calling all cold weather drivers!!

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:35 am

LOL! Thanks, Frosty, I needed that. I keep all those little bits of paper because I never wanna be audited. That, and I enjoy being right. It's much easier to be right when you have the documentation. I'll be looking into this GM Inside News for sure!

red · Post by **red** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:12 am

what i meant by the vw diesel question was that it is a fairly low powered vehicle (and yes it is heavy on torque) and it too would suffer from the same cold climate/wind effects that your awd does...actually regular gas powered non turbo vw beetles/jettas would also...my point is if other "low powered" vehicles aren't suffering..yours shouldnt either! btw i still think its in the tranny! i dont think they're trying too hard to fix it!!.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:19 am

I agree, if Pontiac's argument had any merit, then it would not just apply to the AWD Vibe.The dealership claims they had their tranny guy take it apart and it's all wonderful.The diagnostics are all coming back normal, therefore the car is operating as designed. So, they don't know how to fix it. ARGH!

red · Post by **red** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:32 am

just checked with my local Pontiac Dealership: Aurora Motors in Fairbanks, Ak...talked to Vicki Cosman, a service advisor there, asked here if there were any tsb's on awd vibe operating in cold weather climates...she said no, and if there were any recent updates, it would be in programming software adjustments and they would automatically be downloaded into the car's computer when they hooked up their equipment to it to scan and fix...she said that the statement that it was underpowered and couldn't handle the cold "didnt sound right" and that person you were talking to "didnt understand the problem" to make a statement such as that...she had never heard of that issue before.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 6:57 am

Right, there hasn't been any official documentation come out from Pontiac because they've only had a few cases of this, and they don't know how to fix it.I was told that there have only been 2 or 3 software updates to the Vibe, and mine are all current.I would like to personally speak to the Vibe owners that have had this problem. I wonder if I could get that information from my dealer? I don't know if they'd give that info up.I think they understand that there IS a problem. They have physically witnessed it, but they don't know why it's doing what it's doing. I don't care, I JUST WANT IT FIXED!!!

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:52 am

When they ran the diagnostics last week, they noticed the fuel pressure fluctuating. They replaced the fuel filter. They ran the diagnostics again, and the fuel pressure was stable.Whatever it is, it did it less on the way home, as it was a balmy -12Â°C. So instead of cycling every 45 seconds, it would cycle every 5 minutes or so. Yay?

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:22 am

They claim they did that already. The ran all the diagnostics, everything came back within spec, therefore the car is operating as it is designed to do.I'm sorry if I sound stubborn, but I'm just parroting back the crap I get from the dealer.Didn't hear from them today. I guess I'll phone them tomorrow, and let them know I contacted Transport Canada, APA, and CBC Marketplace (a consumer watchdog show). Maybe that will light a fire under them.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:46 am

Hmm, where can I get one? And if they're $60 US, that's like almost $100 CDN.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:49 am

Right. I think I'll try Canadian Tire. I worked at one in high school -- they'll take anything back.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:58 am

HOLY CRAP I found the code readers at canadiantire.ca they are expensive!OBD II ScanTool (tm) Cartridge C$299ScanTool (tm) Diagnostic Analyzer C$289GM ScanTool (tm) code reader C$176Yikes!

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:31 am

No kidding. I don't think I'll order it online ... I'm going to a city on Saturday, I'll pick one up there, if they have. I'd better be sure to get the right one for that kind of $$$.Where do I find the port to plug the code reader into?

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:01 am

Good deal. If I get one, I'll post my results.Well, I think we've exhausted this topic for tonight, but stay tuned folks, this story will continue

red · Post by **red** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:18 pm

would you consider taking it to that toyota dealer you mentioned and have them run scans on it and/or test it and see what they say? same car, same relays etc.. i know that it is a ways away and they treated you not very nicely but it might cost you the same, maybe less, to have them test it then to buy a scanner to hook up to your onboard diagnostics center...they might be even more knowledgable/efficent than the gm dealership who is new on this car...i hope it is a fuel pump 'cause that would be a quick fix...and you could get on the road fast...maybe the toyota dealership could come up with different ideas as to what is causing the issue..sometimes a different set of eyes can see things in a newer, broader light

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:38 am

Woo Hooo! We've got action now, people.Unfortunately, nobody informed the dealer.Got a call back from Peter @ Transport Canada. He has talked with GM who is very interested in returning me to "Happy Customer Status," and also thinks that judging from the dealers comments about cold, they don't know what they're talkin' about. So, Peter tells me, "Take the car back to the dealer, they are expecting you."I phoned the dealer. "What? Transport Canada?" I guess GM forgot to phone them. But, I'm sure it will all work out now, especially now that somebody higher up at GM is involved.Haven't heard from Jeff Strausser yet. I'm a little disappointed about that. Considering I've gotten emails back from Marketplace:"I have forwarded your suggestion to Marketplace's researchers. If one of them decides to pursue the issues you raise, they will be in touch." and from APA: "I have not heard of similar complaints regarding the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix. ... If you get nowhere with the manufacturer and you can prove that it is a premature failure and manufacturing defect that should be covered under warranty, you may consider taking them to free binding arbitration."

ShawnJ · Post by **ShawnJ** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:12 am

Hello. I just signed up on this site. I have a new Shadow color GT, has been really fun so far. I know it is nowhere near as cold as it is there here in Oklahoma, but I can sympathize with you from previous experiences with a Chrylser product (talk about nightmares!). Anyway, I hope they solve your problems, but if they dont, and you still think you could somehow possibly have problems, there are some nice add-ons available to boost the power of the awd vibes as well as others. I had problems with my 98 yukon downshifting alot under loads up hill, or at high speeds and rpms. I ended up adding a few things that not only helped the fuel mileage but stopped the downshifting by boosting power too. Some things you "could" consider:*K&N air filter OR a K&N filter charger kit, the filter charger kit is awesome when added on, lots more horsepower on a V8, but even minimal gains on a 4 cyl adds up quick. *Injen at Injen.com also makes some accessories.*An engine block heater available from GM or Toyota might help on cold mornings with warming up faster where you are.*A supercharger is expensive but makes an unbelievable difference on any vehicle it is installed on. *Some parts stores carry what is called a Tornado, it is supposed to boost power, and fuel mileage, a friend of mine uses one and swears by it. Very easy to install.Again, these are just random ideas I thought of that could help if they dont ever find anything else out for you. I think there is a problem, they just havent found it yet. You might even want to run some really good fuel injector cleaner thru the system just in case you somehow have gotten some carbon deposits in the system somewhere, and it doesnt show up until its under full load on the highway. I cant buy what they told you that that car was not made for those conditions. As long as the engine and components come up to operating temperature, the thermostat opens fully, then everything should be fine. A piece of machinery doesnt care how hot or cold it is if everything else is ok. Makes me also wonder if you could be suffering from some fuel or fuel line tring to freeze up. There are some additives you can get at any parts store or walmart to just try that are very inexpensive. Sorry for the long post, must be the ex-race car driver in me!!!! Am interested in knowing your final outcome and will keep watching.ShawnOne more thing----a technician should be able to hook up the troubleshooting code reader unit, and go for a long drive with you on the highway, it will read out every thing the engine does, how each cylinder is firing, the fuel mixture to air ratios and every single thing the computer controls. He can even adjust things from the controller as you drive, including transmission shift points and ranges of operation. You just have to get them to "want to". Sounds like you have been going down all the right paths tho. Best of luck.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:37 am

Salsa, you're right that was a great post. Could you imagine life without a block heater? There aren't enough tow-truck drivers!Anyway, I got a call back from the service mgr at the dealership. Peter @ Transport Canada called Jack @ GM in Oshawa, ON. I guess Jack is one of the few within GM who is capable of forming his own thoughts, because he's recognized that there is a problem here, and is determined to get to the bottom of it. So, between Jack & Krista?, the regional manager, they are going to bring in a Vibe AWD to compare my car to. So, if you've got a Vibe AWD on order & it suddenly becomes delayed in shipping, it's here in Saskatchewan, as part of a science experiment.I don't know when this is all going to happen; Jack is supposed to phone me today to get my side of the story.So right now, I feel like there is justice for the little guy (or girl), you just gotta call the right people.

Frosty · Post by **Frosty** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:54 am

Welcome aboard ShawnJ! Glad to have another racer/mechanic here.We have been told that the AWD drivetrain can't handle anymore power, without much detail. So the super and filter chargers, CAI's are not recommended for those models. Would love to see someone try anyway

Frosty · Post by **Frosty** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:55 am

We are crossing our fingers for you

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:56 am

Gee, and I was starting to consider installing something until you said that, Frosty. I sure don't want to be screwing my car up anymore than NUMMI did!

Frosty · Post by **Frosty** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:35 am

quote:Gee, and I was starting to consider installing something until you said that, Frosty. I sure don't want to be screwing my car up anymore than NUMMI did!For sure, everything I have read says that the AWD drivetrain can't handle anymore power. We were discussing this in this thread http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id ... 5640#15640 about making the Vibe a rally car.

Post by **NSimkins** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:10 am

quote:Why cant they handle anymore power?The AWD system can't handle the additional power....http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=1926

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:36 am

quote:Neve rknow, they might just give you another Vibe. Wouldn't that be something -- I almost wonder if that's not what will happen. They are supposed to do some head-to-head comparisons between my Vibe and another Vibe or Matrix. So what if they know it doesn't run right, but don't know what to fix? It would probably be a lot easier to just give me a new car, strip the old one down and rebuild it.Then again, it would have been fixed long ago if the appropriate diagnostics had been done back in November.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 9:59 pm

.quote:Well, put it this way.That Ranger I told you about, I believe Ford took it to a Tech Center and tore it apart to see what the problem was with it. If yours ends up like that, where they can not fix it, thats probobly what GM will do. Hmmm, that wouldn't break my heart too much. I don't care what they do with it, as long as it gets fixed. That's all I've been asking for all along. Gee, I make it sound so simple.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:34 am

quote:Haven't heard from Jeff Strausser yet. I'm a little disappointed about that. Jeff called me today ... quite concerned about this problem, no one in the US has reported this. If the GM Canada people don't resolve this, I am supposed to phone him back. He's got a few "heavy-hitters" that could possibly help me. Oh, and he's in sunny California at the plant right now. just because I'm here freezing.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:29 am

quote:You are talking to the right people and I think that it is good.I think it's good too, but the DEALERSHIP should be the right people. You shouldn't have to bother upper management with a problem that can & should be resolved at the retail level. If it can't be resolved by the retailer, then THEY should get upper management involved. At least that's the way I think it should work, that's what we strive for where I work. We just have a lot less layers of management, so a lot of times the customer ends up coming to the engineer for technical support.

935684 · Post by **935684** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 9:44 pm

I just came across this thread again. I hadn't realized that your problem still hadn't been fixed. I just want to confirm that this problem isn't caused by climate. I'm in rural central Ontario. Daytime temps often have been -20 to -40 Celsius this winter. My AWD downshifts only while climbing hills, and upshifts near the crest. The only cold weather problem I've faced is the underpowered CCA rating of the battery (310), but that's been fixed with a free replacement by GM (560 CCA). I now use an electric battery blanket for good measure (20 W), and run it whenever the car is parked. You seem to be finally getting a sympathetic hearing from GM, and I hope it results in a permanent repair. If all else fails, Salsa's (I think)suggestion about the APA is a good idea. They often use unconventional tactics, but they seem to get results. By the way, another person to contact is Phil Edmonston. He founded the APA, though he no longer retains his connection. However, he still publishes the perennial favourite, Lemon-Aid, the series of car guides. Here's a link to his Website:http://www.lemonaidcars.com/Good luck.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:08 pm

Thanks for the sympathetic ear. Glad to know that this problem is not climate related, but it shouldn't be, because as ShawnJ pointed out, this is still a machine, and it should operate no matter what the external conditions are. However, I must have some luck because I have never had ANY problems with my battery, my car starts right up all the time.I saw Phil on the news the other day, but I never thought of him as a possible advocate for my cause.Anyway, I think I've finally appeared on the radar screen with enough high-up managers within GM in 2 countries, so I should be a satisfied customer before too long. I have another appointment at the dealership this week, the District Service Manager is coming down (with a second Vibe, I think), so the ball is definitely rolling.My only concern now is that this Arctic high pressure system stays with us. Just my luck, spring would arrive and I won't get this fixed until next October. By then it'll be too late, my warranty will be long gone.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 4:51 am

Just got back from my appointment with the DSM (District Service Manager). No real news to report. The DSM has never driven another Vibe AWD, so she can't say whether or not this is normal. She will attempt to find another one to compare. Meanwhile, the temperature is rising, and my car is starting to run better. The sales people at my dealership are really mad that there hasn't been any action, so at least they are on my side.

Project Shadow · Post by **Project Shadow** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 2:27 pm

I have the base 5 speed so no tranny troubles and the power seems very sufficient but not snakey or anything. I have read many reviews that say the 4 spped auto is responsive and the AWD provided decent performance in all conditions and inclines. I hope your problem is found because it does seem to be abnormal.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:58 am

Your're right, the Vibe AWD is responsive & has sufficient power, except mine, which is basically hooped, but no one knows which part of it is hooped, because my car ain't talkin' ... no codes, no "Check Engine" light, nothing.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:20 am

quote:I think it may be an air idler motor, TPS, or something to do with the fuel/air mixture systems. That is my logical guess.Wouldn't any/all of those things trigger a "Check Engine" light, or give off a code? Unfortunately, we're now back to the "olden days" when the mechanic replaced parts until the problem stopped ... but GM does not seem excited about randomly replacing every component in my car.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:30 am

The Vibe has never stalled & performs perfectly at speeds less than 80 km/h, or when the temperature is above -5C (23F). Starts great, although I'm starting to wonder if I don't have that battery problem Salsa's been talking about. I might have to jump on that bandwagon, too.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sun Mar 16, 2003 10:11 am

quote:The whole deal with the fuel mileage and rpm's, no that has nothing to do with the battery. Right, I know, but I think I'm starting to develop the battery problem that Salsa & others have complained about. In the last few days, it seems to be taking a second or two longer to start the car.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:22 pm

Just thought I'd post an update to keep everyone in the loop on my progress. The DSM has not yet driven another AWD, so I'm still waiting. In the meantime, I sent an email today to Phil Edmonston of the Lemon-Aid books...Of course, the weather here is above freezing during the day, and only a little below freezing at night. This means the car is going to operate normally. I'm just aggravated that by the time I get some attention to my problem, the weather decides not to cooperate.

Frosty · Post by **Frosty** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:28 am

quote:I'm just aggravated that by the time I get some attention to my problem, the weather decides not to cooperate.Pretty rare that a canadian complains that spring is coming. My old Honda had an ABS failure only when -30 C. It took two winters for them to figure out that the ABS computer was failing. You will be ready for next year and hopefully so will GM.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 11:05 am

quote:Pretty rare that a canadian complains that spring is coming. I know, I almost feel like a freak saying that, but hey, what's another 6 weeks of winter??I'm sure that this will get resolved in the next couple of weeks ... if it doesn't, I'll get my "you-don't-wanna-mess-with-me" attitude warmed up & ready to go!

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:06 am

UPDATE: No news yet, but I got a little impatient today because Transport Canada decided to follow up on my file ... so I phoned the GM guy that TC phoned, hoping to find out more info. I learned 2 very interesting facts:1. If you take your car in for service of some problem, even if your car goes over the warranty time/distance (60000 km, in my case), as long as there is documenation that it was brought in for that problem before the warranty expired, Pontiac will continue to treat the problem as a warranty issue (hurray!).2. Supposedly, all Pontiac products for sale in Canada are tested at Kapuskasing.

935684 · Post by **935684** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:21 am

They may test Pontiacs in Kap, but the Vibe is really a 2003 Corolla. I'm beginning to suspect that Toyotas are tested in the banana belt.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:27 am

quote: I'm beginning to suspect that Toyotas are tested in the banana belt. I'm getting that feeling too. Today it was hovering around the freezing mark. I passed through a river valley, and my cruise just totally died going back up the hill. It had only done that when it was quite cold out, before. I think that is tied to my other problems.My car's got a bad disease ... many symptoms, but no cure in sight.

Frosty · Post by **Frosty** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:26 am

We never did get the answer about the cold weather testing in Kap. We put that question out there in the item about the weak batteries but no one had an answer.....Haven't heard anything about the batteries either for that matter.

935684 · Post by **935684** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:42 am

Speaking of the battery, my new 560 CCA one is a dream. Mind you, it's relatively warm now, but I was able to try it out after a few -20 C nights, and it turned the engine over nicely each morning. I think the dealer gave it to me because I was a pest. I've also got an electric battery blanket now. I'm going to splice the cable, and operate both the blanket and block heater next winter. Fortunately, by then I'll be living in a place in which hydro consumption is included in the rent.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:44 am

I'm betting that I'll be needing a new battery before too long. My car is starting to take longer & longer to turn over. I don't know how many turns, but more than it was 8 months ago.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:15 pm

I wouldn't say it is giving me trouble, just beginning to show wear. Pretty sad for an 8 month old battery to be worn.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 9:45 am

quote:We never did get the answer about the cold weather testing in Kap. I got a call back from the DSM today. My car is going to another dealership later this week for some more testing. She's thinking that this dealer will have more luck finding the problem. And, there's a guy in Kap who drives a Vibe and is going to attempt to replicate my problem, just to prove it is my car that's the problem, and not all Vibe's in general (duh, I said that already!). So, I don't know if there is an official testing program for the Vibe in Kap now, but there will be some work done on them (specifically, my problem ).

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 11:31 pm

quote:Are they going to give you a vehicle to replace yours while it is in service?yes, they always have ... for that,

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:40 am

The first time I got a truck, the second time a Cavalier, then this time ??? It goes in tomorrow, I hope.

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 6:18 am

I agree! Just talked to the dealer, and he's talking "rental" ... he'd better mean "loaner," 'cause I'm not paying!!

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:57 pm

Update: Car went to a dealership in the city ... the service manager took it for a drive yesterday, and the car did its thing. So, now that they agree there's something wrong, they're determined to fix it.I hope they are quick, because the Yukon courtesy vehicle will put me in the poor house with the way it sucks back the gas!!

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 12:13 am

Good to hear!!! It's nice when they really admit there's a problem!

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 2:37 am

Yes, I really enjoyed the heated leather seats this morning. It was -10 C (14F) this morning. There sure are a lot of gadgets & buttons on the Yukon. I might need to read the manual!!