is a short stroke motor (this typically limits mazimum piston speeds and internal stresses) when compared to the 1zz. Max torques are similar. As far as the compression ratio goes - the only thing that predicts is when detonation will start if something is not just right. If there's too much air, if you use regular unleaded, if you use high vapor pressure fuel in summer... Actual cylinder pressures are only a little higher, and since the 2zz pistons are a larger area. Until you force induction, 11.5:1 by itself doesn't really overstress an engine. I will agree that the 1zz is easier to mod. It will be interesting to see if the supercharger has any effect on the 1zz's durability. Until the numbers come out, I haven't seen any compelling evidence that Celica GTS's are more prone to engine failure than GT's.

HIGHREV · Post by **HIGHREV** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 9:26 am

I understand how those bolts hold the rocker shafts from rotating, but why does the variable lift stop working? Does something bind or do you lose oil pressure. From what I read the lift is actuated by oil pressure.I am also wondering what car these parts came out of. I have seen manufacturers make running changes to parts, but not release any recalls. They will repair them on a fix as fail basis. Sometimes the liability exposure is low in comparison to the overall recall cost. ( they would rather ride out the warranty than absorb the cost of fixing them all)I imagine that changing the hardnessor shape of the bolt would reduce the wear.quote:Yes, I do agree that the 2ZZ is more stressed, BUT IT IS DESIGNED FOR IT. How is that hard to understand?OK, then explain this: http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=1993[

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:48 am

quote:Corolla's reliability is legendary, even more so than other Toyota's. But again, may be it is because Corolla's (1zz) drivers are old ladies, compare to Celicas drivers that drag race every stoplight.I would hardly consider the new Corolla an old lady's car. My sister is 21 and just bought a Corolla S a few months before I got my Vibe. My girlfriend's friend has been driving an older Corolla for a few years now. I see many Corollas around the campuses of our local colleges and knew several people who drove them in high school. They were certainly not a "cool" car to drive until the '03 Corolla S came out because the older body styles were so ugly and plain. I think that the older people are more likely to buy a Camry or an Avalon because they are bigger and offer more standard features. The Corolla was just a cheap means of reliable, fuel efficent transportation until it was recently redesigned. It was given decent power and great looks, while maintaining the former positive attributes. Now there is a developing aftermarket for the Corolla where it had been notibly left out in previous years. That is good news because some of that aftermarket will trickle down to the Vibe/Matrix in addition to the aftermarket attention they are already getting.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 10:25 am

quote:Corolla's reliability is legendary, even more so than other Toyota's. But again, may be it is because Corolla's (1zz) drivers are old ladies, compare to Celicas drivers that drag race every stoplight.I would hardly consider the new Corolla an old lady's car. My sister is 21 and just bought a Corolla S a few months before I got my Vibe. My girlfriend's friend has been driving an older Corolla for a few years now. I see many Corollas around the campuses of our local colleges and knew several people who drove them in high school. They were certainly not a "cool" car to drive until the '03 Corolla S came out because the older body styles were so ugly and plain. I think that the older people are more likely to buy a Camry or an Avalon because they are bigger and offer more standard features. The Corolla was just a cheap means of reliable, fuel efficent transportation until it was recently redesigned. It was given decent power and great looks, while maintaining the former positive attributes. Now there is a developing aftermarket for the Corolla where it had been notibly left out in previous years. That is good news because some of that aftermarket will trickle down to the Vibe/Matrix in addition to the aftermarket attention they are already getting.comparing to Celica, I am pretty sure the average age for Corolla is older than Celica. Plus IMO, Corolla have more female drivers (percentage wise) than Celica. and Celica have more aggressive drivers than Corolla in general. one thing is for sure, the insurance rates is higher for Celica.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:22 am

Yes, the avg age of Corolla drivers is probably higher, you are right. But I hardly see it as an old lady's car, particularly the new bodystyle. It is now gaining strong in the younger market, I'm told. I also think you are right on the money with the gender observation. And yes, the Celica drivers will tend to be more aggressive drivers because the Celica is Toyota's offical sports car. Also the reason for the higher insurance rates. I love that fact. Its like I get to cheat the insurance company by buying the Vibe GT. The Vibe's insurance is much cheaper, yet it has the same drivetrain as the top level Celica model with the same power output. Awesome! And I can mod the Vibe to give it even more power? Excuse me please, can I take 2 Vibes?I think that the Corolla has the potential to be lower in avg driver age than the Celicas, particularly the Corolla S models. Not too many high school or college kids around here that can afford to plunk down $30-$35K for a new Celica AND pay the ridiculous insurance. They probably CAN afford a new Corolla S at around $17,000, though. With some mods, that Corolla can be a pretty sporty little machine. If the supercharger comes out for the 1zz engine and can work on the Corolla, that would be a great ride. $10K less than a Celica, half the insurance cost, about the same power output, makes for a LOT of fun at an affordable price. I think that many tuners would go for that. They could toast a lot of crappy little ugly ricer Civics out there at even less cost than the Civic! That would be a great deal!

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:30 pm

in most of the reviews lately, Corolla is actually beating Civics. so Toyota must be doing something right.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 4:21 pm

Yes, having driven both the 2002 Civic EX and 2003 Corolla S, I must say that my impression of drivablity as well as interior and exterior quality are not even a close comparison. The Corolla seems like a car that should cost $5,000 more than the Civic, not $2,000 less. The Corolla feels that it has much more interior space as well. Not to mention that the Corolla has more HP, yet gets better gas mileage. The body on my girlfriend's 2000 Civic DX crumples if you sneeze on it, and as a result is all dented up. My sister's '03 Corolla has taken a few parking lot door beatings that have resulted in minor scratches, but no dents. The Corolla felt smoother and more natural to me. But those are just my opinions. The styling is fresh and sporty, where the Civic's is rather dated now. No wonder why the Civic is being outsold. Another major factor is probably the pricing strategy. Honda still stubbornly refuses to offer discounts or factory rebates because they feel that it hurts the resale value of their cars. Funny, Toyota offers discounts and rebates, yet their resale is still a little bit higher than Honda's. Also, Honda's interest rates that were offered were a joke compared to Toyota's. Honda couldn't come close to the rates offered by other manufacturers. Hopefully it is now obvious to the Honda marketing strategists that it may be time to rethink some of their strategies.

Twistylocs · Post by **Twistylocs** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:49 pm

quote:I'd bet that the Toyota reputation for reliability was a factor in most people's decision to by their Vibe. Yup - that applies to us. My husband is staunchly against buying American cars because of their reliability issues. When I showed him the Vibe and told him it had Toyota underpinnings, it quickly shot to the top of his list.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 12:11 am

My hubby feels the same way Twisty-that's why he recommended the Vibe to me (I had really not considered one until that time) We always bought North American-but the reliability thing does come into play.

philndz · Post by **philndz** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:09 am

quote: One thing that is already proven without a doubt is that the 2ZZ makes 50 more rated horsepower than the 1ZZ.Gosh!.....QUIK, you sound very very certain of this!!! I believe we have already decided and for the most part, PROVEN, that the 1zz is definately under-rated by 10HP . i hate to burst big huge bubbles.. ...but someone had to do it! -Phil

VibeGT_2003 · Post by **VibeGT_2003** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 2:37 pm

MY MOM CAN BEAT YOUR MOM!!! LOL

DABEAR95 · Post by **DABEAR95** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:56 am

Take two identical engine's/driving duties and the one making more HP per cubic inch is more stressed. Bottom line.In this case, the engines are not identical. The 2ZZ has unique cylinder liners, cylinder head, etc. Designed for its intended use.In my opinion, I think the 1ZZ would be a more reliable engine for someone who wishes the vehicle last 250K miles or more. Based on KISS. There is a lot going on in the 2ZZ.The biggest reason they changed the bore and stroke on the 2ZZ was to allow for bigger valves. They needed a bit bigger cylinder to install bigger valves (a big key to NA power) to reach the magic 100HP per Litre.They could have turned the same RPM with the stroke of the 1ZZ. Many other things would need to be changed however.Jason

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:22 am

does anyboday have a power output graph of both 1zz and 2zz? both engines have been out a while, there must be some out there. I would love to see the overlays of both engines. I wonder if 2zz develops more hp/torque at all rpms.

HIGHREV · Post by **HIGHREV** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 3:12 am

Go to MatrixVibe.Net they have some dyno tests for both engines.Here goes the 2zz works harded at lower rpms.seems they are similarTorque 1ZZ 2ZZ2500 106 1043000 104 1063500 106 1084000 109 1094250 114-peak 1104500 112 1035000 108 1035500 104 976000 101 976500 91 1117000 - 116-peak7500 - 1088000 - 988250 - 93Hp 1ZZ 2ZZ2500 50 503000 60 603500 70 724000 84 854500 96 855000 103 985500 110 1036000 115-peak 1126500 102 1387000 - 155-peak7500 - 1538000 - 1508250 - 147Please go look at the results yourself, these are my interpretations of the charts. They are what I read between the lines.Torque: They are almost equal through 4000-4500then the 2ZZ goes down a little and the 1ZZ goes to peak, after the 1ZZ goes to redline the 2ZZ goes to peak.HP They are almost equal through 4000. after that the 1ZZ pulls ahead a bit while the 2ZZ doesn't pull past until 1ZZ redline.I feel that during ordinary driving they are worked or stressed the same. The 2ZZ was designed to handle the higher engine speed and stress it may see in the higher rpm. I also agree with the theory that more moving parts can affect its reliability (more parts= more potential things to go wrong)These results are obviously wheel results. You will also see the effects of the mods.

HIGHREV · Post by **HIGHREV** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 3:14 am

sorry about my chart, the spaces between the values disappeared after I posted.

canadavibegt · Post by **canadavibegt** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:38 pm

quote:I found the quote below in another post and it raised some questions. Is it true that a Base Vibe's Engine can be so overworked that it would die out much faster than the GT? I have a Base Vibe so of course this has me worried. So simply having a GM product gets me that discount? Do i have to prove something other than pointing at my car?I'm not sure what color yet. They have an Envy at the dealer that I like, but I don't want the attention of an offbeat color car. I'll probably do moon & tunes and monotone...i'm still debating whether to go GT or not. I am afraid the engine in the standard would be overworked, and the last overworked engine I drove (a 4 Cylinder 2.2 in an 89 Buick Century Sedan: 0-60 in 20 secs) died at 120,000.I'm just graduating college and have a decent job almost lined up so i am excited about getting a new car! I'm not from a family or have an upbringing where things like new cars are very common, so the idea of getting one makes my heart race (i'm a nerd!)Comparing an engine made in 1989 to a state of the art high output Japanese built engine is like comparing a banana to a watermelon. (there not even close)... I have previously owned a Toyota and my brother still ownes his 1982ish toyota pickup (4banger) He nver looks after it... it still has the same oil in it from about 2 years ago and it still runs. It has over 250 000 km on it.....Do not worry if you look after the engine. (regular oil changes etc.) it should last for a very long time.

BrentDev · Post by **BrentDev** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:42 am

High Rev - Thanks for your post. I have been looking for those numbers (guess I wasnt looking hard enough )I really dont know how often I would run it past 6k. When I test drove the GT, I almost had to mentally "demand" myself to run it up that high (since with my Vette - it rarely goes past 4500 or so....unless I am trying to "burn the carbon out" )I need to go back and drive the base car. Just trying to convince myself which car to get. I HIGHLY doubt that the Mrs. would let me plunk down 3500 next year to strap on a s/c. So - I am kinda thinking go with the 2ZZ now and enjoy the high-tech engine. (Only seems to be a $1k difference) But - STRICTLY looking at the numbers, I shouldnt FEEL much of a driving difference SO LONG as I keep the car Only other difference Oh - and props here to Quikag. He's helped to convince me to get a Vibe - and referred me here from the vette forum. How about this for a comparison? Anyone done a insurance comparison between base and GT?Sorry for the string of questions......

Frosty · Post by **Frosty** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:27 am

quote:How about this for a comparison? Anyone done a insurance comparison between base and GT?...I'll bite on this one first. My insurance company didn't list any difference a year ago. Just give yours a quick call and give them even three different vehicles for comparison. They won't mind.Otherwise....The GT requires premium gas is the other big difference other than standard alloy's.My base is plenty fast for a family car, if that is it's primary purpose. When I first got it I had to readjust my speed sensors between my ears as I was always cruising 15 mph over the limit around town. I don't race people, but I don't waste time either, it is funny to blow by someone at one light and then act non chalant as they push their car to make sure they go faster at the next light. They don't expect a little wagon to zip out ahead and they feel threatened I guess. It is also very cheap to run, I go two weeks between fill ups. I suppose that the nut of it is, you can't go wrong with this car, regardless of what you choose. Don't know if that helps you decide. I have a buddy trying to decide between a new 2004 Toyota Sienna 8 passenger and a Honda Odessy. He asked the Honda Salesperson to help him decide, to sell him on the Honda. The Honda guy said, it is a tough choice, you can't go wrong.Same thing on the Vibe.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:27 am

quote: One thing that is already proven without a doubt is that the 2ZZ makes 50 more rated horsepower than the 1ZZ.Gosh!.....QUIK, you sound very very certain of this!!! I believe we have already decided and for the most part, PROVEN, that the 1zz is definately under-rated by 10HP . i hate to burst big huge bubbles.. ...but someone had to do it! -PhilAnd you're saying the 2zz isn't underrated too? I wasn't talked wheel horspower or an extrapolation of wheel horsepower to flywheel horsepower, I was talking RATED horsepower. Please find me a brochure that has the 1ZZ in the Vibe RATED at 140hp. While, it may make 140hp, it's not RATED at 140hp. Jeez.I would have to say my bubble is far from burst.

NY Pete · Post by **NY Pete** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:59 am

Peronally, I think it's all a mute point when the 1zz S/C comes out. That's the main reason I opted for the base. Less complexity, power at lower RPM range (especially with S/C). To each their own, my personal decision was for the 1zz (with the intent of adding the S/C when it is released).PeteP.S. Plus my car doesn't beep when backing up. haha... j/k

DABEAR95 · Post by **DABEAR95** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:36 am

quote:Oh - and props here to Quikag. He's helped to convince me to get a Vibe - and referred me here from the vette forum. Sorry for the string of questions......Check out a VW Golf or Jetta/Jetta wagon TDI also.90HP but 165TQ and over 50MPG on the freeway. I recently got 54MPG through the Appalachian mountains on the way to/from Georgia with my GOLF.With a Chip it can have 120HP and 200TQ at the wheels!Yes, it is fun! And even in stock form it rockets ahead of the Vibe until 40MPH.For more info see http://www.tdiclub.com Depends on the space you need, looks, etc. I use the Vibe for work and back, but when my fiancÃ©e and I go someplace together we always take the Golf. Jason

BrentDev · Post by **BrentDev** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:39 pm

No doubt - the Jetta Wagon was a tough close-competition option. The youngster in me also wanted a Wrangler.....- but I can get the GM family discount coupled with the 0% financing - it kinda makes everything slant towards the Vibe.Edit - and Jason....you mean that when you and the Mrs go on a date you dont take your Z????? We always try to take the Vette together whenever we can dump the kid on a babysitter

NY Pete · Post by **NY Pete** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 11:34 pm

No doubt, the VW TDI motor can be a torque monster... and you can surprise a LOT of folks at the 1/8th mile track!! Pete